Charles Martel and the Fall of Europe

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Kaninchen said:
Or quite the opposite, of course.
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aren’t you simply proving my point by making dismissive comments about a book you’ll never read?

just for the record, i read books written by secularists who have no use for religion. today i bought a book by charles freeman called “the closing of the western mind: the rise of faith and the fall of reason.”
 
tomarin said:
aren’t you simply proving my point by making dismissive comments about a book you’ll never read?
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Your ‘sketch’ of the plot of the book told me all I’d ever need to know - it was ‘business as usual’ (as one would expect, of course, and it’s not a condemnation to say that, just an observation).

Any non-Catholic on these boards gets to know the ‘code’ words and phrases and one doesn’t have to go through repetitions of the ‘argument’ every time in order to get the picture.

So arguments that, to you, are profound when applied to whatever set of circumstances, to me are trite when applied to whatever set of circumstances.
 
tomarin said:
just for the record, i read books written by secularists who have no use for religion. today i bought a book by charles freeman called “the closing of the western mind: the rise of faith and the fall of reason.”
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So?
 
Kaninchen said:
Your ‘sketch’ of the plot of the book told me all I’d ever need to know - it was ‘business as usual’ (as one would expect, of course, and it’s not a condemnation to say that, just an observation).

Any non-Catholic on these boards gets to know the ‘code’ words and phrases and one doesn’t have to go through repetitions of the ‘argument’ every time in order to get the picture.

So arguments that, to you, are profound when applied to whatever set of circumstances, to me are trite when applied to whatever set of circumstances.
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if you’re saying you’ve heard it all before here on these boards, then i’ll have to accept that, although i think you would find the pope’s style of argument a bit more sophisticated than you might anticipate. he too is “european, very” and his writing is intellectually engaging.

my point about the book is that sometimes one can learn something from reading a book written by someone whose sympathies are contrary to your own. i’m assuming a certain degree of hostility on your part to organized religion; i beg your pardon if i’ve presumed too much however.
 
tomarin said:
i’m assuming a certain degree of hostility on your part to organized religion; i beg your pardon if i’ve presumed too much however.
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I’m afraid you have done a little too much presuming but, you’re pardoned. 🙂

I’m a Jewess who’s lived in both what one might call ‘culturally Catholic’ and ‘culturally Protestant’ Europe and even the USA.

I suppose that you might say that I’ve got a ‘certain degree of hostility’ to there being too rosy a picture of the ‘great’ heritage.
 
Kaninchen said:
What on earth does that mean - from the invented threat of ‘Muslim barbarism’ to the laws that ‘can be changed overnight’?

A final solution to the Muslim problem, perhaps?
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‘Muslim barbarism’ - exactly what it says, unless you don’t consider Islamic laws to be barbarous. Fanatical Muslims have murdered several Europeans for merely expressing a negative opinion of Islam, if that’s not barbarism, what is? If treating females as the equivalent of donkeys is not barbarous, what is?

‘A final solution’ ? Don’t put words into my mouth. Nobody mentioned a Nazi-style ‘final solution’. The ‘Muslim problem’ can be solved by tightening the immigration laws and stopping the flood of Muslims into Europe.
 
LaMar said:
Europe has never been very beautiful and Muslims aren’t going to ruin it. Muslims took over Spain and ruled it for hundreds of years. It was consistently the wealthiest, most tolerant, most pleasant place to live on the continent. It was only when the reconquista started that the country went down the tubes.

I could make a conversion to Islam tomorrow, and live the rest of my life as a Muslim. What would I have to change about my life? Almost nothing. In 50 years, the average European will be a Muslim. There will still be hospitals in Europe. There will still be fine dining. There will still be museums. If anything, I envy you people. Here in the supposedly secular USA (which actually is “beautiful”) we’ve had a slow coup of fundamentalist whack-jobs who will remake North America in the same time frame, and these idiots are my odds on favorites to destroy the entire world.
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“Muslims aren’t going to ruin it”

Muslims have ruined parts of Europe already - eg, Malmo in Sweden; Paris, where Muslims have destroyed millions of dollars worth of cars and other property; and especially the UK where there are many Muslim no-go areas.

It was only when the reconquista started that the country went down the tubes.

If the Spaniards had been happy to be second class citizens (dhimmies) in their own country, the reconquista would never have occurred. And El Cid would not be a national hero. I take it you approve of Muslims invading other countries and forcing their religion onto the population.
 
deLeontine said:
‘Muslim barbarism’ - exactly what it says, unless you don’t consider Islamic laws to be barbarous. Fanatical Muslims have murdered several Europeans for merely expressing a negative opinion of Islam, if that’s not barbarism, what is? If treating females as the equivalent of donkeys is not barbarous, what is?
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Fanatical Catholics killed thousands in the UK in the last few decades, if that’s not barbarism, what is?
‘A final solution’ ? Don’t put words into my mouth. Nobody mentioned a Nazi-style ‘final solution’. The ‘Muslim problem’ can be solved by tightening the immigration laws and stopping the flood of Muslims into Europe.
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What flood? If you were talking about the hundreds of thousands of Catholics from Eastern Europe, you’d be more accurate.
 
Kaninchen said:
I’m afraid you have done a little too much presuming but, you’re pardoned. 🙂

I’m a Jewess who’s lived in both what one might call ‘culturally Catholic’ and ‘culturally Protestant’ Europe and even the USA.

I suppose that you might say that I’ve got a ‘certain degree of hostility’ to there being too rosy a picture of the ‘great’ heritage.
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i know – i’ve read your profile. shalom.
 
PatThePoet said:
It seems that Europe has fallen.

France and the UK are becoming more secular (driven headlong by the rantings of millitant atheists like Dawkins) and Islamified (more Muslims attend mosque than Christians attend churches)

The great cathedrals of England, France, Spain, Germany, and the beautiful Jesuit churches of Swizerland are more like museums than places of Christian worship.

Scandanavia is pretty much atheist/secular. The state Lutheran churches are empty and Catholics are pretty much non-existant.

In Ireland, the last great Catholic stronghold of the British Isles, secularism is on the rise as people leave the church each year.

All over Western and Northern Europe, church attendance numbers dwindle. The upkeep of these buildings is costing Catholics and Protestants that they don’t have and many churches are being sold off as apartments or offices.

Polls show that huge percents of Europeans hold atheistic beliefs. While Islam continues on the upward trend.

How long will it be untill Notre Dame is sold off, her windows shattered, stonecraft smashed, and turned into a mosque on the Seine? Or when York Minister has her crosses torn down and replaced by crecents? When Munich’s Baroque churches are turned to warehouses? Or when St. Paul’s becomes “Richard Dawkin’s Temple of Reason”?

What has this world come to?

Some say that Christanity’s downfall in the West is proof that religious nonsence and myth can’t survive in an age of reason. While a Christian may counter with “The church is growing in Asia and Africa”, it is evident that those nations are less educated that the secular West. Is Christanity just another religion that grew up, held the world on a string, divided, and fell?

What is the truth? :confused:
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I never thought I’d be the one to say this but:
easy now! take in a deep breath and count to ten my friend.
What is the truth… Jesus is the Truth… and the truth is… the church is in ruins.

I’ll tell you where the problem really is. Because people in Europe are as thirsty as ever and they are eager to embrace the first lie that comes walking up to them in return of a sense of meaning to their life. Which of the lies are most active? new age, atheism and islam.

So where is the problem: the problem is found in the Church itself… inside of it. Yep… we are here… in Europe… there are many churches and many of them have fairly many congregants as well as “museum-visitors”… the problem is, when they come, which all europeans do a few times in their lives at the rites of passage, they are not being preached to. The Living Word does not even get a chance at being active… coz its not preached.
People dont see nor hear anything extraordinary in the church… they see a bunch of people who look, speak, and act like the rest of society and a bunch of pastors and priests and ministers that tickle their ears…

Its written in the end times there will be many false teachers… they will tell people what they want to hear…they will make them sleepy and fall a sleep so the devil can easily come in.

Where are the apostles?
Show me one man who preaches repentance and salvation and around whom the commandments to love and do mighty works and miracles are evident… and I will walk to him on my own two feet…

Don’t shout: “we are being taken over!” Rather shout: “We are letting ourselves get taken over!”… the Church has lost its faith in its own message…

😦 Grace
 
Kaninchen said:
I suppose that you might say that I’ve got a ‘certain degree of hostility’ to there being too rosy a picture of the ‘great’ heritage.
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by the way, the pope’s book is concerned solely with the moral and practical consequences of secularism and moral relativism. he barely mentions muslims or immigration at all.

don’t you think people need to believe in something other than just themselves? as chesterton said, “when people stop believing in god, they don’t believe in nothing – they believe in anything.”
 
tomarin said:
as chesterton said, “when people stop believing in god, they don’t believe in nothing – they believe in anything.”
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nonsense! you are making the mistake of underestimating the atheists.
 
AgnosTheist said:
nonsense! you are making the mistake of underestimating the atheists.
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nature abhors a vaccuum, and so if your creed is based on a gigantic negation, all kinds of things will fly in to fill the void. just the other day i saw a bumper sticker in my neighborhood that read “pro-life? go vegan”. to me that indicates a collosal misplacement of priorities.

chesterton also said “if there were no God, there would be no atheists.”
 
^ Nature doesnt care what you put or dont put in your head. Atheists dont believe anything. Chesterton is wrong on this one.
 
^ Nature doesnt care what you put or dont put in your head. Atheists dont believe anything. Chesterton is wrong on this one…
 
AgnosTheist said:
^ Nature doesnt care what you put or dont put in your head. Atheists dont believe anything. Chesterton is wrong on this one…
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he’s saying it’s because they don’t believe in anything they will uncritically accept shoddy substitutes for religion.
 
tomarin said:
by the way, the pope’s book is concerned solely with the moral and practical consequences of secularism and moral relativism. he barely mentions muslims or immigration at all.
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Business as usual, as I said.
don’t you think people need to believe in something other than just themselves? as chesterton said, “when people stop believing in god, they don’t believe in nothing – they believe in anything.”
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Far too many assumptions there.
 
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