chart of anti-Catholic religions?

[Petergee]

You’re trying to make something out of less than nothing, Steadfast. 99% of the Catholics who voted for the Centre Party would have voted for ANY other party before the Nazis and the Communists. Even if, as you ludicrously claim, the Concordat effectively “removed” the Centre Party, its supporters would emphatically not have joined the Nazi party. And even if they had, Hitler never allowed another election anyway.

There was an interesting study done a few years ago (by a Lutheran) to determine what social/political/economic/religious/any other factors correlated with or against popular electoral support for the Nazis. (He could do this because Germany keeps excellent detailed records of peoples’ religions, incomes, origin, and of voting figures from each village, district and suburb.) He looked at things like the local unemployment rate, proportion of Jews and foreigners in the population, whether the area had been occupied by foreign troops after WW1, how it had been affected by WW1 bombing, civil unrest, economic sanctions, penalties and reparations arising from Versailles etc. etc. He failed to find any correlation with any of these things. The ONLY predictive statistic was the proportion of Catholics in the population. Invariably the more Catholics in the population, the fewer votes the Nazis received.

There’s an amazing pair of maps on the web showing this, I’ll try to find it unless someone beats me to it.

Your claims about Pius XII and the Church supporting Nazis is a crock of BS and I think you know it.

Oh and btw the other Nazi leaders didn’t have to be excommunicated because they had already formally left the Church. Germany allows its citizens to formally leave or join any religion simply by filling out a form. That’s why its stats on religion are so accurate.

 

[po18guy]

In '33 Hitler was the Chancellor. He was not the President, that was Bismarck. It is not true to say that he was already “in power” in the sense that he had no obstacles to complete State take over.

Germany was a republic with a parliament called the Reichstag. After WWI several parties were competing for control of the Reichstag, among them Communists, Social Democrats, Christian Democrats, etc. The National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP: the Nazi’s) and the Catholic Center Party (Katholisches Zentrumspartei: KZP) were the two largest conservative groups.

Without the removal of the latter, NSDAP would not have been a majority in the Reichstag. The Reichskonkordat effectively dissolved the KZP, removing them as an obstacle.

NSDAP never enjoyed greater than 37% of the popular vote. In a multi-party system often the only way to consolidate, if coalition is impossible (and the KZP would not form a coalition with NSDAP) is to effect the removal of ones opponents.

The Concordat destroyed an important conservative parliamentary bloc, moving much of the popular support for the KZP into the NSDAP along with nearly all their parliamentary seats.

This was just one of Hitler’s first steps in getting control into his own hands.

As an aside, do you know who the only high ranking Catholic Nazi ever excommunicated was?

It was Josef Goebbels.

Do you know why he was excommunicated?

Was it for crimes against humanity? For the murder of millions of innocent people?

No.

It was because he married a Protestant.

I guess you have to draw a line somewhere.

Al Capone went to prison for tax evasion. So there.

 

[rpp]

In '33 Hitler was the Chancellor. He was not the President, that was Bismarck. It is not true to say that he was already “in power” in the sense that he had no obstacles to complete State take over.

Germany was a republic with a parliament called the Reichstag. After WWI several parties were competing for control of the Reichstag, among them Communists, Social Democrats, Christian Democrats, etc. The National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP: the Nazi’s) and the Catholic Center Party (Katholisches Zentrumspartei: KZP) were the two largest conservative groups.

Without the removal of the latter, NSDAP would not have been a majority in the Reichstag. The Reichskonkordat effectively dissolved the KZP, removing them as an obstacle.

NSDAP never enjoyed greater than 37% of the popular vote. In a multi-party system often the only way to consolidate, if coalition is impossible (and the KZP would not form a coalition with NSDAP) is to effect the removal of ones opponents.

The Concordat destroyed an important conservative parliamentary bloc, moving much of the popular support for the KZP into the NSDAP along with nearly all their parliamentary seats.

This was just one of Hitler’s first steps in getting control into his own hands.

As an aside, do you know who the only high ranking Catholic Nazi ever excommunicated was?

It was Josef Goebbels.

Do you know why he was excommunicated?

Was it for crimes against humanity? For the murder of millions of innocent people?

No.

It was because he married a Protestant.

I guess you have to draw a line somewhere.

Aside from being false, this is off topic.

No clergy had been elected to the Reichstag thus the concordat you cited did not have an impact.

Also since Otto von Bismark died in 1898, it would have been rather difficult for him to be president of Germany in 1933. Another person was president, a former WWI general, von Hindenburg. He died in 1934 and Hitler merged the president and chancellor posts and assumed the both titles.

Finally, you stated that the concordat was signed in 1933 by “Pius”. Pope Pius XII was not elevated to Pope until 1939 can the then Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli signed on at the request of Pope Pius XI. You also left out the fact that similar agreements were gleefully signed by other protestant churches including the Lutheran Church.

As I said, aside from your posts being factually incorrect, they are off topic.

 

[Steadfast]

RRP<

Thanks for the correction.

I was going from memory with the names.

But the substance of the post, that the Concordat effectively got rid of the Center Party and made room for NSDAP’s parliamentary rise remains true.

As for the Lutherans there is no question but that they colluded with the Nazi’s at the very highest levels of their leadership but this was not generally until long after '33.

 

[jnt29904]

OOPS… this is the second part, first part is below this, Sorry for the mistake…Continued from last post,

In your opinion. Please stop evading my question of why we should take your authority as to what the Bible means, and yours alone above the opinion of everyone else who has ever read the Bible.

The problem with this question is you take no opinion other than that of the Catholic church. You give them no room for error, the Catholic church does many things that are great and any honorable organization would be proud to part of… But they also do things that are not biblical. I trust my preacher very much, BUT I will not let my spirit hang on his words, I filter everything he says or anyone else says through the Word of God. It is hard to believe something for so long and then suddenly be told that you may be making a mistake. First we dont like to admit that we may be in disobedience or ignorance, it goes against the grain of the flesh but if we only humor the person with the suggestions, we will learn something, even if it is that “wow I dont agree with this guy at all”. As people, we become biased on what we are accustomed to believing and that is only natural. We must set aside our bias beliefs (that may even be true), but in the event of testing ourselves and our allegiences we must dive in with an open mind. Attempting earnestly to learn everything we can and see if what we come out with is the same as what we have been taught by man. If we do this with integrity and a heart that seeks only the face of God (and not just for the reason of proving our opinion or belief to be pure) then we may learn some new things. If we learn nothing, oh well, is it not worth a scriptural renewing investigation to make sure that we are in complete obedience.

You asked why you should take my authority of Biblical interpretation over other.

None of us should take anyone elses interpretation without first setting aside momentarily everything that has been taught to us by unperfect men. Cleaning out our minds of ALL preconcepted ideas on Gods nature and His Will for us. Then after serious and continual prayer, picking up His Word reading through it, and studying it as we do so, again ignoring what other men have told us of what They think we should believe, and like for the very first time picking up the Bible and receiving it as our personal Guide book to serve God the way that He wants to be served. When we have done this a couple of times then we can, again momentarily pick up those things taught to us by other men and send them through the spiritual strainer that we have now aquired in our hearts (without the aid of organizations). I believe that then and only then can we truly start molding what our beliefs should be. If they are consistant with the beliefs we already held then thats ok, it just gives us a more familiar understanding of what we already believed. In my opinion this can change alot about what we have always viewed as truth and what is Gods Truth. This is my opinion and I am in no way claiming to know it all, but what I do no is that the Bible is always the filter, our churches are not.

God Bless,

Jason

 

[jnt29904]

Hello again, Ill try and get a little in before I hit the sack…

by Pixie…Does your Bible not have 1 Corinthians 5 in it? Most of the time in the Catholic Church barring someone from the sacrament of Holy Communion did not mean they were kicked out of the church. In the case of someone who continually sins without repentance, they’ve effectually kicked themselves out, wouldn’t you say?

Yes, and I agree with 1 Corinth 5 and anything else in the Bible. Here is a link that will likely anger some of you but be assured that is not my intention, I only would like your opinion on it.

unmaskingcatholicism.com/Chapter-06.shtml

Yes I do agree, that if someone lives in sin unrepentant condemns themselves.

Do you believe in the eternal security of the believer or do you believe that we can live our lives in such a way that our salvation is forfeited?

This is a very interesting subject, First we are predestined to either live for Jesus or for Satan (ourselves). With this in mind I don’t know if I believe that we can lose our salvation but rather if we appear too, then we may not have been truly sincere in our Heart and Soul about our dedication to Christ. If I live for Christ for 15 yrs and then just decide to give up on Him and live for myself then their was probably a problem regarding my salvation (I do believe in the ability to backslide temporarily). But to answer your question, in my opinion if someone stops living for God and begins to live in sin and die in that sin, they will not make it to heaven (of course this is Gods judgement and this is only my opinion).

OK, we’re starting to get somewhere. But the page is published by “we” unidentified (angelfire is merely a generic host which sells its web services to all comers), and gives no home link, in fact no links at all, so I have no idea who published it though I can make a good guess.

Who authored the page is irrelavent, the only thing that matters is if what they quoted from the different references was copied correctly. If so it would be hard to defend the catholic churches postition on the trinitarian baptism if the Bible (Peter, Pauls multiple commands), its own historical documentation, and the other Historical readings that were quoted, are all in agreement.

Why do you keep hiding? If you are so convinced that your organisation has the truth, why not proudly proclaim what it is?

I am not hiding, I am not convinced that my organization has the Complete truth, I do believe that their are pieces of truth in a few of the Christian denominations. I have not found one denomination that I would agree with everything they teach and I dont know if it is even possible. I go to an independant church that claims no denomination, their are about 25 members. Like I said I dont think a organization has all the answers only Jesus does, but I believe that the Bride of Christ is constantly seeking truth and questioning doctrines for scriptural integrity. Once a denomination organizes they start letting the world in, and over time they push little bits of truth out to appease someone (the little things always add up to be Huge). Look at the presbyterians, they might as well kick all the true christians in their denomination out, or make them, divorce and marry another homosexuals if they want to stay. I believe the Bride is made up of many people from different organizations that only want to be part of ONE spiritual church. That church fights for truth and doesnt allow the clergy so much power that they become corrupt and not only hurt their own denomination but all christianity.

…I have to continue on another post, not enough room.

 

[Albmore]

Well, private interpretation leads to disunity-witness the thousands of Protestant denominations, each if which is convinced that they are correct. If Christ is the Word made flesh, and is all truth, why are there so many conflicting opinions about what he said and meant? Why did Christ appoint one head of the church before He ascended?

Look at it this way: At work you likely have a mission statement. Now, do you have a supervisor who directs the work, or does everyone just read the mission statement by themselves then go and do whatever they think is right? Which method is more likely to ensure that the organization remains functional and goal-oriented? That’s why Christ left a shepherd in charge of the sheep. That is why Christ’s church appointed another shepherd when Peter died, and has ever since.

On this earth, we live in the kingdom of the evil one (Read Job 1:6-7). He sends many spirits to lead us to destruction. Such spirits lead us away from the fullness of truth and toward disintegration, and destruction. This results precisely in what we see with the thousands of denominations that all believe they know God’s intent. They privately interpreted scripture.

At the time of Christ, there was no private interpretation, since the vast majority of people were illiterate. Also, each scripture had to be meticulously hand copied, since it would be 1,400+ years before there was a method of mass production of printed matter in the Christian world (the printing press).

Witness also that Luther came about not long after the printing press. He privately interpreted scripture, and the presses allowed mass distribution of this erroneous material. Over time, the one Protestant church that Luther founded has shattered into an estimated 33,000+/- denominations. This is neither what Christ, nor even Luther wanted.

This is the result of private interpretation.

First do you not realize that it was Paul and not Peter who is responsible for writing most of the new test. after Jesus had gone. 2. It was the Germans who invented the printing press and the Catholics did not want the bible to get into others hands because they new thyt if the average man would read it that they would see the broad interpetation from the Catholic church that does not pass with the bible. 3. It was the Holy spirit left behind to guide Gods church not the Pope in a reincarnation form as the Dali Lama. 4. It is also very clear that it is Jesus that is the cornerstone on which the church is built not Peter.5. Most of these denomintations that you mention are also split often when their churches try to take on a dictatorship role as the Catholic church. 6. One of the biggest reasons for the Catholics policies is that you also wont see what role they will play in end time revelation.

Let me give you something to think about. The center of Europe is Germany. It was also a big part in the Roman empire which is being restored now through the EU. Now the major break away from the Catholic Church was mostly successful because of the printing press invented by who. Yes the Germans. Martin Luther was of what origin. German. In revelation in the letter to the churches he wrote to the church of Pergamum " I know where you dwell where Satans throne is", well that throne was located in todays Turkey. When the turks wanted to destroy it to use the land for something different, it was brought to Berlin Germany where it sets today. This was prior to WWII. After its design the Nürnenberg ring was designed where Hitler mad many of his speaches.
For us to living in the end times today much had to have happened first wars rumor of wars ect. Yes, this has happen all through history, but one major thing had to happen. WWII. Why? Because the major thing that had to happen for us to be in the last days is that Isreal once again be a nation. Proph. to the exact date. This had only happen due to the percecution of the Jews by the Germans in WWII that brought internation attention.
Now I think we can see Germanys place in Gods plan. Then we must also see Europes or should we say the prior Roman empire. Now what is the major religious force of this empire. Oh Yes.The Vatican and the Catholic church. Do you believe it is an accident the the current Pope is German? It is from this empire that the beast will arise our bibles tell us. They will make war against the Islamic lands of the east but then will join together to fight against Jesus himself.
Just a couple of more hints… Germany is the only country who never voted if they wanted to be in the EU.They were told they were by the Goverment. 2. Many claim the number of the beast will probally be in form of a computer chip. In the states many are already having chip implants. Well the Germans invented the chip. Once again is the German Pope just there by chance?

 

[Delraek]

First do you not realize that it was Paul and not Peter who is responsible for writing most of the new test. after Jesus had gone. 2. It was the Germans who invented the printing press and the Catholics did not want the bible to get into others hands because they new thyt if the average man would read it that they would see the broad interpetation from the Catholic church that does not pass with the bible. 3. It was the Holy spirit left behind to guide Gods church not the Pope in a reincarnation form as the Dali Lama. 4. It is also very clear that it is Jesus that is the cornerstone on which the church is built not Peter.5. Most of these denomintations that you mention are also split often when their churches try to take on a dictatorship role as the Catholic church. 6. One of the biggest reasons for the Catholics policies is that you also wont see what role they will play in end time revelation.

Let me give you something to think about. The center of Europe is Germany. It was also a big part in the Roman empire which is being restored now through the EU. Now the major break away from the Catholic Church was mostly successful because of the printing press invented by who. Yes the Germans. Martin Luther was of what origin. German. In revelation in the letter to the churches he wrote to the church of Pergamum " I know where you dwell where Satans throne is", well that throne was located in todays Turkey. When the turks wanted to destroy it to use the land for something different, it was brought to Berlin Germany where it sets today. This was prior to WWII. After its design the Nürnenberg ring was designed where Hitler mad many of his speaches.
For us to living in the end times today much had to have happened first wars rumor of wars ect. Yes, this has happen all through history, but one major thing had to happen. WWII. Why? Because the major thing that had to happen for us to be in the last days is that Isreal once again be a nation. Proph. to the exact date. This had only happen due to the percecution of the Jews by the Germans in WWII that brought internation attention.
Now I think we can see Germanys place in Gods plan. Then we must also see Europes or should we say the prior Roman empire. Now what is the major religious force of this empire. Oh Yes.The Vatican and the Catholic church. Do you believe it is an accident the the current Pope is German? It is from this empire that the beast will arise our bibles tell us. They will make war against the Islamic lands of the east but then will join together to fight against Jesus himself.
Just a couple of more hints… Germany is the only country who never voted if they wanted to be in the EU.They were told they were by the Goverment. 2. Many claim the number of the beast will probally be in form of a computer chip. In the states many are already having chip implants. Well the Germans invented the chip. Once again is the German Pope just there by chance?

Since your “history” (and I use the term loosely) is totally inaccurate, I certainly won’t be putting any credence in your prophecies! Catholic monks painstakingly hand-copied the Sacred Scriptures for centuries until the printing press was even invented, but I’m sure their intention was to hide it from everyone but themselves, right? Give me a break! These very valuable Bibles were chained to the podium in Catholic churches for anyone to come in and read them. (They were chained to help prevent theft as one Bible could cost an indivdual about 3 yrs salary.)

And the fact that Paul was very well educated and Peter was not, does not take away any of Peter’s authority!

 

[rpp]

First do you not realize that it was Paul and not Peter who is responsible for writing most of the new test. after Jesus had gone. 2. It was the Germans who invented the printing press and the Catholics did not want the bible to get into others hands because they new thyt if the average man would read it that they would see the broad interpetation from the Catholic church that does not pass with the bible. 3. It was the Holy spirit left behind to guide Gods church not the Pope in a reincarnation form as the Dali Lama. 4. It is also very clear that it is Jesus that is the cornerstone on which the church is built not Peter.5. Most of these denomintations that you mention are also split often when their churches try to take on a dictatorship role as the Catholic church. 6. One of the biggest reasons for the Catholics policies is that you also wont see what role they will play in end time revelation.

Let me give you something to think about. The center of Europe is Germany. It was also a big part in the Roman empire which is being restored now through the EU. Now the major break away from the Catholic Church was mostly successful because of the printing press invented by who. Yes the Germans. Martin Luther was of what origin. German. In revelation in the letter to the churches he wrote to the church of Pergamum " I know where you dwell where Satans throne is", well that throne was located in todays Turkey. When the turks wanted to destroy it to use the land for something different, it was brought to Berlin Germany where it sets today. This was prior to WWII. After its design the Nürnenberg ring was designed where Hitler mad many of his speaches.
For us to living in the end times today much had to have happened first wars rumor of wars ect. Yes, this has happen all through history, but one major thing had to happen. WWII. Why? Because the major thing that had to happen for us to be in the last days is that Isreal once again be a nation. Proph. to the exact date. This had only happen due to the percecution of the Jews by the Germans in WWII that brought internation attention.
Now I think we can see Germanys place in Gods plan. Then we must also see Europes or should we say the prior Roman empire. Now what is the major religious force of this empire. Oh Yes.The Vatican and the Catholic church. Do you believe it is an accident the the current Pope is German? It is from this empire that the beast will arise our bibles tell us. They will make war against the Islamic lands of the east but then will join together to fight against Jesus himself.
Just a couple of more hints… Germany is the only country who never voted if they wanted to be in the EU.They were told they were by the Goverment. 2. Many claim the number of the beast will probally be in form of a computer chip. In the states many are already having chip implants. Well the Germans invented the chip. Once again is the German Pope just there by chance?

I am not sure where you got your information, but very little of what you wrote actually happened. For example, Rome never completely conquered or occupied Germany (See this map.)

The Bible had been translated into many different languages long before the invention of the printing press by Gutenberg. Gutenberg, incidentally, was living in Strasbourg France when he invented and unveiled his printing press in 1440, long before Luther’s time. The famous, “Gutenberg Bible” was printed in Latin. German citizens, like those in France Belgium, etcs, which were founding members of the EU, voted numerous times as the European countries slowly moved forward to form the EU we know today. This process started shortly after WWII.

As for the center of Europe, that would, geographically speaking, be more like the Czech Republic.

You also try to make some hay about where Hitler got his ideas about this or that project. Hitler had no real original ideas. He stole symbols and architecture from numerous cultures. It cannot be held against the Indians (Hindus), for example, that he stole their symbol for “temple”, the swastika, and used it.

And what is this fantasy about Germany inventing computer chips? Sorry, but that is so demonstrably false that it cannot be reconciled with reality.

Also, as the pope reminded us recently, Christianity is not a European faith, but one from the Middle East (See article here.)

In short, there were so many inaccuracies in what you wrote, that it did not really contribute to this discussion.

Please be more careful to check your facts before you post.

 

[Petergee]

Yes, and I agree with 1 Corinth 5 and anything else in the Bible.

You have flatly contradicted several things in the Bible.

Here is a link that will likely anger some of you but be assured that is not my intention, I only would like your opinion on it.

unmaskingcatholicism.com/Chapter-06.shtml

Not angered, pleased that despite your evasions we now see exactly where you are coming from. If by some chance you actually want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, look in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (free online or cheap at bookshops), instead of blindly swallowing the absurd misrepresentations and blatant lies on hate sites like this.

 

[jnt29904]

Hello,

Not angered, pleased that despite your evasions we now see exactly where you are coming from. If by some chance you actually want to know what the Catholic Church teaches, look in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (free online or cheap at bookshops), instead of blindly swallowing the absurd misrepresentations and blatant lies on hate sites like this.

Glad your not angry, not sure where I have evaded I would like to know where so I can either admit my fault or explain myself.

Anyway, I didnt say that I swallow anything that anyone else has told me, that is the reason I have been asking for Biblical evidence to prove the things I have written or referenced to be wrong. The site I posted was an attempt to find out what you felt about the claims on the site that contradicts your doctrine. Not just that site is insane or they didnt spell a word right so they must be wrong about everything else, or its not what my priest told me so they are of the devil. Their was one response earlier that actually has me thinking and studying, and that was from over a week ago. That is what im looking for, some solid evidence from the Bible that what I am doing is wrong and what you are doing is right.

You have flatly contradicted several things in the Bible.

That is an interesting claim. Strange, for someone that seems so sure, that you for some reason provided no examples.

God Bless,

Jason

 

[Delraek]

Hi jnt29904,

You quoted above “First we are predestined to either live for Jesus or for Satan (ourselves).”

I have some questions:

Where in the Bible does it teach anything about predestination? Why wouldn’t God desire all of us to be saved? Of course, I believe that it’s up to us using our free will…

Since you equated Satan to ourselves, do you not believe Satan exists?

 

[Albmore]

I am not sure where you got your information, but very little of what you wrote actually happened. For example, Rome never completely conquered or occupied Germany (See this map.)

The Bible had been translated into many different languages long before the invention of the printing press by Gutenberg. Gutenberg, incidentally, was living in Strasbourg France when he invented and unveiled his printing press in 1440, long before Luther’s time. The famous, “Gutenberg Bible” was printed in Latin. German citizens, like those in France Belgium, etcs, which were founding members of the EU, voted numerous times as the European countries slowly moved forward to form the EU we know today. This process started shortly after WWII.

As for the center of Europe, that would, geographically speaking, be more like the Czech Republic.

You also try to make some hay about where Hitler got his ideas about this or that project. Hitler had no real original ideas. He stole symbols and architecture from numerous cultures. It cannot be held against the Indians (Hindus), for example, that he stole their symbol for “temple”, the swastika, and used it.

And what is this fantasy about Germany inventing computer chips? Sorry, but that is so demonstrably false that it cannot be reconciled with reality.

Also, as the pope reminded us recently, Christianity is not a European faith, but one from the Middle East (See article here.)

In short, there were so many inaccuracies in what you wrote, that it did not really contribute to this discussion.

Please be more careful to check your facts before you post.

First my information is not wrong. Germany had to get get permission from Rom to become a country first consisting of 4 states. 2. There was NO vote by the citizens of Germany to be in the EU. The government decided it for them. Ich wone in Deutschland und war heir durch das proccess). I livein Germany and was here through the process.3. I did not say Hitlers ideas were from God, but that God used the situation for the good of Isreal becomming a nation again. 4. The computer chip, Yes was invented in Germany. You can find many of the works in new tech. chips done from the company Zeiss.5. The forming of the EU began at the treaty of Rom. I know my facts very well.

 

[rpp]

First my information is not wrong. Germany had to get get permission from Rom to become a country first consisting of 4 states. 2. There was NO vote by the citizens of Germany to be in the EU. The government decided it for them. Ich wone in Deutschland und war heir durch das proccess). I livein Germany and was here through the process.3. I did not say Hitlers ideas were from God, but that God used the situation for the good of Isreal becomming a nation again. 4. The computer chip, Yes was invented in Germany. You can find many of the works in new tech. chips done from the company Zeiss.5. The forming of the EU began at the treaty of Rom. I know my facts very well.

You have made several claims, but have provided no reference or documentation back them up.

For example, your insistence that Germany invented the computer is, as I said before, so demonstrably false that it cannot be reconciled with reality. Jack Kirby, of Texas Instruments, located in Houston Texas, invented the integrated circuit (“computer chip”). see this article. If you disagree with that, I am afraid you will have to take it up with the Nobel Prize committee. Or just try a Google search on “Invention of the Computer Chip”.

So, admit you got this fact wrong and it will help your badly damaged credibility. Credible references in support of your other assertions would be appropriate as well.

But even so, your posts are moving way off topic. Please remain on topic.

 

[jnt29904]

Hello,

You quoted above “First we are predestined to either live for Jesus or for Satan (ourselves).”

I have some questions:

Where in the Bible does it teach anything about predestination? Why wouldn’t God desire all of us to be saved? Of course, I believe that it’s up to us using our free will…

Where? Predestination is plainly taught in the Bible. I have posted just a few of the references to predestination below. God does desire all to be saved, but that desire does not make it so, He allows us to choose Hell if we refuse to follow Him. God knows all things and knew all things before he created them and before His creations chose their end. God Knows the beginning from the end, He knew before the foundation of the earth who would choose Him and who would choose death. We must strive to know the Word of God as well as it is possible, it brings us closer to truth. We cant rely on others to save us or tell us what we need to know, that is between us and our Only mediator Jesus Christ. We can’t tell Jesus that our pastor or priest lied to us, that is no excuse: we have His Bible, the instructions for our life in Him. All He asks us for is our Love, Faith, and Obedience.

Since you equated Satan to ourselves, do you not believe Satan exists?

Yes Satan exists, if the Bible teaches it I believe it. What I meant was as follows:

We choose God or we choose Hell, their is only one choice to be made. If we dont choose God, then we have chosen to serve someone or something else. That something could be Satan, ourselves, our church, pornography, alcohol, etc etc… regardless what we choose instead of our Lord Jesus Christ, it is of Satan. Anything that is against God is for satan because that is his goal to distract us and make us do his bidding which can be anything contrary to Gods Word.

Here are a few of the scriptures that refer to predestination.

Eph 1:4-12

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
KJV

Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he foreknew , he also foreordained (to be) conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
ASV

Rom 11:1-3

11:1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew . Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
ASV

Yes we have free will, but God already knows what me and you will choose. We have already been judged and satan and his devilish companions have already lost. All we need to do now is trust in the Holy Spirit to lead us in truth.

God Bless,

Jason

 

[Delraek]

Hello,

Where? Predestination is plainly taught in the Bible. I have posted just a few of the references to predestination below. God does desire all to be saved, but that desire does not make it so, He allows us to choose Hell if we refuse to follow Him. God knows all things and knew all things before he created them and before His creations chose their end. God Knows the beginning from the end, He knew before the foundation of the earth who would choose Him and who would choose death. We must strive to know the Word of God as well as it is possible, it brings us closer to truth. We cant rely on others to save us or tell us what we need to know, that is between us and our Only mediator Jesus Christ. We can’t tell Jesus that our pastor or priest lied to us, that is no excuse: we have His Bible, the instructions for our life in Him. All He asks us for is our Love, Faith, and Obedience.

Yes Satan exists, if the Bible teaches it I believe it. What I meant was as follows:

We choose God or we choose Hell, their is only one choice to be made. If we dont choose God, then we have chosen to serve someone or something else. That something could be Satan, ourselves, our church, pornography, alcohol, etc etc… regardless what we choose instead of our Lord Jesus Christ, it is of Satan. Anything that is against God is for satan because that is his goal to distract us and make us do his bidding which can be anything contrary to Gods Word.

Here are a few of the scriptures that refer to predestination.

Eph 1:4-12

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
KJV

Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he foreknew , he also foreordained (to be) conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
ASV

Rom 11:1-3

11:1 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew . Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
ASV

Yes we have free will, but God already knows what me and you will choose. We have already been judged and satan and his devilish companions have already lost. All we need to do now is trust in the Holy Spirit to lead us in truth.

God Bless,

Jason

Yes, God is outside of time and knows what our choices will be - this is NOT the same as predestination. See definition below:

*predestination

The doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation.
The divine decree foreordaining all souls to either salvation or damnation.
The act of God foreordaining all things gone before and to come.
Destiny; fate. *

 

[paarsurrey]

Yes we have free will, but God already knows what me and you will choose. All we need to do now is trust in the Holy Spirit to lead us in truth.

Hi

If the Holy Spirit ie Gabriel could lead us to truth that means we all human beings could do good deeds and have good beliefs out of free will and get saved. This is the true balance of predestination and free will, I think.

Thanks

 

[jnt29904]

Only got a second, finals week, I will come back to reply in the next few days.

If the Holy Spirit ie Gabriel could lead us to truth that means we all human beings could do good deeds and have good beliefs out of free will and get saved. This is the true balance of predestination and free will, I think

Are you saying that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit?

God Bless,

Jason

 

[Prince_Hal]

is there a chart or reference somewhere out there that breaks down the anti-Catholic attitudes of other religions–especially Protestant sects? I am loooking for something that identifies those who are antagonistic toward Catholicism…you know the ‘whore of babylon’ ‘pope is the antichrist’ thing?

Mormon doctrine has to portray Catholicism as incorrect. Either there was a great and universal apostasy as the Mormons claim, with a loss of authority and the priesthood, which then had to be restored by Joseph Smith, or the church has continued since Christ. Either Catholicism or Mormonism to them.

In the Book of Mormon, they described the “great and abominable church… the whore of all the earth”.

This is clearly a reference to the Catholic church, but to “lighten” the apparent attack, it is now being interpreted as being any church that is not the true church, i.e. every church except the Mormon church.

To Mormons the Bible was put together by a committee - the Catholic church and it was that same church that took away many of the “plain and precious truths” from the Bible to leave us with a book that is the “word of God, so far as it is translated correctly”.

The Catholic church as well as most other Christian churches, offer the world the Cross of Christ. No such thing in the Mormon church - no crosses and no crucifixes. The Catholic church offers the world Mary, the Mother of God, who points always to her son. The Mormon church as well as many Christian churches wheel out Mary at Christmas as a child with a towel over her head, but place no more reliance in her than simply being an incubator for Jesus, and for Mormons another wife of God the Father.

Hope this helps a wee bit.

God bless,

Hal.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

Are you saying that Gabriel is the Holy Spirit?

yes Paar are you? this is the second time this week I have heard this reference to Gabriel as being the Holy Spirit and I have never heard it before. Someone on a group I am on actually claimed that the Greek term used for when Gabriel ‘came unto’ Mary was sexual in nature and Gabriel was the father of Christ! (as the Holy Spirit?) I was flabbergasted.