"Chaste" same-sex dating ok with Church?

[Philology]

Brother, please reconsider; Elts1956 did not say that you were mentally ill. Many people see counselors for many reasons other than schizophrenia, psychosis, bi-polar, depression, and so on. I would venture to say that the non-mentally ill make up the bulk of their workload. You’re talking to us online, and that’s nice, we’ll always be here to support you in your spiritual journey, but talking to someone in person is even better.

Now I’m not saying that you should, I’m not saying that you shouldn’t, but I want to emphasize that psychology is a legitimate discipline, and the people who use it should not be disparaged.

BTW, thank you for praying for me. I appreciate it greatly.

Elts1956 was suggesting I recieve the help of a counselor, when I have clearly dealt with SSA my entire life, and believe its effects (as well as the “disorder” as Elts1956 might consider it) cannot be countered to say the least. What should I reconsider? I am labeled as “disordered” by many who would also call me “brother”, His Holiness would also consider me “disordered”.

There is no one to talk to, and infact my parents don’t even know of my SSA. All of my support I recieve from Catholic Answer Forums. I am alone. My parents would disown me if they found out, I have no friends worthy of trusting, and now it even seems God has abandoned me. My options are few.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Elts1956 was suggesting I recieve the help of a counselor, when I have clearly dealt with SSA my entire life, and believe its effects (as well as the “disorder” as Elts1956 might consider it) cannot be countered to say the least. What should I reconsider? I am labeled as “disordered” by many who would also call me “brother”, His Holiness would also consider me “disordered”.

There is no one to talk to, and infact my parents don’t even know of my SSA. All of my support I recieve from Catholic Answer Forums. I am alone. My parents would disown me if they found out, I have no friends worthy of trusting, and now it even seems God has abandoned me. My options are few.

Wow, considering how people with SSA are discussed, I’m surprised you consider this a place for support. I would recommend that you look into Courage. I know everyone recommends it, but there are good resources there. You may not be able to attend a meeting in person, but there is an online support group via yahoo groups. Check into it because there are people there who understand what it’s like. CAF is definitely NOT the place to come to find support for your struggle with SSA.

 

[AddictedToTruth]

There is no one to talk to, and infact my parents don’t even know of my SSA. All of my support I recieve from Catholic Answer Forums. I am alone. My parents would disown me if they found out, I have no friends worthy of trusting, and now it even seems God has abandoned me. My options are few.

My Friend,

I know this must be hard for you. There are many times in life where it seems as though God has abandoned you, but be assured He is never far away! I know that’s very hard to believe at times, however, in my experience, its exactly at these times where I find God is encouraging me to grow in my faith and become a better person. Trust in Him, for through Him you will find lasting peace.

In regard to your response to Elts1956, I don’t think his/her intention was to be rude, I think this person was trying to help you the best way he knew how. Obviously you feel hurt by this comment which I would say is understandable, but I would urge you to be reciprocally understanding of him. That is to say, please be kind in your response, as I’m sure he was only trying to help, even if you found the way he expressed it was rude.

I also want to say that for a person of 15 you seem to have done a lot of deep thinking/introspection and your writing is very articulate and poetic. I find this very cool!

In Sincere Friendship and Love,

Truth Addict

 

[MarianD]

Some Catholics need to read the Catechism.

*2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.*

I see nothing in here about the following which so many Catholics think:

#1: Banning of friendships (it even says “by the support of disinterested friendship”). The Catechism seems to allow homosexuals to have friends.
#2: Hatred of homosexuals and seeing them as “unnatural”. The Catechism says that there should be zero discrimination against them. We are all loved by God, and anyone deemed worthy of God’s Love should be and is worthy of our love as well.

Now that is what the Catechism says. Below is what I say and not what the Catechism says. But I’ll still add it:

#3: Honestly, I see nothing banning relationships. You’d have to think of WHY people date. A lot of you on this forum see dating as courting. I see them as two different things.

• Courting: Seeing someone else for the intention of future marriage, if that person “proves” themselves worthy.
• Dating: Seeking a more intimate companionship with someone else. May or may not lead to courting depending on the desires of the daters.

I think that if a homosexual wants to have a purely dating relationship, he/she can. However, such a relationship cannot be intended to lead towards marriage and it must be 100% chaste (sex-free). While this is VERY hard to do, it can be done. In fact, this sounds a lot like the type of opposite-sex dating I’m looking for right now in my teenage years. No sex? Check. No intention for marriage? Check (unless, of course, the girl is extremely special to me). Seeking closer companionship with someone who makes me feel good and with someone who I truly care about? Check. The only difference is that I’m a male looking to date a female, while someone with SSA would be someone looking to date someone of the same gender.

 

[Philology]

I’m done here.

 

[TheQuestioner]

I would call the complete dismissal of same-sex relationships hateful.

Something I take from the Bible and that I understand to be a legitimate reading is that we must do all we can to interpret it accurately. Like most anything, the Bible can have meanings projected onto it by the reader. Christ often spoke in parable etc. and taught us how to decipher/think into things. I would argue that He intends us to do the same with the Bible. Should Christian action be guided by what you have quoted OR by the love amongst humans that Jesus promotes? If there is a conflict, what is paramount? What comes out on top of the two? Should we understand that the parts that applied then have the exact same direct application now or should we try harder to decipher and apply to Bible to the modern world? What do you think?

Ok then…how would you interpret those passages?

 

[shondrea]

I have many friends. Most of them are guys like me. I don’t have SSA. I would never even dream of taking them out to movies, or dinner, or anything like that.
.

I think this could be a debatable thing, or maybe just a guy thing. I’m a straight chuck, and my BFF is straight, but we take each other to the movies, take each other out for dinner, to the Zoo, concerts, etc all the time. To me, two friends going out to dinner together and one paying is a normal, fine thing, and doesn’t have to have any courting involved whatsoever. It’s not the activity, it’s the intention

 

[shondrea]

Brother, please reconsider; Elts1956 did not say that you were mentally ill. Many people see counselors for many reasons other than schizophrenia, psychosis, bi-polar, depression, and so on. I would venture to say that the non-mentally ill make up the bulk of their workload. You’re talking to us online, and that’s nice, we’ll always be here to support you in your spiritual journey, but talking to someone in person is even better.

Now I’m not saying that you should, I’m not saying that you shouldn’t, but I want to emphasize that psychology is a legitimate discipline, and the people who use it should not be disparaged.

BTW, thank you for praying for me. I appreciate it greatly.

I dunno, I got the same kind of tone from her post. To me, it seemd like she just JUMPED on it, a;;, omigoodness, you like guys, you need to go see your priest right now so you can know why you’re like this!"
a “counselor” ain’t gonna do nothing. getting to the root of any psychological damage, assuming there IS any, would take years with a trained clinical psychiatrist, not some social worker.

Sorry, but in my exoerience, counselors and social workers and the like just talk about how to ignore stuff and move on. My last one actually had to go to WIKIPEDIA to diagnose my depression.

ANYway, my pont is, he was offended by the fact that she automatically assumed there was something to CAUSE this, that there was some horror in his past that made him like guys

 

[TheQuestioner]

Apparently not. It seems that people with SSA are completely unable to control themselves and become animalistic at the very notion of being alone with a member of the same-sex. /sarcasm

Does anyone have any CLUE as to how demeaning these kinds of discussions and judgments about people with SSA are? I already feel unwelcome in the Church because of SSA. I can’t have a vocation. I can’t get married. Now, I’m supposed to be completely alone all the time and have no friends?

This is the Church that GOD created?

But no one on this thread said any of that though.

As we were saying, the intent matters when going out on events. Having coffee could be an activity that a straight person could do with the opposite sex without it being a date, but it can be done with romance as an intent as well. The intent matters in such cases.

That being the case, a married person, and a gay person could have coffee with friends of the opposite or same sex respectively, but as soon as romance is the intent (thus becoming a date) it should not be done.

However, there are activities where it is culturally implied that romance is the intent, for example with straight couples it would be things like going to the movies as a pair or being alone with a person and watching a movie at the other persons place when it is late. I don’t think anyone would want their husband to go to the movies alone with another person’s wife or see a movie at his single female friend’s place from 10pm to 12pm alone, even if he swears nothing happened. It would cause scandal with the entire neighborhood. For homosexuals, there can be some breathing room, because assuming no one else knows the two of you are gay there would be no scandal. However, if people know that you are both gay then just like with the married man and the single woman, things will be inferred about what you were doing at another gay person’s house at 10pm. You need to be careful.

Such activities are ok for a straight couple because they are allowed to date, but for homosexuals (who cannot date) those activities can cause great scandal (if everyone is aware of your SSA).

That being the case, it is not that homosexuals cannot have friends of the same sex, but they must be careful as to how they present themselves, and they cannot date (pursue a romantic relationship).

No one is bashing homosexuals on this thread. We are trying to present realistic options and scenarios.

 

[shondrea]

Also, what’s with all this freaking out over affection and what PEOPLE MIGHT THINK "gasp* yeah, I know, we shouldnt cause scandal, but COME ON!

My friends and I, we love each other. We hug, we kiss each others cheeks, we hold hands and squeal with each other when we’re happy and excited. we’ll sling our arms around each others shoulders and laugh. But ccording to a lot I’m getting here, this is hrrible because it will be assumed we are lesbians.

I can hug a girl without bing gay. I can hug a guy without falling into a crazed lust. Why would it be any different if I was a lesbian? If a homosexual cannot come to church with someone they’re close to because people will assume they’re unchaste and sinful and full of gay lust, what akes it ok for me to go to church with a gal pal that I hug goodbye to at the door? is physical affection now so perverted in our inds that we should all keep arms lengthj between us to that gossips will keep their minds out of the gutter? Should a straight dating couple not attend church together because people MIGHT THINK they’ve had premarital sex?

Why can’t we just flip the genders involved and keep the same standards for people with SSA?

 

[Philology]

I dunno, I got the same kind of tone from her post. To me, it seemd like she just JUMPED on it, a;;, omigoodness, you like guys, you need to go see your priest right now so you can know why you’re like this!"
a “counselor” ain’t gonna do nothing. getting to the root of any psychological damage, assuming there IS any, would take years with a trained clinical psychiatrist, not some social worker.

Sorry, but in my exoerience, counselors and social workers and the like just talk about how to ignore stuff and move on. My last one actually had to go to WIKIPEDIA to diagnose my depression.

ANYway, my pont is, he was offended by the fact that she automatically assumed there was something to CAUSE this, that there was some horror in his past that made him like guys

I’m glad you understand how I felt when I read her post. I agree, a counselor is not needed.

 

[Chris258]

As a Catholic with SSA, I feel a need to weigh in on this. There are too many posts to respond to individually, so I will simply state my mind on this issue and respond only to one earlier post.

First, I think the notion that two homosexual Christians could be involved in chaste, same-sex “dating” without presenting immense spiritual dangers to themselves is ridiculous, and the pursuit itself probably constitutes sin of some sort. A guy and a girl don’t get involved in chaste dating for friendship; they do it to test the waters of romance and discern marriage and mature sexual union. Likewise, two homosexual Christians can’t get involved in anything that could conceivably be called dating without such an end in play, even if they’re in denial about it.

With that said I turn to the same-sex friendships of homosexuals. First, not implying that anyone in this thread has so claimed, the notion that a male homosexual like myself cannot be involved in loving and deep friendships with other men without presenting spiritual danger to oneself is both ludicrous and insulting. I have a few very deep friendships with other Christian men, and the goodness and joy of those relationships has actually given me strength and rest in the fight against my homosexual urges. We hug each other regularly, go to movies or restaurants both one-on-one and in a group, have heartfelt man-to-man conversations, write letters to one another, and say “I love you” to each other. They’re all heterosexual, if you want to know.

I’m sure many guys out there would balk at such activity between friends. This, I think, is a major contribution to the problem: the idea of male friendships has been so impoverished with the growing societal presence of homophobia and warped ideals of masculinity. The reason why I am able to participate in such living relationships is because I discovered that true, Christian, and biblical friendship is not about what kind of emotional sustenance I can get out of it; it is about mutual sacrifice, love, and growth as Christian men.

A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity. [Proverbs 17:17]
A man of many companions may come to ruin, but there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother. [18:24]
Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses. [27:6]
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. [27:17]

Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. [John 15:13]

My friendships with these men are not about me, my homosexuality, or what kind of perverse or pathetic, grasping sustenance I can get out of them. I pour my heart out for my friends’ sake; I give myself for them in the hopes that they can be loved, loving, and mature Christian men.

Now that I’ve made that clear, I also agree with the many here who emphasize the need to be discerning and honest about one’s intentions and feelings when involved in same-sex friendships. If before God you honestly can’t say that you aren’t having struggles with romantic or sexual thoughts toward friends of your gender, then you must be doubly cautious of the level of intimacy, especially physical, you participate in. While it may or may not be silly to completely cut off contact with the friend, you must take steps to ensure your spiritual health.

Philology:

I have SSA, am 15, and will be Catholic within a year. I have much of the same questions about what relationships are tolerated and which are inherently wrong. I refuse to consider myself gay, because people who are “gay” embrace the lifestyle which comes with the word; I instead prefer “SSA” when I refer to my condition.

I am dealing with the biggest crush I have ever had for someone in my life (I suppose I might say “madly in love”, but I don’t like using the phrase), and this person who I love is a boy my age. Just last night I experienced a hug from a different boy, and am wondering if what I did was a sin, and/or whether or not me hugging the boy I have a crush on would be a sin. I genuinely care about this boy, and infact I think about him every hour of the day. I cannot stand being away from him; even if I’m only away from him for an hour. I want to spend the rest of mt life with him, though I know this notion is complete nonsense.

Congratulations on your joining the Catholic faith, brother. I was fully initiated only two years ago. I’m now 23 years old, and from my own experience, I must advise you to take major precautions in your struggle here. I fooled myself into thinking I could get into an intimate friendship with someone I had very similar feelings about, and over time it simply got more and more out of control. I came out of that situation having done some pretty severe spiritual damage to myself; thankfully through both the strength and purity of my other friendships and my eventual separation from this friend God has achieved much healing in me.

I ask you in all humility, brother, to take counsel in prayer with God and yourself. Ask him for wisdom and clear sight in this struggle, and the strength to do what needs to be done to guard your fidelity to him, who is to be our most beloved above all others.

To give something of an answer to your questions, I don’t think you should concern yourself mostly with “was the hug a sin?” or “would hugging him be a sin?” (personally, I don’t think accepting a hug from him would be sinful) but the examination I noted above.

 

[markomalley]

I have read some posts (both on CAF and elsewhere) suggesting that if same-sex lovers decide to be chaste and refrain from sexual activity, that they are not required to “break up”. I have even seen posts from people who themselves claim to be in this type of same-sex relationship, even sleeping in the same bed at times, but not doing anything sexual. So it seems the same-sex equivalent of an invalidly married heterosexual couple “living as brother and sister” is ok? Or is it?

I understand that the Church teaches that same-sex attraction by itself is not sinful, but sexual acts between those of the same sex are not only sinful, but are mortally so. However, does that mean that it is ok for people with SSA to “date” as long as they remain chaste? How chaste would they have to be? Obviously nothing involving genitals, but would the Church consider it a sin for same-sex couples to kiss, or embrace? Or to present themselves as a “couple” at all?

I have SSA, am 15, and will be Catholic within a year. I have much of the same questions about what relationships are tolerated and which are inherently wrong. I refuse to consider myself gay, because people who are “gay” embrace the lifestyle which comes with the word; I instead prefer “SSA” when I refer to my condition.

I would refer you, in addition to the pertinent paragraphs out of the Catechism, to the following from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:

• Declaration on certain questions concerning sexual ethics – Persona humana (29 Dec 1975)
• Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons – Homosexualitatis problema (1 Oct 1986)
• Some considerations concerning the response to legislative proposals on the non-discrimination of homosexual persons (July 23, 1992)
• Considerations regarding proposals to give legal recognition to unions between homosexual persons (July 31, 2003) (31 Jul 2003)

The key point out of all of the above documents can be boiled down to this one sentence:Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.(HP 3)I feel great sympathy for people who have homosexual inclinations. They have a cross which I cannot imagine carrying, particularly if they choose to live virtuously. Considering how strong the sex drive is with any of us, one who is homosexual but manages to resist those inclinations deserves great respect from any thinking person. Although you may not be a Michael Voris fan, he lays this out very well in this recent video (and he handles it, imho, in a very sensitive fashion)

 

[Philology]

As a Catholic with SSA, I feel a need to weigh in on this. There are too many posts to respond to individually, so I will simply state my mind on this issue and respond only to one earlier post.

First, I think the notion that two homosexual Christians could be involved in chaste, same-sex “dating” without presenting immense spiritual dangers to themselves is ridiculous, and the pursuit itself probably constitutes sin of some sort. A guy and a girl don’t get involved in chaste dating for friendship; they do it to test the waters of romance and discern marriage and mature sexual union. Likewise, two homosexual Christians can’t get involved in anything that could conceivably be called dating without such an end in play, even if they’re in denial about it.

With that said I turn to the same-sex friendships of homosexuals. First, not implying that anyone in this thread has so claimed, the notion that a male homosexual like myself cannot be involved in loving and deep friendships with other men without presenting spiritual danger to oneself is both ludicrous and insulting. I have a few very deep friendships with other Christian men, and the goodness and joy of those relationships has actually given me strength and rest in the fight against my homosexual urges. We hug each other regularly, go to movies or restaurants both one-on-one and in a group, have heartfelt man-to-man conversations, write letters to one another, and say “I love you” to each other. They’re all heterosexual, if you want to know.

I’m sure many guys out there would balk at such activity between friends. This, I think, is a major contribution to the problem: the idea of male friendships has been so impoverished with the growing societal presence of homophobia and warped ideals of masculinity. The reason why I am able to participate in such living relationships is because I discovered that true, Christian, and biblical friendship is not about what kind of emotional sustenance I can get out of it; it is about mutual sacrifice, love, and growth as Christian men.

My friendships with these men are not about me, my homosexuality, or what kind of perverse or pathetic, grasping sustenance I can get out of them. I pour my heart out for my friends’ sake; I give myself for them in the hopes that they can be loved, loving, and mature Christian men.

Now that I’ve made that clear, I also agree with the many here who emphasize the need to be discerning and honest about one’s intentions and feelings when involved in same-sex friendships. If before God you honestly can’t say that you aren’t having struggles with romantic or sexual thoughts toward friends of your gender, then you must be doubly cautious of the level of intimacy, especially physical, you participate in. While it may or may not be silly to completely cut off contact with the friend, you must take steps to ensure your spiritual health.

Congratulations on your joining the Catholic faith, brother. I was fully initiated only two years ago. I’m now 23 years old, and from my own experience, I must advise you to take major precautions in your struggle here. I fooled myself into thinking I could get into an intimate friendship with someone I had very similar feelings about, and over time it simply got more and more out of control. I came out of that situation having done some pretty severe spiritual damage to myself; thankfully through both the strength and purity of my other friendships and my eventual separation from this friend God has achieved much healing in me.

I ask you in all humility, brother, to take counsel in prayer with God and yourself. Ask him for wisdom and clear sight in this struggle, and the strength to do what needs to be done to guard your fidelity to him, who is to be our most beloved above all others.

To give something of an answer to your questions, I don’t think you should concern yourself mostly with “was the hug a sin?” or “would hugging him be a sin?” (personally, I don’t think accepting a hug from him would be sinful) but the examination I noted above.

Thank you brother; I cannot describe my appreciation for your reply. “we few, we proud few, we band of brothers” I am glad to call you my brother in faith.

Peccata remissionem non ab sacerdotes, sed credo in unum deum, et gratia deum est in meum. Salvete amici latinae. Sorry for my bad latin. Pater Noster benedictus nostra. Meum frater; meum amicus.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Also, what’s with all this freaking out over affection and what PEOPLE MIGHT THINK "gasp* yeah, I know, we shouldnt cause scandal, but COME ON!

There is no “COME ON!” when it comes to scandal. We shouldn’t care what people might think normally, but when what we do causes people to think it is alright to do it, and they end up sinning because they tried to follow our example (which may be a near occasion of sin) then the blood is in our hands for misleading our brothers.

My friends and I, we love each other. We hug, we kiss each others cheeks, we hold hands and squeal with each other when we’re happy and excited. we’ll sling our arms around each others shoulders and laugh. But ccording to a lot I’m getting here, this is hrrible because it will be assumed we are lesbians.

Well…no. No one would assume you are lesbians because this type of behavior is normal for girls.

If guys hug and kiss cheeks and hold hands and squeal and sling their arms around each other then it is assumed they are gay. This is simply because you don’t see straight guys holding hands and squealing and constantly hugging like girls do. Some of these actions will not be interpreted as gay in certain places, but when all these behaviors are exhibited together constantly by two males or a group of males whenever they happen to be around each other they will be assumed gay.

I can hug a girl without bing gay. I can hug a guy without falling into a crazed lust. Why would it be any different if I was a lesbian? If a homosexual cannot come to church with someone they’re close to because people will assume they’re unchaste and sinful and full of gay lust, what akes it ok for me to go to church with a gal pal that I hug goodbye to at the door? is physical affection now so perverted in our inds that we should all keep arms lengthj between us to that gossips will keep their minds out of the gutter? Should a straight dating couple not attend church together because people MIGHT THINK they’ve had premarital sex?

…no one said any of that. Why do those who seek to be sensitive to the struggles of homosexuals behave as if anyone who tries to state a fact like some sort of bigot?

A straight dating couple should attend Church together. In fact doing so would make others tend to think they are not having sex.

 

[elts1956]

I would call the complete dismissal of same-sex relationships hateful.

Something I take from the Bible and that I understand to be a legitimate reading is that we must do all we can to interpret it accurately. Like most anything, the Bible can have meanings projected onto it by the reader. Christ often spoke in parable etc. and taught us how to decipher/think into things. I would argue that He intends us to do the same with the Bible. Should Christian action be guided by what you have quoted OR by the love amongst humans that Jesus promotes? If there is a conflict, what is paramount? What comes out on top of the two? Should we understand that the parts that applied then have the exact same direct application now or should we try harder to decipher and apply to Bible to the modern world? What do you think?

Excuse me? The last I heard, the Bishop of Rome, the Pope and the Magisterium have interpreted the Bible, Tradition etc. for those who are Catholic. Individual interpretation of Bible passages is used by most Protestant denominations and is called Sola Scriptura, in which ANY interpretation goes. Perhaps an exception to this is the Anglican Church, am not sure about that.

Jesus loved/loves all. I have never seen in the Bible that He tolerates sin. Check the Catholic Catechism not just your interpretation of the Bible to see what the Church says about sexually active homosexuals.

The Truths given to us by the Catholic Church NEVER change. What you are using is Relativism in which there are no Aboslute Truths, only subjective truths with small “t s”.

 

[TheQuestioner]

I know this may ruin my reputation amongst others on this thread but to be honest, I will have to agree with elts1956.

Phil, I remember on a past thread you said that you used to be straight, but later you developed homosexual attraction. So your homosexuality (or since you are also attracted to girls bisexuality) is definitely not genetic (in fact there is no gay gene). That being the case, why would someone suggesting a counselor and talking with a priest be insulting? elts1956 is not saying you are crazy, but that there may be some psychological basis for this attraction. I myself wouldn’t rule out a hormonal basis.

There are groups within the Church that help homosexuals live a chaste life, maybe you could get in touch with them. They don’t rule on whether or not you have psychological problems, but offer support and help in your struggles (and not by trying to turn you “un-gay” I assume) .

 

[elts1956]

I dunno, I got the same kind of tone from her post. To me, it seemd like she just JUMPED on it, a;;, omigoodness, you like guys, you need to go see your priest right now so you can know why you’re like this!"
a “counselor” ain’t gonna do nothing. getting to the root of any psychological damage, assuming there IS any, would take years with a trained clinical psychiatrist, not some social worker.

Sorry, but in my exoerience, counselors and social workers and the like just talk about how to ignore stuff and move on. My last one actually had to go to WIKIPEDIA to diagnose my depression.

ANYway, my pont is, he was offended by the fact that she automatically assumed there was something to CAUSE this, that there was some horror in his past that made him like guys

The “kid” is 15 for pete’s sake. No insult intended just advice which I would repeat. My goodness, I really thought this was the progressive age of enlightenment in which counselors who help with “possible” psychological prolems are not hunted for being witches or warlocks.

Also, what is the difficulty with “running” to a priest to ask for help in sorting out feelings which may affect one for the rest of one’s life. Oh no, let’s just gloss over this and say, poor guy, he just can’t help “feeling” the way he does. After all he was “born” that way. I really do think puberty is the time when hormones run rampant. Correct me if I am mistaken.

So many teens err when they think they can “take care of all their problems” with no outside help. Even adults can’t take care of all their problems without intervention at some time in their lives. Give me a break.

 

[elts1956]

I dunno, I got the same kind of tone from her post. To me, it seemd like she just JUMPED on it, a;;, omigoodness, you like guys, you need to go see your priest right now so you can know why you’re like this!"
a “counselor” ain’t gonna do nothing. getting to the root of any psychological damage, assuming there IS any, would take years with a trained clinical psychiatrist, not some social worker. i disagree. It depends on the expertise of the counselor, or psychologist.
Sorry, but in my exoerience, counselors and social workers and the like just talk about how to ignore stuff and move on. My last one actually had to go to WIKIPEDIA to diagnose my depression.

ANYway, my pont is, he was offended by the fact that she automatically assumed there was something to CAUSE this, that there was some horror in his past that made him like guys

Depends on what type of counselor you go to. I have seen some great changes in folks who have someone who is non-jugemental to talk to about their confusions, anxieties etc. And since active sexual homosexuality is a Mortal sin (I’m not saying this young man has delved into this, get it straight please), don’t you think some good spiritual advice would be called for?" This isn’t just a gee what movie am I going to see next situation, but one that will affect his eternal life.

 

[elts1956]

As a Catholic with SSA, I feel a need to weigh in on this. There are too many posts to respond to individually, so I will simply state my mind on this issue and respond only to one earlier post.

First, I think the notion that two homosexual Christians could be involved in chaste, same-sex “dating” without presenting immense spiritual dangers to themselves is ridiculous, and the pursuit itself probably constitutes sin of some sort. A guy and a girl don’t get involved in chaste dating for friendship; they do it to test the waters of romance and discern marriage and mature sexual union. Likewise, two homosexual Christians can’t get involved in anything that could conceivably be called dating without such an end in play, even if they’re in denial about it.

With that said I turn to the same-sex friendships of homosexuals. First, not implying that anyone in this thread has so claimed, the notion that a male homosexual like myself cannot be involved in loving and deep friendships with other men without presenting spiritual danger to oneself is both ludicrous and insulting. I have a few very deep friendships with other Christian men, and the goodness and joy of those relationships has actually given me strength and rest in the fight against my homosexual urges. We hug each other regularly, go to movies or restaurants both one-on-one and in a group, have heartfelt man-to-man conversations, write letters to one another, and say “I love you” to each other. They’re all heterosexual, if you want to know.

I’m sure many guys out there would balk at such activity between friends. This, I think, is a major contribution to the problem: the idea of male friendships has been so impoverished with the growing societal presence of homophobia and warped ideals of masculinity. The reason why I am able to participate in such living relationships is because I discovered that true, Christian, and biblical friendship is not about what kind of emotional sustenance I can get out of it; it is about mutual sacrifice, love, and growth as Christian men.

My friendships with these men are not about me, my homosexuality, or what kind of perverse or pathetic, grasping sustenance I can get out of them. I pour my heart out for my friends’ sake; I give myself for them in the hopes that they can be loved, loving, and mature Christian men.

Now that I’ve made that clear, I also agree with the many here who emphasize the need to be discerning and honest about one’s intentions and feelings when involved in same-sex friendships. If before God you honestly can’t say that you aren’t having struggles with romantic or sexual thoughts toward friends of your gender, then you must be doubly cautious of the level of intimacy, especially physical, you participate in. While it may or may not be silly to completely cut off contact with the friend, you must take steps to ensure your spiritual health.

Congratulations on your joining the Catholic faith, brother. I was fully initiated only two years ago. I’m now 23 years old, and from my own experience, I must advise you to take major precautions in your struggle here. I fooled myself into thinking I could get into an intimate friendship with someone I had very similar feelings about, and over time it simply got more and more out of control. I came out of that situation having done some pretty severe spiritual damage to myself; thankfully through both the strength and purity of my other friendships and my eventual separation from this friend God has achieved much healing in me.

I ask you in all humility, brother, to take counsel in prayer with God and yourself. Ask him for wisdom and clear sight in this struggle, and the strength to do what needs to be done to guard your fidelity to him, who is to be our most beloved above all others.

To give something of an answer to your questions, I don’t think you should concern yourself mostly with “was the hug a sin?” or “would hugging him be a sin?” (personally, I don’t think accepting a hug from him would be sinful) but the examination I noted above.

Good clear thinking and advice. May God keep you near in your struggles.