Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[Deacon_Ed_B]

…Hi there Deacon Ed B…I am doing great and moving forward in the things of God…and loving every single minute…SO many areas of serving opportunity at the new church…St Peter the Apostle…God Bless you all…

I am most happy to hear all you have said. Know that you will remain in my prayers in your walk of faith.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[wardrandolph]

Hello,Greetings in the name of our Lord.I have been reading New Outpourings of the Spirit,by Joseph Ratzinger (If you don’t know who He is,boy are you in the wrong place ).I would reccomend "everyone"take a break,read the book,come back and lets discuss what the Holy Father has to say on this.May our Lord,streathen and keep you all.

 

[Trad_Dad]

“Charismatic Catholics” are basically protestant wannabes. It’s a shame that Catholic bishops in this country allow such scandalous practices to go on under the guise of Catholicism. “Speaking in tongues” as charismatics call it is a disgrace to protestantism, and is an absolute outrage when veiled as Catholocism. When the apostles spoke in tongues, they simply preached, and everyone regardless of their native language understood. When chasimatics “speak in tongues” they babble uncontrolably and noone understands. It is at best a form of hypnosis (hypnosis incidently has been condemned by Catholic theologians), and at worst is quite possibly a form of demonic possesion. And that’s the sort of nonsense these people want to pass off as a form “Catholic renewal”. Shame on any bishop who allows this scandal in his diocese.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

“Charismatic Catholics” are basically protestant wannabes. It’s a shame that Catholic bishops in this country allow such scandalous practices to go on under the guise of Catholicism. “Speaking in tongues” as charismatics call it is a disgrace to protestantism, and is an absolute outrage when veiled as Catholocism. When the apostles spoke in tongues, they simply preached, and everyone regardless of their native language understood. When chasimatics “speak in tongues” they babble uncontrolably and noone understands. It is at best a form of hypnosis (hypnosis incidently has been condemned by Catholic theologians), and at worst is quite possibly a form of demonic possesion. And that’s the sort of nonsense these people want to pass off as a form “Catholic renewal”. Shame on any bishop who allows this scandal in his diocese.

Read what St. Paul has to say about the Spirit praying for you, I think its Romans, Chapter 8. Maybe this will help you change your mind.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[latinmass]

Read what St. Paul has to say about the Spirit praying for you, I think its Romans, Chapter 8. Maybe this will help you change your mind.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

Read what Fr. Echert has to say on speaking in tongues on the EWTN website in the Q&A section, maybe you will change your mind. The gifts the Holy Ghost gave to start the Church are not necessary anymore with the Church being established, that is why you do not see them in the SAME fashion today.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

In this case, I think I will follow Scripture. And the last two popes also.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
PS I am sure we can find opinions on both sides backed up by clergy. How do you discern which one to follow. For me, if its in Scripture, and the present and last pope are both supporters of this renewal, I definitely know which way I would go.

 

[latinmass]

In this case, I think I will follow Scripture. And the last two popes also.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
PS I am sure we can find opinions on both sides backed up by clergy. How do you discern which one to follow. For me, if its in Scripture, and the present and last pope are both supporters of this renewal, I definitely know which way I would go.

Thank you for acknowledging those in the Church who speak without vagueness. But, don’t confuse the last two popes words on this movement which were not to alienate these Catholics, with the abuses that are often happening in Mass with this movement. These popes are fine with the N.O. also, but would not be ok with the abuses that are often in it. Do you think Pope Benedict will ever have a charismatic healing Mass. Never. If you want to “speak in tongues” in your bedroom, fine, but don’t disrupt the Lord’s Mass. As the last words of the last chapter of Revelation, states, there is nothing to be added, only plagues for those who try to add anything, the book is finished, don’t leave out this scripture.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

As I said, you can find opinions on both sides. I do not however presume to speak for any pope, other than to acknowledge their guidance and shepherding of the Universal Church, and am satisfied that the path I am following is correct.
Prayers & blessings.
Deacon Ed B

 

[latinmass]

As I said, you can find opinions on both sides. I do not however presume to speak for any pope, other than to acknowledge their guidance and shepherding of the Universal Church, and am satisfied that the path I am following is correct.
Prayers & blessings.
Deacon Ed B

In love, I will respond by pointing out that someone who was so easily fooled by the false apparitions in Medj. should not be satisfied so easily, the abuses in this movement, and this movement itself is fooling you.

 

[deborahssong]

Greetings in the Lord!

 ONCE AND FOR ALL.........we who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit do not beleive we have all of the answers.....we Do have the One, just as all who have made Jesus Lord,  who has given us the power to have victory in whatever we may encounter.  Faith is a gift,,,,,the move of the Holy Spirit is a gift........it is up to each of us to receive it........He  is there for us in power and majesty......HIs word says so!  That again is the key......it is fine to be so endoctrined in the church's policies, doctrine, and such.......but if one doesnt KNOW the word of God as well?  we are hurting our selves......what Jesus did on the cross is a finished work!    Please read Mark 16.......is this just for the apostles or disciples?  I dont think so since Jesus says go and make disiciples........and do we really think that this power to lay hands on the sick and THEY WILL recover....do we think that was just for them? The Blood of Jesus opened the door for all healing....Isaiah 53......by HIs stripes we were healed....Yes it is literal.....
 The power of the Holy Spirit is a gift.......it is up to us whether we receive it or not.  Paul talked and taught this.....he even said ....do not stop the use of this gifts in the church......however he also said do not abuse this gift.......there it is again.....gift!  Paul even told them he prayed in the Holy Spirit even more than they did...................I have said this on here before....and since my actviity with the cathoilic church of late, I have seen this as well.     we will have whatever we say.....when we say well I just find that hard to believe.....guess what?     this is NOT faith by the way.....Read Hebrews 11. That move of God will not happen for you......it is a FAITH issue.....a gift....so when we see many christians in dire strates....I personally beleive they have never got it!  Religion is just that....religion.....the pharisees thought they knew everything folks!  we must stop boxing God in.......and my thoguhts are? if we want people to return to the catholic church that are protestants, once catholic.....we better start getting the word of God taught on a  deeper level in the churches!  I have recently met "leaders" in the catholic church whom have said the same exact thing I just said......God s word is for all who beleive in Jesus Christ....He is the only way......
may the Lord bless each of you in your personal pursuit of HIM!!!!  His word says that"those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,  He fills......." are we hungry...........it is to our benefit.....amen.

Deborah
Phil 4;13

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

In love, I will respond by pointing out that someone who was so easily fooled by the false apparitions in Medj. should not be satisfied so easily, the abuses in this movement, and this movement itself is fooling you.

As I have said in other posts, God can use anything he wants to to bring about good. Simply because he is God. If and when (and I do not believe this will ever happen) The magisterium says that the Charismatic renewal is not to be participated in and is wrong, under obedience, I will be among the first to totally do what they say. Until that time, I am comfortable knowing that there is a scriptural basis for this and that the present and last pope have both supported it and thats good enough for me.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Margarite]

I am just going to address what I gathered in the last few posts, don’t yell at me if I misunderstood

Deborah,
I totally agree, people who just follow the rules, without following the spirit of the law, are dead. Their spirituality is dead. That is why all Catholics are charged with “Knowing, loving and serving God” First we have to know the rules, and the whys, then we can love God, then after we know him and love him, we can finally serve him and that is how we reach heaven.
Any law without regard for the spirit of the law, only kills. So yes, the spirit is very important.
But with an organization as large as the Church, and that has lasted as long as the Church, most of the questions, and the relying on people’s good sense and good intentions, must be taken out. That is why the Catechism is so huge, because they have to include all the exceptions in the Catechism to convey the spirit of the law.
Such as the no eating for an hour before Holy Communion, well, they had to write in the Catechism that the exceptions were for medical reasons, you could eat or drink. Well, people should have automatically known that, I mean God doesn’t want you to die because the Church requires you to go to mass. But with a Church as large as the Catholic Church, there would be sticklers who wouldn’t and then would sue the Church for getting sick or death.

Anyways, there must first be laws before their can be a spirit of the law.
Also, you said that it may be good that there is no leader because people may follow that person away from the Church. Well, if you believe that, then I think the CM at least needs a governing council, there needs to be some person, or people who can answer questions and give accreditation to each group. Sort of like the Knights of Columbus. They are a group, they have a leader, they have mini groups that must follow the leader, and who have to get permission to start from the leader. (leader may be plural, but there is a leader/group that leads).

I mean, even you CM people have admitted to abuse, you admit that the abuse can look allot like the good, well, there needs to be some way of telling. There needs to be some way for a new person to tell what is good or bad without asking the unreliable bishops.

Second,
TradDad,
Don’t come in and make sweeping remarks, especially on your first post.
I must tell you that I thought exactly the way you do, but I don’t believe that all the people on this thread are evil, or possessed, or people who don’t follow the Church’s teachings about hypnosis.
Get to know these people better, then after a while, you can say what you like, but don’t make such a sweeping statement at first please.

Third,
When the apostles first spoke in tongues, on Pentecost Sunday, they spoke in their native tongue, but each person heard them in their own native tongue. They did not need an interpreter, they did not become overwhelmed and unaware of their surroundings, they did not become overjoyed, they simply were able to speak the word of God more clearly, and they were understood by all. These gifts were wonderful because it allowed them to preach to all nations, but the tongues that you CM people speak of is quite different. You speak gibberish, though it may mean something to you, it does no good for anyone else. You become overjoyed and overwhelmed, you become very much into the moment and you may be helping yourself, but how are you helping anyone else?
Please correct me if I describe being “slain by the Spirit” incorrectly. But to me, from what I have heard, it does not even resemble the speaking in tongues that the apostles did.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

]When the apostles first spoke in tongues, on Pentecost Sunday, they spoke in their native tongue, but each person heard them in their own native tongue. They did not need an interpreter, they did not become overwhelmed and unaware of their surroundings, they did not become overjoyed, they simply were able to speak the word of God more clearly, and they were understood by all. These gifts were wonderful because it allowed them to preach to all nations, but the tongues that you CM people speak of is quite different. You speak gibberish, though it may mean something to you, it does no good for anyone else. You become overjoyed and overwhelmed, you become very much into the moment and you may be helping yourself, but how are you helping anyone else? ]

When I first started in the Charismatic movement, my big hang up was exactly this, speaking in tongues. I did not say this to anyone. After the 2nd or 3rd meeting, one in the group came up to me and handed me a slip of paper with a reference to Romans 8:26-27. saying, “This will answer your question”. This is what it said, "The Spirit too helps us in our own weakness, for we do not know how to pray a we ought; but the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in speech. He who searches hearts knows what the Spirit means, for the Spirit intercedes for the saints as God himself wills." This was the unsolicited answer to the question I did not verbally express. Coincidence? I do know that there are none with God.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[japhy]

When I first started in the Charismatic movement, my big hang up was exactly this, speaking in tongues. I did not say this to anyone. After the 2nd or 3rd meeting, one in the group came up to me and handed me a slip of paper with a reference to Romans 8:26-27. saying, “This will answer your question”. This is what it said, "The Spirit too helps us in our own weakness, for we do not know how to pray a we ought; but the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in speech. He who searches hearts knows what the Spirit means, for the Spirit intercedes for the saints as God himself wills." This was the unsolicited answer to the question I did not verbally express. Coincidence? I do know that there are none with God.

It is possible they recognized your body language, the way you reacted to people speaking in tongues. And it is also possible they know that speaking in tongues is the “big hang up” for most people investigating the Charismatic Renewal.

In my opinion, Romans 8:26 is not a prooftext for speaking in tongues, since speaking in tongues is a form of speech, and Paul is writing here than the Spirit intercedes for us when we do not know how to pray “with groanings that cannot be expressed in speech”. In the context of Romans 8:19-27, Romans 8:26-27 seems to explain how we “groan inwardly” along with the rest of creation in ways imperceptible to the ears. It doesn’t seem to me to mention speaking in tongues.

 

[DebChris]

Hello,Greetings in the name of our Lord.I have been reading New Outpourings of the Spirit,by Joseph Ratzinger (If you don’t know who He is,boy are you in the wrong place ).I would reccomend "everyone"take a break,read the book,come back and lets discuss what the Holy Father has to say on this.May our Lord,streathen and keep you all.

I think this is a good idea. The thread seems to be recycling much of what was addressed early in the thread.
Vatican II was comprised of the entire maigsterium.
Blessed John XXIII called for a “new Pentecost.”
References have been made to the Cathecism of the Catholic Church as well as to the Catholic Catechism of the United States and Scripture.
The mainline Protestant churches rejected the outpouring of the Holy Spirit which is why the Assembly of God and other Pentecostal Churches developed. God can pour out His grace on whomever He wants regardless of denomination
The Charismatic Renewal is only one of many movements of the Holy Spirit openly embraced by the magisterium of the Catholic Church. It has strengthened the faith of many. Isn’t that what we want? Why would I want to give up the richness of what the Catholic Church has to offer?

 

[Irish_Saints]

I’ll try to keep these brief:

Japhy: Bullseye! Right on target! Thank you!

Deborahssong: First off, thanks again for letting us know about your journey. Despite the friction over this particular hot-button topic, I am genuinely interested in how you’re doing.

Secondly, just a quick bit of advice; one of your statements sounded dangerously close to the “word-of-faith” doctrine, or so called “name it and claim it” crowd. This teaching is not endorsed by the Church (rather, it is actively and roundly condemned.)

Finally, with regard to the word of God (the written scriptures): it is not my intention to boast when I mention I’ve read through the scriptures in a variety of English translations, in Hebrew, in Greek, and am working through the Latin. The Catholic Church has always taught that “ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.” Admittedly, sound instruction has been lacking for the past generation or three, but that is slowly turning around. Far more important than knowing what the Scriptures say is knowing what they mean. And it is not always readily apparent on the face of the texts what that is. This is why the Church has final say in interpretting scripture, and not individuals. If the sacred writings were just that plainly self-evident, I don’t suppose we would have multiplied thousands of fractured groups, each claiming to rely solely on the “plain sense” of the words of holy writ. What we have now is, by any objective observation, a mess that has been 500 years in the making.

Stating that all we ultimately need is the Bible to resort to in order to resolve any differences, places us firmly back into Martin Luther’s folly.

Deacon Ed B: With all due respect sir, Pentecostal Protestants have for years appealed to that particular text in Romans as one of their proof texts for glossalalia. What seems to be missing is the clear context that St. Paul says these “groanings” are “inutterable” (some dynamic translations have rendered this to the effect of “too deep to be put into words.”) What this passage cannot be referring to is speaking (whether in one’s own native language, or in a supernaturally-endowed medium.)

DebChris: One major point I want to address is with regard to citing the Assemblies of God and other Pentecostal traditions (one cannot rightly call them “Churches” in the strictest sense) as proof that God can do whatever He pleases, etc. First, in the broadest possible sense, I actually agree with the statement, “God can do whatever He pleases.” Of course He can, He’s God! However, even when Israel royally fouled things up, even if they were chastised, taken into bondage and slavery, and so forth, He always held to His plan that salvation would come through this people. Never deviated from that!

Likewise, when Christ established the New Covenant, He established a people through whom He would affect His salvific plan. Yes, there have been times when the Catholic Church (or at least those at the helm of the Church) have really beached her upon the shoals, but He has never abandoned His position that salvation would come through His Church.

All this to say, God most certainly pours forth his grace in abundance on all who seek Him, but He will not actively endorse an individual, group or community that stands in open and visible distinction and rebellion from his chosen body.

In other words, citing the existance of the AoG or any other other non-Catholic organization as being God’s stamp of approval–of his divine “okeydokey”–is simply incorrect. This is eccuminism gone amok, and is not reflective of what the Catholic Church has consistently taught for two millenium.

 

[DebChris]

Irish Saints–The point I was trying to make is that the mainline churches to whom members of the Assembly of God originally belonged did not accept the charismata as valid. The Catholic Church does accept the charismata.
The Assembly of God and other pentecostal churches do not have the deep roots and teachings of the Catholic Church. The time I spent with their members has been a means of evangilization, a way of dispelling misconceptions they may have about the Catholic Church.
I like how a friend of mine worded it. Our non-Catholic brothers and sisters are indeed a part of the people of God. The difference is that they are living in the courtyard and we are living in the castle.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Gee Irish Saints, I am sure glad you set all of us straight. At least one in the crowd has all the answers. Are you in mensa.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Irish_Saints]

Gee Irish Saints, I am sure glad you set all of us straight. At least one in the crowd has all the answers. Are you in mensa.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B

A) You’re entirely welcome! Looks like my work here is finished!
2) Nope, not a Mensa member. Too stuffy, that lot! Not to mention, I’d have to dumb things down for them. Again…
iii) I get the impression someone’s being a bit…what’s the word I’m looking for… patronizing? Cavalier? Condescending? No, don’t tell me, it’ll come to me! Oh, did I mention…

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

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