Charismatic Roman Catholicism

[Joysong]

Deacon Ed B,

Your words are kind and supportive, and I do thank you. How often people forget that we are all one Body, with different parts and roles to play as we live our own paschal mystery.

You are a model of the vocation you have espoused, and I am truly edified.

 

[Joysong]

Irish Saints:

Nice dodge of LG 12, btw.

Your repeated use of sarcasm does make it difficult to respond to you. Incidentally, I don’t recall receiving an answer to my request for a source showing that the popes have issued warnings when they speak about CCR. As I suspected, there are none to be found.

Back to your allegation. To expect that an isolated text [which you are interpreting according to your private understanding of what the Bishops meant] is going to resolve your misgivings and animosity toward CCR, is to take this entire subject again off topic in order to debate LG 12. Though I am prepared and competent to give an answer, I doubt you would receive it, in lieu of your own interpretation. If you decide to remain with CAF, I suggest you begin another thread.

 

[Pani_Rose]

I think that it’s #1 where the origins of the charismatic movement falls quite short.

I find just the opposite, as all of them I know, are totally sold out to and support the teaching authority and majestarium of the Church. Also, they are very often daily mass goers, they go to adoration, and have a deep relationship in Scripture with Jesus, and a great devotion to Blessed Mother and the saints, not to mention their daily prayer life. I mean, how can they be less faithful to their faith?

 

[Joysong]

Pani Rose:

I find just the opposite, as all of them I know, are totally sold out to and support the teaching authority and magisterium of the Church. Also, they are very often daily mass goers, they go to adoration, and have a deep relationship in Scripture with Jesus, and a great devotion to Blessed Mother and the saints, not to mention their daily prayer life. I mean, how can they be less faithful to their faith?

St. James delivered a good reminder in today’s first reading.

… but no man can tame the tongue.
It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.
With it we bless the Lord and Father,
and with it we curse men
who are made in the likeness of God.

Not a single person in this thread who admits to being charismatic has replied with demeaning or insulting language, even though provoked. Yet some of the catholic ones who oppose charismatics have left little doubt in demonstrating their lack of charity. I would like to administer a polygraph test and ask how devoted they are to the practices you mentioned above, Pani Rose.

 

[beckycmarie]

Not a single person in this thread who admits to being charismatic has replied with demeaning or insulting language, even though provoked. Yet some of the catholic ones who oppose charismatics have left little doubt in demonstrating their lack of charity. I would like to administer a polygraph test and ask how devoted they are to the practices you mentioned above, Pani Rose.

Good point, Joysong. One surefire test of holiness and the degree to which someone possesses the Holy Spirit - whether they are Charismatic or traditional - is how well they keep their charity and peace when opposed.

 

[InLight247]

Indeed, actions speak louder than words!

 

[DebChris]

“Many find their baptismal faith revitalized by praising God together as charismatic Catholics, [only one] of the ways which baptized members of Christ’s Body live out the mystery of their baptismal vocation”–Handbook for Today’s Catholics.

 

[Joysong]

Many of you who belong to the CCR may be greatly encouraged by the meeting held this weekend with Pope Benedict XVI. He is a true Shepherd that will support your movement. You may find some encouraging words in this article today from Zenit.org.

I share a paragraph that ended the article and spoke to my heart:

“Those who are called to the service of discernment and leadership,” the Pope said, “should not lord it over the charisms, but should rather beware of the danger of suffocating them, resisting the temptation to make uniform that which the Spirit willed to be multiform to concur in the building up and the enlargement of the one Body of Christ, that the same Spirit makes firm in unity.”

 

[adowcday]

I haven’t been to charismatic prayer meetings for several years, but my experience of them in the late 1970s and early 1980s was very positive and led to my becoming a Roman Catholic. While there are wackos everywhere, the charismatic Catholics I interacted with included bishops, priests and nuns, including some of the finest I have known. Many vocations to the priesthood, religious life, and professional lay ministry had their origins in young people’s experience in charismatic renewal, which revitalized their faith. In our parish, charismatics were among the most involved members of the parish and deeply devoted to Catholic faith. They didn’t bark like dogs (I never experiences such foolishness in 5 years of involvement), but they did pray the rosary and liturgy of the hours, read the bible, frequent the sacraments, share their faith with nonbelievers and lapsed believers, and teach the faith to the young. It wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea to be sure, but it was a bona fide work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[una_fides]

I find just the opposite, as all of them I know, are totally sold out to and support the teaching authority and majestarium of the Church. Also, they are very often daily mass goers, they go to adoration, and have a deep relationship in Scripture with Jesus, and a great devotion to Blessed Mother and the saints, not to mention their daily prayer life. I mean, how can they be less faithful to their faith?

I did not say that the charismatics that you know are not devoted in their personal faith. What I said was that the origins of the charismatic movement were not faithful to the Church and originated in heretical groups that denied and opposed the Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation.

Perhaps if you had experiences among the many millions of charismatics who left the Catholic Church and instead joined “spirit filled protestant churches,” then you would have a different perspective.

 

[una_fides]

You may be interested in the brochure written by Jim Scully concerning the Charisimatic Renewal.
“The charismatic movement propounds no new dogmas. Instead, it stresses the experiencing** of the truths Catholics already accept.”

Where in Church history did authentic Catholics practice being “slain in the Spirit” and speaking in incomprehensible babblings, considered to be supernatural gifts? These new teachings certainly are not truths rooted in the Catholic Church’s tradition as they simply were not practiced throughout her history.

 

[InLight247]

Where in Church history did authentic Catholics practice being “slain in the Spirit” …

Being “slain in the Spirit” is not something to practice.
When the power of the Holy Spirit descends, people naturally fall.
That’s what is being authentic because the Holy Spirit is in control, not the person who falls.

No one can limit God. The Holy Spirit always leads us to newer and higher ground if we allow Him.

 

[una_fides]

Being “slain in the Spirit” is not something to practice.
When the power of the Holy Spirit descends, people naturally fall.
That’s what is being authentic because the Holy Spirit is in control, not the person who falls.

No one can limit God. The Holy Spirit always leads us to newer and higher ground if we allow Him.

So what you are saying is that the power of the Holy Spirit has not descended in 2000 years until recently it just began to. The problem is the the many saints who lived their lives by the Spirit did not randomly fall flat on their backs whenever the Spirit “descended on them.” In the many detailed diaries of the saints and histories, composed of millions of pages total, we do not find these occurrences. According to this theory, the saints then did not allow the Spirit to take them to “higher ground” since they did not experience him in such ways. By this theory then the Protestants, who started the charismatic movement decades before bringing it to the Catholic Church, then were truly open to God, while Catholics were closed to the Holy Spirit ever since the death of the apostles. Isn’t it also odd that those who claimed to be open to the Holy Spirit were not led to the only one holy Catholic and apostolic Church, to which the same Spirit leads all souls.

 

[consumedconvert]

So what you are saying is that the power of the Holy Spirit has not descended in 2000 years until recently it just began to. The problem is the the many saints who lived their lives by the Spirit did not randomly fall flat on their backs whenever the Spirit “descended on them.” In the many detailed diaries of the saints and histories, composed of millions of pages total, we do not find these occurrences. According to this theory, the saints then did not allow the Spirit to take them to “higher ground” since they did not experience him in such ways. By this theory then the Protestants, who started the charismatic movement decades before bringing it to the Catholic Church, then were truly open to God, while Catholics were closed to the Holy Spirit ever since the death of the apostles. Isn’t it also odd that those who claimed to be open to the Holy Spirit were not led to the only one holy Catholic and apostolic Church, to which the same Spirit leads all souls.

I might point out that there were a number of saint who levitated. So even though they didn’t lie flat on their backs…

 

[una_fides]

I have repeatedly read on this thread in attempts to counter the fact that this movement originated among protestants that the Holy Spirit can work however he chooses. I would ask if the Holy Spirit could therefore choose to add a fourth person to the blessed Trinity? Could the Holy Spirit decide that Christ will no longer return in glory to judge the living and the dead? Could the Spirit change his mind and say that the books of Scripture were no longer inspired or that his Church is no longer infallible when she claims this divine authority?

What the Spirit has already declared through divine revelation through means of the Church, the Spirit can never contradict or change. This fact does not limit the Holy Spirit, it rather defines his very nature, as he is the Spirit of Truth.

That being said, the Church has infallibly taught that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. Here are four infallible pronouncements authoritatively settling the issue:

The Athanasian Creed – One of the symbols of the Faith approved by the Church and given a place in her liturgy.
This Creed included in Ecumenical & Infallible Council of Florence: ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM
“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. … Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. … This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” newadvent.org/cathen/02033b.htm

IV Lateran Council 1215: “One indeed is the universal Church of the Faithful, outside of which no one at all is saved.” Pope Innocent III ex Cathedra. fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.html

Pope Boniface VIII. Unam Sanctam – 18 November 1302: (infallible papal declaration)
“Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2] … Now, therefore, we declare, say, determine and pronounce that for every human creature it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the authority of the Roman pontiff" papalencyclicals.net/Bon08/B8unam.htm

The Council of Florence (A.D. 1438-1445) From Cantate Domino — Papal Bull of Pope Eugene IV:
(Infallible General Council & Ex Cathedra papal declaration) ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM
The sacrosanct Roman Church…firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.

Thus, the Holy Spirit would and could never lead anyone away from the Catholic Church because to do so would be leading them away from salvation. Further, the Spirit of Truth leads anyone open to Him to the fullness of himself, who is the Truth. To accept the various superfluous “gifts” of the Spirit that originated in the protestant churches (i.e. babblings and slain in the spirit) is to thereby accept that these gifts were authentically performed in those separated churches, which led souls away from the Catholic Church by their very foundational teachings. The Holy Spirit cannot validate such a message because to do so would be contrary to his very nature, which leads all souls into the saving arms of the Church.

A few generalized non-infallible statements made by a couple modern popes seeming to praise various aspects of the catholic charismatic movement does not provide any proof of the movement’s legitimacy or orthodoxy. The next pope could very well call together an infallible Council or could exercise his infallibility to condemn the movement’s heretical origins. Such an action, furthermore, would in no way contradict Church teachings that popes are not infallible when speaking according to personal theological opinions. (The current pope has stated his opinion that rock music is inherently evil; yet, that does not mean that one cannot disagree with this opinion.)

The point is that so far the opinions offered in support of the cm on this thread have not yet provided a solid defense of these very new teachings and practices. A more critical look at the movement is needed by those faithful to Catholic Tradition in order to ensure theological purity.

 

[una_fides]

I might point out that there were a number of saint who levitated. So even though they didn’t lie flat on their backs…

true. but even levitation does not only belong to the arsenal of tools of the Holy Spirit, since those possessed by demons have also demonstrated the same occurrences. and again, levitation and large groups of people falling out are two different things.

one must also keep in mind that supernatural occurrences do not always demonstrate the veracity of a message. supernatural signs produced outside the Church are often used by satan to confuse the faithful and test their faith.

I heard there was a saint to whom satan appeared as if he were Christ but since he did not bear the very wounds of Christ, the saint was able to recognize the falsehood and ceased to listen to the false Christ. We also know from Scripture that satan comes and appears as an “angel of light” (2 Cor 12:14).

Deut 13: 1 If there rise in the midst of thee a prophet or one that saith he hath dreamed a dream, and he foretell a sign and a wonder, 2 And that come to pass which he spoke, and he say to thee: Let us go and follow strange gods, which thou knowest not, and let us serve them: 3 Thou shalt not hear the words of that prophet or dreamer: for the Lord your God trieth you, that it may appear whether you love him with all your heart, and with all your soul, or not.

This passage by application would also apply to any group whose foundational teachings lead souls away from the Catholic Church. While the founders of Protestantism (Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, etc) were greatly divided in their doctrines and interpretations of Scripture, one belief they all shared and promulgated was that they believed that the pope was the anti-Christ, and they taught explicitly that the Catholic Church led countless souls to hell. Either these groups who later “experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit” (at that time unheard of in the Catholic Church) were being led and validated by the Holy Spirit or they were sincerely mistaken. Either they were teaching the truth about the Catholic Church or they were teaching falsehood. One cannot have it both ways.

Let us all humbly beg for light from heaven as we ask the Spirit of Truth to guide us and lead us in our journeys as we better understand and grasp the fullness of his message to the Church.

 

[Joysong]

Una Fides,

You are doing your utmost to perpetrate your intense detestation of this movement. Every keystroke is laden with your hatred. What an odd way to find joy in life, putting down an approved movement of God.

A few generalized non-infallible statements made by a couple modern popes seeming to praise various aspects of the catholic charismatic movement does not provide any proof of the movement’s legitimacy or orthodoxy.

You traditionists believe Pope Benedict when he provides a MP for the TLM, but you won’t support him when his opinion is contrary to your belief. How very shallow your faith in the Magisterium is when you cannot listen to the words of God’s ‘Peter.’ Everyone with an ounce of sense knows well the extraordinary learning of this Pope. To imagine that he lightly or casually encouraged and praised the movement without doing a thorough investigation is for you to err with grave culpability. He speaks to the entire universal faithful and the Bishops who shepherd them, as well. Now do you honestly think he is off the mark and has little understanding behind his approbation? Oh please!!!

The point is that so far the opinions offered in support of the cm on this thread have not yet provided a solid defense of these very new teachings and practices.

There is no defense needed. Period. The movement is approved for Catholics. Period. Rather than harass God’s people, you may need to take up your argument with Pope Benedict. There are procedures for you to contact him. It might just prove enlightening if he chooses to answer you. Obviously you won’t listen to anyone here, nor should they be expected after five months of debate to further address your harangues.

 

[InLight247]

So what you are saying is that the power of the Holy Spirit has not descended in 2000 years until recently it just began to.

Is God a stand still God?
Do we not remember God has His own time?
Can any of us limit God?
Didn’t the Old Testament prophet tell us that God continues to do new things?

Isaish 43:19
Behold I am doing a new thing;
Now it springs forth,
do you not perceive it?

 

[DebChris]

So what you are saying is that the power of the Holy Spirit has not descended in 2000 years until recently it just began to. The problem is the the many saints who lived their lives by the Spirit did not randomly fall flat on their backs whenever the Spirit “descended on them.” In the many detailed diaries of the saints and histories, composed of millions of pages total, we do not find these occurrences. According to this theory, the saints then did not allow the Spirit to take them to “higher ground” since they did not experience him in such ways. By this theory then the Protestants, who started the charismatic movement decades before bringing it to the Catholic Church, then were truly open to God, while Catholics were closed to the Holy Spirit ever since the death of the apostles. Isn’t it also odd that those who claimed to be open to the Holy Spirit were not led to the only one holy Catholic and apostolic Church, to which the same Spirit leads all souls.

Read the Little Flowers of Saint Francis. Several of the early Franciscans “lay as if dead” for several days, even when consecrating the Eucharist.

“It also helps us to understand that the ecclesial movements and new communities are not a problem or an extra risk that further weighs on our grave duties.
No! they are a gift of the Lord, a precious resource to enrich our whole Christian community with their charisms. Thus, a confident welcome that gives space to and values their contributions in th elife of the local Churchs must not be lacking>”–Pope Benedict XVI , 5/17/2008.

 

[Pani_Rose]

In the 1800’s Pope Leo XIII urged the Church to become more open to the Holy Spirit. It happened but not that way he thought it would. In 1897, he issued and encyclical entitled *On the Holy Spirit, *which called the Church to a new appreciation of the Holy Spirit, and the people responded, millions of them theologians, clergy, laity, in ways that they had not for centuries. The pope was encouraged to sing ‘come Holy Spirit’ on the first day of the century, which was done on Jan. 1, 1901.

At that time, that very day Jan. 1, 1901, there was a vigil going on in Topeka Kansas. There the tongues of fire fell, and started the Asuza Street Revival.

The point I am making is it may have begun in a Four Square Church, but it began as the result of the actions of Pope Leo XIII and the Catholic Church.

You can read more here 209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:twHZqstaJbAJ:www.hsma.net/newsletter/10-2007%2520Holy%2520Spirit%2520Missionary%2520Assoc.pdf+pope+prayed+for+a+fresh+outpouring+of+the+holy+spirit+on+the+church+and+it+came+through+the+protestants&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us