Charismatics bringing corpses to church

[losh14]

My wife’s aunt hosts Easter dinner. She and her husband now go to a charismatic church some distance from where they live, and have invited the family to an Easter passion play starring the aunt’s husband in the role of Jesus. I looked at the church and, yeah there’s a few things that stand out as being odd.

One of them is the request to bring dead corpses to a “signs and miracles” service:
agapechurch.addr.com/events.html

I don’t think they actually bring coffins or recently deceased persons to the service, but are just citing that Scripture notes that the dead are brought back to life by those who manifest divine blessings.

There’s also a photo of the church’s pastor receiving the power of anointing by visiting the grave of another pastor. Somewhere between creepy and Crowley (pun intended).

Is this a common theme in charismatic or revivalist churches, the call to raise the dead as a sign or wonder, as something prefiguring the Resurrection?

 

[SteveVH]

My wife’s aunt hosts Easter dinner. She and her husband now go to a charismatic church some distance from where they live, and have invited the family to an Easter passion play starring the aunt’s husband in the role of Jesus. I looked at the church and, yeah there’s a few things that stand out as being odd.

One of them is the request to bring dead corpses to a “signs and miracles” service:
agapechurch.addr.com/events.html

I don’t think they actually bring coffins or recently deceased persons to the service, but are just citing that Scripture notes that the dead are brought back to life by those who manifest divine blessings.

There’s also a photo of the church’s pastor receiving the power of anointing by visiting the grave of another pastor. Somewhere between creepy and Crowley (pun intended).

Is this a common theme in charismatic or revivalist churches, the call to raise the dead as a sign or wonder, as something prefiguring the Resurrection?

Maybe the test would be how many times they have accomplished bringing someone back from the dead.

Just one question though. It seems that you are implying, in the thread title, that these people do indeed bring corpses to church. You then state that “I don’t think they actually bring coffins or recently deceased persons to the service.” So which is it? Believing that a person can be raised from the dead is certainly Christian.

I do agree that the pastor receiving his anointing from the grave of the prior pastor is not only creepy, but almost comical, except that he probably really believes it.

 

[SaintPatrick333]

I know the Church suffers the existence of these charismatic groups, but I pray our next Pontiff is even more strongly traditionalist than His Holiness Benedict XVI. These charismatic groups are no good for the Church. They believe, in the same way pentecostals do, that they have charisms (primarily speaking in tongues) when all they do is speak gibberish. That might be all well and fine for them if it makes them feel closer to God than great I think. Just save it for the confines of ones home. We don’t need people’s “gifts” insulting God in His very house. The Church thrived for centuries upon centuries without this “charismatic” style. It’s an invention of the times. One that the Church would do well to condemn and brush aside.

 

[Bonnie]

Took a look at the website & it appears to be a traveling revival show. “Dead corpse” is redundant. Odd that they only want one!

 

[PatriceA]

I know the Church suffers the existence of these charismatic groups, but I pray our next Pontiff is even more strongly traditionalist than His Holiness Benedict XVI. These charismatic groups are no good for the Church. They believe, in the same way pentecostals do, that they have charisms (primarily speaking in tongues) when all they do is speak gibberish. That might be all well and fine for them if it makes them feel closer to God than great I think. Just save it for the confines of ones home. We don’t need people’s “gifts” insulting God in His very house. The Church thrived for centuries upon centuries without this “charismatic” style. It’s an invention of the times. One that the Church would do well to condemn and brush aside.

I think you misunderstood the OP. They’re not talking about Catholics that are charismatic. They’re talking about a nondenominational church that calls itself charismatic.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I know the Church suffers the existence of these charismatic groups, but I pray our next Pontiff is even more strongly traditionalist than His Holiness Benedict XVI. These charismatic groups are no good for the Church. They believe, in the same way pentecostals do, that they have charisms (primarily speaking in tongues) when all they do is speak gibberish. That might be all well and fine for them if it makes them feel closer to God than great I think. Just save it for the confines of ones home. We don’t need people’s “gifts” insulting God in His very house. The Church thrived for centuries upon centuries without this “charismatic” style. It’s an invention of the times. One that the Church would do well to condemn and brush aside.

For goodness sake, these are not Catholic churches the OP is writing about, and Catholic Charismatics do NOT practice such nonsense as trying to bring corpses to church or raise the dead, or the other nonsense he posted. Be careful when you make such statements, you can bring scandal when none is deserved. Before you deride something, know who and what you are talking about.

 

[grannymh]

I know the Church suffers the existence of these charismatic groups, but I pray our next Pontiff is even more strongly traditionalist than His Holiness Benedict XVI. These charismatic groups are no good for the Church. They believe, in the same way pentecostals do, that they have charisms (primarily speaking in tongues) when all they do is speak gibberish. That might be all well and fine for them if it makes them feel closer to God than great I think. Just save it for the confines of ones home. We don’t need people’s “gifts” insulting God in His very house. The Church thrived for centuries upon centuries without this “charismatic” style. It’s an invention of the times. One that the Church would do well to condemn and brush aside.

The link does not refer to the Catholic Charismatic Renewal within the Catholic Church.

 

[benjohnson]

I know the Church suffers the existence of these charismatic groups, but I pray our next Pontiff is even more strongly traditionalist than His Holiness Benedict XVI.

As a Lutheran, I think I understand your objections to the charismatic groups - we’ve universally rejected the concept, as to us it seems like playing at being God and it seems so locked in a particular American culture.

However, I did see the trailing end of a Catholic Charismatic service and frankly, I was only marginally freaked out, not completely freaked out. I’d urge caution in your apparent condemnation only because JPII and B XVI were both such good leaders; That if they both can see some good in this, then perhaps there is some good.

 

[JHow]

My most charitable interpretation of this is that perhaps the web site text was composed by a person with a limited or non native grasp if English (and not proof read by anyone)? Maybe the intent is to bring the dying, rather than the dead?

 

[Lochias]

I wonder if that pastor realizes that he’s practicing what could be considered a form of necromancy?

 

[SteveVH]

I know the Church suffers the existence of these charismatic groups, but I pray our next Pontiff is even more strongly traditionalist than His Holiness Benedict XVI. These charismatic groups are no good for the Church. They believe, in the same way pentecostals do, that they have charisms (primarily speaking in tongues) when all they do is speak gibberish. That might be all well and fine for them if it makes them feel closer to God than great I think. Just save it for the confines of ones home. We don’t need people’s “gifts” insulting God in His very house. The Church thrived for centuries upon centuries without this “charismatic” style. It’s an invention of the times. One that the Church would do well to condemn and brush aside.

The Church does more than just “suffer” the existence of the Charismatic Renewal. It was supported by our last two Popes. You speak of something of which you have no understanding and I would advise you to inform yourself before making such statements.

 

[HoosMommie]

Against my better judgment I went to that website. I do believe they do want corpses. GAH! Those people frighten me. And for what it’s worth, I understood the OP did not refer to charismatic Catholics.

 

[ltwin]

My wife’s aunt hosts Easter dinner. She and her husband now go to a charismatic church some distance from where they live, and have invited the family to an Easter passion play starring the aunt’s husband in the role of Jesus. I looked at the church and, yeah there’s a few things that stand out as being odd.

One of them is the request to bring dead corpses to a “signs and miracles” service:
agapechurch.addr.com/events.html

I don’t think they actually bring coffins or recently deceased persons to the service, but are just citing that Scripture notes that the dead are brought back to life by those who manifest divine blessings.

There’s also a photo of the church’s pastor receiving the power of anointing by visiting the grave of another pastor. Somewhere between creepy and Crowley (pun intended).

Is this a common theme in charismatic or revivalist churches, the call to raise the dead as a sign or wonder, as something prefiguring the Resurrection?

There are sometimes that claims are made that the dead are raised; however, they are pretty rare in my experience. Usually you hear such things during times of heightened awareness of God’s presence, like a revival.

I remember Todd Bentley during the Lakeland Revival several years ago claimed that people had said dead family members were raised, but I never saw any evidence that this had actually happened. In fact, Todd Bentley’s ministry later imploded in an explosion of scandal, so I wouldn’t trust anything he claimed during that revival.

There are also many stories about the dead being raised in non-Western countries. Sometimes this is through the ministry of Western missionaries and other times this is due to intensive prayer of local ministers.

This seems to be someone who claims a special anointing for healing. I don’t know anything about him so I can’t say anything without knowing more.

My church has a healing minister who God has used in the past frequently to bring healing, but he never has claimed to raise the dead. It’s more about just having faith to believe God for anything no matter how the situation looks and being willing to pray for anyone as the need arises.

Now about a transference of anointing from visiting a grave, that is a little weird. Though if you think about it its not much weirder than visiting the grave of a saint and praying to them.

 

[RedSparklyShoes]

That certainly looks a bit odd. I grew up around a lot of charismatic people and while sometimes weird things happen (like falling down or laughter or what have you), but I never spent time around people who would have a “signs and wonders service” where “miracles will happen”. While I do believe that miracles happen, we can never proclaim when or what they will be. Anyone who does is a fool.

 

[losh14]

Thanks all for the points.
I should have noted that the church in question is an independent, non-Catholic, charismatic church. To my knowledge they don’t claim affiliation with any larger church governance entity. My wife’s aunt married a non-Catholic, left the Church some time ago and this is their most recent church. In the 10 years since I’ve known them, my wife’s aunt has taken her family to at least three different non-Catholic churches, and had her kids baptized in the previous one (one’s 20, the other 23), so no this isn’t a practicing Catholic family we’re visiting. We love them all the same.

I asked this because, while I’ve known some charismatics (Catholic or otherwise) this is entirely new to me. I don’t doubt the healing power of God, though I doubt some healers, and I have far more faith in the Anointing of the Sick by an ordained priest than I do in the laying of hands by someone who claims ordination based on secret vision.

If you are more familiar with the charismatic movement outside of the Catholic Church I’d especially like to hear what you have to say about this - is this request to bring corpses unusual, fringe, scary or common?

Just one question though. It seems that you are implying, in the thread title, that these people do indeed bring corpses to church. You then state that “I don’t think they actually bring coffins or recently deceased persons to the service.” So which is it? Believing that a person can be raised from the dead is certainly Christian.

I don’t know which it is - this church is all the way across the county for us, a good hour’s drive and I’d rather go to the Basilica if I’m driving that far. I think it’s against the law to transport a corpse except through funerary services. I also think that, had a resurrection been successful, we’d hear more about it. To wit, a local story was done on Blessed Joseph Chaminade because a local woman (actually the daughter of my wife’s family’s dentist) said she was cured of cancer by the intercession of Fr. Chaminade. This story made the news during cancer awareness month as well as a few times earlier. There’s medical documentation (the doctors had to submit forms to the insurance company that state, yes she did have cancer, and no she doesn’t anymore, please don’t make her pay back the costs of treatment) as well other documentation.

To this independent church - I read elsewhere that the pastor, Mel Bond, claims to have brought four or five people back from the dead for as long as 10 minutes (they died again). And this is the first I’m hearing of it. I’m inclined to think there’s less evidence here than for the girl cured of cancer.

I do agree that the pastor receiving his anointing from the grave of the prior pastor is not only creepy, but almost comical, except that he probably really believes it.

I wonder if that pastor realizes that he’s practicing what could be considered a form of necromancy?

I actually thought “necromancy” but didn’t want to go there. We must be careful when visiting this church if this is really what he preaches. Still, it’s just a Passion play… right? They may or may not ask for altar calls, or may or may not lay hands spontaneously. Are there appropriate prayers specific to spiritual warfare if need be?

Would I be out of line bringing a rite of exorcism with me just in case? Boy that’d be something, charismatic pastor tries to lay hands on a Catholic visitor and gets sicced with:

“God, by your Name, save me, and by your might defend my cause, for haughty men have risen up against me and fierce men seek my life”

or

“hasten to our call for help and snatch from ruination and from the clutches of the noonday devil this human being made in your image and likeness. Strike terror, Lord, into the beast now laying waste to your vineyard.”

Too much? Maybe.

As a Lutheran, I think I understand your objections to the charismatic groups - we’ve universally rejected the concept, as to us it seems like playing at being God and it seems so locked in a particular American culture.

Thanks for a unique perspective. I think we have to be cautious, recognizing and celebrating God’s gifts where and how they are given, but not reaching. Perhaps we can take a lesson from Phil 2:6, if our Lord did not regard equality with God something to be grasped at, then should we regard gifts not given as to be grasped for? Lately my prayers have evolved to ask for contentment with what I have - I pray a devotion to the Holy Trinity in the form of an Our Father, an Anima Christi and a Come, Holy Spirit, and I’ve interjected the Anima Christi with petitions for protection:

“Against lust, chasten me and grant me patience
Against sloth, hasten me and grant me urgency
Against arrogance, be the rod at my back and grant me humility
Against anger, calm me and grant me trust in You
Against greed, remind me that my treasure is in Heaven and grant me contentment
Against blasphemy, silence my tongue and grant me wisdom
Against heresy, draw the scales from my eyes and grant me understanding”

 

[losh14]

There are sometimes that claims are made that the dead are raised; however, they are pretty rare in my experience. Usually you hear such things during times of heightened awareness of God’s presence, like a revival.

Thank you for offering your particular insight here.

There are also many stories about the dead being raised in non-Western countries. Sometimes this is through the ministry of Western missionaries and other times this is due to intensive prayer of local ministers.

Why in non-Western countries, do you think? Do you believe these stories, or have reason to believe them? I’ve heard some, even within the Catholic Church, say that the Spirit has moved on from the United States due to our rejection of God in public life. That isn’t to say no American will be saved, but rather that the Spirit is focusing elsewhere that we may learn by enduring the painful attachments to sin we have engineered for ourselves through abortion, pornography, excessive drink and a violent culture.

This seems to be someone who claims a special anointing for healing. I don’t know anything about him so I can’t say anything without knowing more.

I can agree with you there. Perhaps we’ll learn more about him.

It’s more about just having faith to believe God for anything no matter how the situation looks and being willing to pray for anyone as the need arises.

I cannot argue with the need for faith, the essential character of trust in God, and the need to submit ourselves to Him and offer prayer. Has your healing minister conclusively healed someone, ie not just mind over matter (ie, my friend the psychologist who would use hypnosis to calm patients and ease their pain in the ER) but restored a withered limb or removed a disease thought to be incurable.

Now about a transference of anointing from visiting a grave, that is a little weird. Though if you think about it its not much weirder than visiting the grave of a saint and praying to them.

When you put it in that light, I suppose it’s similar to Ac 19:12. Though I’d think a blessing from the saint’s portion of the Treasury of Grace is a different matter from ordination into a healing ministry, the latter of which would ordinarily require the laying on of hands whether in Catholic or non-Catholic practice.

 

[Bonnie]

Thanks all for the points.
If you are more familiar with the charismatic movement outside of the Catholic Church I’d especially like to hear what you have to say about this - is this request to bring corpses unusual, fringe, scary or common?

This is very uncommon - as in I’ve never seen it before. Before I was Catholic I was Pentecostal. There were a lot of claimed healings, especially lengthening a leg. (Later I found out how that illusion is done.) Generally, “healings” are things that can’t be verified. And no modern minister, priest, or holy man of any religion has raised the dead.

We must be careful when visiting this church if this is really what he preaches. Still, it’s just a Passion play… right? They may or may not ask for altar calls, or may or may not lay hands spontaneously. Are there appropriate prayers specific to spiritual warfare if need be?

Would I be out of line bringing a rite of exorcism with me just in case?

I don’t think you need to worry. Be prepared to be entertained by an amateur theatrical performance. If they are big on altar calls, there might be one, but no one will “lay hands” on you unless you request. At least that’s how it was done at my church & others I visited.

You’re a baptized Christian - you can’t be possessed, so no need for the rite of exorcism. If you’re nervous, take along a some holy water or blessed salt.

 

[HoosMommie]

I would not go. Period.

 

[losh14]

I would not go. Period.

I’m leery but ever since I talked my wife into going to see Killoween '06 I’ve been indebted Just kidding. It’d be a huge rift if we didn’t go, since my wife’s mother and father, and grandparents, are all going.

We’ll definitely have some wine at dinner, even if we’re the ones bringing it.

 

[Dorothy]

The most beautiful thing is to see people dead in sin brought to a life of grace in Our Lord Jesus Christ!
The next most beautiful thing is to see those persons stay with the Lord and allow Him to sanctify them, and then live with Him for all eternity in love with Him!

May He be glorified forever!