Charismatic Traditionalist?

[Mordocai]

The Latin Mass Explained by Msgr. George J Moorman, just picked this book up, looks awesome.
What the Church truly needs is a total liturgical form, yes, but first and foremost a spiritual reform (which will come in a major way through a liturgical reform)
What bothers me is that often those who promote the Traditional Latin Mass seem very closed to the charisms of the Holy Spirit as seen in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal even though John Paul II wrote more encyclicals on the Holy Spirit than anybody I believe and had endorsed the renewal and the proper and responsible use of the charisms. For example the gifts of healing, prophecy and tongues are often not spoken of (from my experience at least) around the more “traditional” folk.
Or hearing the words “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” frightens them even though very famous, and well renowned loyal theologians have used the term (and explained it as a re-emersion, a stirring up of what was given in Baptism and increased and bestowed in Confirmation)
There is something, in my opinion, all Catholics need to experience, which is the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (which can occur in many ways, one of God’s favorite ways seems to be through the laying on of hands by those who have experienced it!)
Being fully empowered by the Holy Spirit, without whom all our work is impotent, (and that means receiving EVERYthing He wants to offer and being charitably and even joyously open to those charisms and gifts and freedom) we are thus able to influence our culture to SEE the beauty of our tradition. I feel the charismatic renewal is the gateway that our culture and world will be able to walk through in order to share in the rich mystical, mysterious and beautiful nature of all that is Catholic.
The Charismatic Renewal (not just some isolated movement, indeed it is a vital part of the New Springtime) needs to be opened to by all.
The books of Acts shows a Church much different than ours today in that miracles, healings and prophetic utterance were common occurance and widely accepted. And while we have progressed and developed in terms of the Liturgy, Spirituality, and Theology of the Church, we must remember that “Charismatic Renewal” first means being open “ephatha” to the voice of the Father through the Son, the breath of which is the Holy Spirit. It means being ready, willing and able to accept those gifts and charisms and the ratify in our own minds what the Church has already ratified and heartily embraced! In fact every diocese has a charismatic renewal liason for the Bishop. No other movement or anything has this type of thing. The Bishops themselves decided this years back since the Renewal was so important. And if one were to write this off and say “Well the American Bishops have done this or failed in that” that individual must also be careful about whom he speaks about; a successor to the Apostles, who have been given special charisms of discernment to make true appraisals.
The Charismatic Renewal and the Liturgical Reform (which, I believe, will eventually coincide into one movement of believers as they are both not opposed in any way but rather enrich eachother tremedously) need to be in proper dialogue if they are not already.
The Trads and the Charismatics need to understand eachother and not isolate themselves from what eachother has to offer. Full openness to the Holy Spirit (the goal of both) means just that. Full openness!
And on that note I say "ephatha!’ Be opened to the Lord’s call on your life and do not be afraid to step out into the deep where the Church has said Christ dwells. Reach out to Him who sees our Church sinking and be empowed by His loving grasp to rewaken yourself and others. Say to the Lord Jesus “Lord, if it is You, bid me to come to You.” Test the spirits through the discernment of the Church (which has ratified the liturgical reform and charismatic renewal) and walk in faith towards that pearl of great price called freedom.
God Bless you, Mary Keep you,

In the Heart of the Lamb
Matthew

P.S. I recommended the Latin Mass Explained up above but I can also heartily recommend the book Sober Intoxication of the Spirit by Father Raniero Cantelemessa (who was the Papal preacher from John Paul II and continues to be for Benedict XVI - if you’ve never read anything by him, read this! Papal approval ) for those interested in what the Father is doing through the Holy Spirit in the Body of Christ
Peace to all!

 

[palmas85]

The Latin Mass Explained by Msgr. George J Moorman, just picked this book up, looks awesome.
What the Church truly needs is a total liturgical form, yes, but first and foremost a spiritual reform (which will come in a major way through a liturgical reform)
What bothers me is that often those who promote the Traditional Latin Mass seem very closed to the charisms of the Holy Spirit as seen in the Catholic Charismatic Renewal even though John Paul II wrote more encyclicals on the Holy Spirit than anybody I believe and had endorsed the renewal and the proper and responsible use of the charisms. For example the gifts of healing, prophecy and tongues are often not spoken of (from my experience at least) around the more “traditional” folk.
Or hearing the words “Baptism in the Holy Spirit” frightens them even though very famous, and well renowned loyal theologians have used the term (and explained it as a re-emersion, a stirring up of what was given in Baptism and increased and bestowed in Confirmation)
There is something, in my opinion, all Catholics need to experience, which is the Baptism in the Holy Spirit (which can occur in many ways, one of God’s favorite ways seems to be through the laying on of hands by those who have experienced it!)
Being fully empowered by the Holy Spirit, without whom all our work is impotent, (and that means receiving EVERYthing He wants to offer and being charitably and even joyously open to those charisms and gifts and freedom) we are thus able to influence our culture to SEE the beauty of our tradition. I feel the charismatic renewal is the gateway that our culture and world will be able to walk through in order to share in the rich mystical, mysterious and beautiful nature of all that is Catholic.
The Charismatic Renewal (not just some isolated movement, indeed it is a vital part of the New Springtime) needs to be opened to by all.
The books of Acts shows a Church much different than ours today in that miracles, healings and prophetic utterance were common occurance and widely accepted. And while we have progressed and developed in terms of the Liturgy, Spirituality, and Theology of the Church, we must remember that “Charismatic Renewal” first means being open “ephatha” to the voice of the Father through the Son, the breath of which is the Holy Spirit. It means being ready, willing and able to accept those gifts and charisms and the ratify in our own minds what the Church has already ratified and heartily embraced! In fact every diocese has a charismatic renewal liason for the Bishop. No other movement or anything has this type of thing. The Bishops themselves decided this years back since the Renewal was so important. And if one were to write this off and say “Well the American Bishops have done this or failed in that” that individual must also be careful about whom he speaks about; a successor to the Apostles, who have been given special charisms of discernment to make true appraisals.
The Charismatic Renewal and the Liturgical Reform (which, I believe, will eventually coincide into one movement of believers as they are both not opposed in any way but rather enrich eachother tremedously) need to be in proper dialogue if they are not already.
The Trads and the Charismatics need to understand eachother and not isolate themselves from what eachother has to offer. Full openness to the Holy Spirit (the goal of both) means just that. Full openness!
And on that note I say "ephatha!’ Be opened to the Lord’s call on your life and do not be afraid to step out into the deep where the Church has said Christ dwells. Reach out to Him who sees our Church sinking and be empowed by His loving grasp to rewaken yourself and others. Say to the Lord Jesus “Lord, if it is You, bid me to come to You.” Test the spirits through the discernment of the Church (which has ratified the liturgical reform and charismatic renewal) and walk in faith towards that pearl of great price called freedom.
God Bless you, Mary Keep you,

In the Heart of the Lamb
Matthew

P.S. I recommended the Latin Mass Explained up above but I can also heartily recommend the book Sober Intoxication of the Spirit by Father Raniero Cantelemessa (who was the Papal preacher from John Paul II and continues to be for Benedict XVI - if you’ve never read anything by him, read this! Papal approval ) for those interested in what the Father is doing through the Holy Spirit in the Body of Christ
Peace to all!

 

[Rawb]

Good luck. I for one find nothing in the so-called charismatic spirituality. Indeed it is the exact opposite of the ‘focus on Christ’ and ‘quiet, meditiative prayer’ spirituality that I find so prevalent in Pre-Vatican II devotions and which helps increase and strengthen my faith.

To be blunt, most traditionalists I’ve spoken with find the charismatic movement a dying group of protestant origins.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Let’s not forget that prayer, forebearance, fervor, and faith are tradtional–and charismatic as well.

And how do you get any closer to the Holy Spirit than through the Body and Blood of Christ?

 

[CB_Catholic]

How rude! How very lacking in Christian Charity to dismiss a person’s ideas in such a manner, even if you don’t agree with them! A human being, one of God’s children, wrote that post, and deserves to be treated better than that.

 

[Mordocai]

Thanks for the replies guys!

I agree about the quiet, contemplative life and devotion to the Eucharist. It’s not like a charismatic Catholic (which all Catholics are charismatic, whether they like the term or not, since charisms are given to the whole Church) doesn’t have those in their devotional life! Some of the most fervent adorers and deepest contemplatives ive ever met have been “charismatics”

The main thrust of my post was to emphasize the need for total openness to the Holy Spirit and fearlessness into whatever He leads a person into.

Does that mean he/she has to go to every prayer group and charismatic conference he can find? no. but it does mean obedience to the Spirit and submission to the Church’s decisions about the various gifts that Christ bestows on the Church, particularly the gift of the Charismatic renewal. The reason it is called the “Charismatic” Renewal is to emphasize the need for a deeper awareness and acceptance of the charisms of the Holy Spirit and thus Renew such activity in the Church.

The Church in Acts is full of the full operation of the Spirit in these early Christians. We, as a Church today, have 2,000 years of tradition to bolster us, yes, but we’ve also had 2,000 years to complete our mission and we have not been fully successful.

There is a reason that the book of Acts can say things like “And 3,000 were added that day”
In short periods of time they would have thousands baptized.
Why can we not have that many people enter into the Church daily through our witness, through the new evangelization (like a blessed approach to utilizing the media) but also through the power of God’s Spirit (sometimes the forgotten person of the Trinity and written off as that Person who’s just the ‘automatic’ part of the Trinity, as if we dont have to actually interact with Him.)

And this Power and Love that comes from the Spirit will work miracles and healings through us. Our culture is in terrible need of a powerful exorcism of the spirit of the world and the spirit of satan. we ourselves need our own demons released, those of hesitation, those of the flesh, those of “comfort” in terms of where we’re at.

do i like being “labeled” as a Charismatic and written off immediately? no i dont, but if thats what it takes to wake up one soul, God’s Will be done.

I’m Catholic, and because I’m Catholic, I’m Charismatic. It’s in the definition of what Christ calls us to be! He calls us to be HIM, the Christ, the Annointed One.

This doesn’t mean we abandon the quiet contemplative life (in fact i sometimes wonder if i am called to be a hermit. i just got back from a conference a few weeks ago, met a hermit who lives in the woods in a cabin and the community putting on the conference were themselves all hermits)
we dont abandon what we HAVE if it is indeed from Christ.
we need to abandon what we hold onto that is not from him, our own prejudices, doubts, fears etc.
we’re being called by the Church to pray for a New Pentecost and to operate within that Pentecost. Pope Benedicts himself has said that the spirituality of Pentecost needs to be utilized by the whole Church. So take a look at the book of Acts and ask yourself if you’re living out the spirituality of Pentecost.

Pax vobis
Mordocai

p.s. im issuing a challenge to you my brothers and sisters to move towards personal growth, this isnt an attack or something you should get mad at me about. so please do not read my above comments and feel you have to respond and say “im doing just fine, i dont need to see healings and miracles.”
but if people aren’t being converted and inspired in this culture, maybe THEY need to see healings and miracles. we dont live for ourselves, we’re their servants. if we dont believe God “does that” anymore, then there’s something seriously wrong with us. Saints and Fatima are not the only places miracles are located!
Again, read the book of Acts and see if that’s what you’re experiencing. “These men are not drunk as you suppose” St. Peter said to those listening after Pentecost. Has anyone ever accused you of drunkenness due to your having been swept off your feet by the Holy Spirit? Me neither.

 

[Listener]

Mordocai - Thank you so much for your very articulate explanation of the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church. I believe it is right on! I, too, have noticed that people who call themselves “traditionalists” seem to be very freaked out and narrow minded about all of this.

I makes me think of the parable in the Bible where no one would come to the wedding, so the blind and the lame had to be invited instead. Maybe that is why it seems that some of the people you find at Charismatic events seem like they are “on the fringe” of society.

I don’t call myself a “traditionalist,” even though I grew up in the 1950’s and spent part of my life attending the Latin Mass. It might be fun to go to one sometime, but I am perfectly happy with the Mass being said in English.

It seems a little strange that people put so much importance on a language that these days most people can’t understand.

 

[Rawb]

I, too, have noticed that people who call themselves “traditionalists” seem to be very freaked out and narrow minded about all of this.

I makes me think of the parable in the Bible where no one would come to the wedding, so the blind and the lame had to be invited instead

This here is one of the major things that drives me away from the ‘charismatic movement’ (ironically it is also something that drives many people away from traditionalism)

Many Charismatics have a very narrow view and feel that if you haven’t been ‘slain in the spirit’ or have never ‘spoken in tongues’ then you must not really be Christian (or they portray that attitude). They often verge on being rude about it, never mind the fact that these things were never done in the Church before the Protestants started doing them sometime in the last century (and I don’t believe the book of Acts speaks of the babbling that passes nowdays as ‘tongues’. Those were actual languages granted by the Holy Spirit to convert others).

So suddenly, unless you partake of these new fangled spiritualities, you’re not “Open to all the Spirit has to offer” and you are “Narrow minded”? Well the road to Heaven is narrow, so I think I’ll stick with the tried and true practices that have sustained Holy Mother Church for thousands of years rather than dabble in practices first ‘discovered’ in heretical circles.

 

[palmas85]

How rude! How very lacking in Christian Charity to dismiss a person’s ideas in such a manner, even if you don’t agree with them! A human being, one of God’s children, wrote that post, and deserves to be treated better than that.

How was I rude? I didn’t say a word. I found the post to be neither compelling or even particularly accurate and in fact kind of humorous and naive.

The fact that I don’t agree with what someone posts doesn’t make me lacking in Christian charity. I suggest you read 2 Peter Chapter 2. If you never have you really might learn something there about new movements and teachers within the Church…

 

[cyberwolf001]

The 7 Gifts of the Holy Ghost:
Wisdom
Understanding
Counsel
Fortitude
Knowledge
Piety
Fear of the Lord

The 12 Fruits of the Holy Ghost
Charity
Joy
Peace
Patience
Benignity
Goodness
Longanimity
Mildness
Faith
Modesty
Continency
Chastity

---

So which of these are Traditionalists not open to?



LET THE FIRE FALL!

Come, Holy Spirit, Creator blest,
and in our souls take up Thy rest;
come with Thy grace and heavenly aid
to fill the hearts which Thou hast made.

O comforter, to Thee we cry,
O heavenly gift of God Most High,
O fount of life and fire of love,
and sweet anointing from above.

Thou in Thy sevenfold gifts are known;
Thou, finger of God’s hand we own;
Thou, promise of the Father,
Thou Who dost the tongue with power imbue.

Kindle our sense from above,
and make our hearts o’erflow with love;
with patience firm and virtue high
the weakness of our flesh supply.

Far from us drive the foe we dread,
and grant us Thy peace instead;
so shall we not, with Thee for guide,
turn from the path of life aside.

Oh, may Thy grace on us bestow
the Father and the Son to know;
and Thee, through endless times confessed, of both the eternal Spirit blest.

Now to the Father and the Son,
Who rose from death, be glory given,
with Thou, O Holy Comforter,
henceforth by all in earth and heaven. Amen.

 

[CB_Catholic]

How was I rude? I didn’t say a word. I found the post to be neither compelling or even particularly accurate and in fact kind of humorous and naive.

The fact that I don’t agree with what someone posts doesn’t make me lacking in Christian charity. I suggest you read 2 Peter Chapter 2. If you never have you really might learn something there about new movements and teachers within the Church…

Instead of giving a reasoned explanation of your disagreement, your use of the emoticons showed that you were laughing at the poster’s ideas. You don’t have to say a word to exhibit rude behavior, either on the boards or in real life. And the lack of Christian Charity does not apply to your disagreement of the ideas, it applies to the way you expressed your disagreement on a public board. I certainly hope that in real life, whenever someone says not “particularly accurate and in fact kind of humorous and naive” to you, you don’t “roll on the floor laughing” at them in response. Enough said.

 

[Walking_Home]

This here is one of the major things that drives me away from the ‘charismatic movement’ (ironically it is also something that drives many people away from traditionalism)

Many Charismatics have a very narrow view and feel that if you haven’t been ‘slain in the spirit’ or have never ‘spoken in tongues’ then you must not really be Christian (or they portray that attitude). They often verge on being rude about it, never mind the fact that these things were never done in the Church before the Protestants started doing them sometime in the last century (and I don’t believe the book of Acts speaks of the babbling that passes nowdays as ‘tongues’. Those were actual languages granted by the Holy Spirit to convert others).

So suddenly, unless you partake of these new fangled spiritualities, you’re not “Open to all the Spirit has to offer” and you are “Narrow minded”? Well the road to Heaven is narrow, so I think I’ll stick with the tried and true practices that have sustained Holy Mother Church for thousands of years rather than dabble in practices first ‘discovered’ in heretical circles.

---

 

[palmas85]

Instead of giving a reasoned explanation of your disagreement, your use of the emoticons showed that you were laughing at the poster’s ideas. You don’t have to say a word to exhibit rude behavior, either on the boards or in real life. And the lack of Christian Charity does not apply to your disagreement of the ideas, it applies to the way you expressed your disagreement on a public board. I certainly hope that in real life, whenever someone says not “particularly accurate and in fact kind of humorous and naive” to you, you don’t “roll on the floor laughing” at them in response. Enough said.

2 Peter Chapter 2

Then get back to me.

And yes, if someone in real life says something to me that is quite humorous, I do laugh.

 

[Walking_Home]

Mordocai - Thank you so much for your very articulate explanation of the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church. I believe it is right on! I, too, have noticed that people who call themselves “traditionalists” seem to be very freaked out and** narrow minded about all of this.**

I makes me think of the parable in the Bible where no one would come to the wedding, so the blind and the lame had to be invited instead. Maybe that is why it seems that some of the people you find at Charismatic events seem like they are “on the fringe” of society.

I don’t call myself a “traditionalist,” even though I grew up in the 1950’s and spent part of my life attending the Latin Mass. It might be fun to go to one sometime, but I am perfectly happy with the Mass being said in English.

It seems a little strange that people put so much importance on a language that these days most people can’t understand.

---

Know what happens when one gets “opened minded” —creates the danger of brains falling out.

 

[ethelzguy]

Know what happens when one gets “opened minded” —creates the danger of brains falling out.

The motto of the narrow minded.

 

[Walking_Home]

Look where “open mindedness” has led the Anglican denominations. “Open the mind” – and well --anything can happen from there.

 

[palmas85]

The motto of the narrow minded.

Open minded and accepting of new ideas.

Read 2 Peter Chapter 2. This chapter is often overlooked and almost never preached Or read Corinthians for that matter. Paul wasn’t particularly happy with their open minded acceptance of new ideas. Open minded inclusiveness doesn’t always produce good results and in fact can and will cause disunity, confusion and departure from the true teachings of the Church.

We were warned about this in scripture yet few seem to be listening.

Heretics don’t come in and loudly proclaim to be heretics. They creep in alongside and pretend to be orthodox until their infection spreads and you have entire groups who believe they are orthodox when in fact they have departed from the faith.

 

[ethelzguy]

Look where “open mindedness” has led the Anglican denominations. “Open the mind” – and well --anything can happen from there.

Without open minds, Christianity wouldn’t exist.

 

[Walking_Home]

Without open minds, Christianity wouldn’t exist.

---

The Church existed before the “new”-- “current”-- “open-mindedness”. This new wave —well see my prior post.

Is all that eye rolling indicative of some eye condition.

 

[Rawb]

Without open minds, Christianity wouldn’t exist

Not quite. Without testing to see whether something is TRUE, Christianity wouldn’t exist.

If we have examined charismaticism and found it to be lacking, well then, why bother? Indiscriminate acceptance of any all religious, spiritual, and pseudo-spiritual movements leads, not to authentic Catholicism (which of course is what we should strive for), but to religious indifference, where it doesn’t really matter which religion you belong to, as long as you’re some vague equivilent of ‘spiritual’.