Chastisements?

[TPJCatholic]

Intense hurricane seasons that swept through Florida in late summer, early fall–killing many people and destroying billions of dollars worht of property.

Earthquake induced tsunami kills over 150,000 people, likely many more will die and many more will become ill. Destruction of untold number of homes, leaving thousands homeless.

Mount Saint Helens re-activates.

California flooding, with mountainsides covering homes–killing people.

California towns evacuated due to flooding and too much water being retained by a local dam.

California rivers flooding, with a small mountain community trapped, three bridges washed out by the floods.

Indiana swamped with horrendous snowstorms.

Ohio preparing for major storm related flooding.

There are many other events to speak of…are these events signs of a divine chastisement, or are they just unfortunate natural events with coincidental timing?

 

[wabrams]

Unfortunate natural events. These things are always happening, just usually not commonly at the same time.

 

[TPJCatholic]

wabrams,

Do you believe that God brings chastisments upon us, ever? If yes, how do we know?

 

[wabrams]

TPJCatholic:

wabrams,

Do you believe that God brings chastisments upon us, ever? If yes, how do we know?

I don’t know if I believe that or not. If he does, I don’t think we can know 100%; we just speculate.

 

[manualman]

Consider this. If a big Tsunami swept over a mostly unpopulated region on the other side of the world, would it make the news? No. That time would be spent on Brad and Jen ‘news’ instead.

What may appear to us to be a big increase in natural disasters is merely the manifestation of two things.

1. Increasing population.
2. Media access to more of the world.

No, I’m not a ‘population bomb’ shreiker. But it IS logical to see that greater numbers of people cover more ground to live on. Thus, an equal number of extreme natural events will produce MORE newsworthy disasters.

Something to remember as this effect increases in the next few years.

Chastisements? I dunno. I think it better to say that God can use ANYTHING to draw us nearer to Him.

 

[wisdom_3_5]

TPJCatholic:

There are many other events to speak of…are these events signs of a divine chastisement, or are they just unfortunate natural events with coincidental timing?

When chastisements occur in the Bible there is usually a prophet that was warning the people about it and what they could do (repent) to avoid the chastisement. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, He won’t change the way He does things. Was someone predicting these things? Was there a prophet?

 

[Michael_C]

I believe these are natural events. God shares in our sorrow. If God did these types of things to punish people it would be much more obvious.

Peace.

 

[TPJCatholic]

wisdom,

I agree completely, yet if we look at the statements that have come out Fatima, and other visions, it seems possible we have received warnings already.

I am a 47 year-old man, born in 1957 and I can tell you that our culture has drifted incredibly far even in the short span of 47 years. Consider:

*** In 1957 unborn babies were not being slaughtered at a rate of 1,500,000 per year, as it is today.

*** In 1957 fornication (sex outside of marrirage) happened, but if far more rare and was still considered a grave sin. Today, fornication and living together is the norm.

*** In 1957 homosexual acts were considered to be gravely disordered and homosexuals were forced to hide their conditions and they were taught that acting on those types od disorders were grave sins. Today, those very same acts are lifted-up as being divinely given and they are being protected to a point of the absurd.

*** In 1957 divorce happened, but it was far more rare. Today the divorce rates are frighteningly high, with no real end in sight.

*** In 1957 there was no such thing as embryonic stem cell research. Today we tinker with human life as if we personally created it.

*** In 1957 there was no human cloning. Today we have scientists that are itching to create the first clone, with some of the applications being to harvest the clones for “parts.” Life is a throw-away thing in that environment.

*** In 1957 seventy-percent or more of all Catholics attended Mass and went to confession. Today, only 30% of Catholics attend regular Mass, and a frighteningly low percentage (less then 5%) go to confession.

*** In 1957 most Catholics accepted all of the teachings of the faith. Today, most Catholics do NOT accept all of the teachings of the faith.

*** In 1957 we did not have 4% of our clergy abusing minors. Yet, in the last 30-40 years we saw a horrible spike in sinfulness from our clergy that saddens the hearts of nearly every human.

That is just a partial list–much more can be added. Yet, it seems to me that we, as a people and nation, must learn to repent and turn back to God, today.

 

[Michael_C]

TPJCatholic, If this is from God, how do we explain innocents being killed in asia and the likes of Zarkawi who cuts heads off of “Infedels” roaming around “unpunished”?

 

[TPJCatholic]

Michael,

I have no way of knowing if we are under chastisement from God, which is the main reason for posting this thread, to get some othetr (name removed by moderator)ut.

However, there have been plenty of times in salvation history when innocent people and children have been killed during chastisement. The OT has many accounts like those. Also, think of the “sacking” of Jerusalem in 70AD with the destruction of the Temple. Jesus had foretold those painful events, and it is likely that innocent adults and children died in those events–that was a chastisement from God.

 

[Michael_C]

TPJCatholic:

Michael,

I have no way of knowing if we are under chastisement from God, which is the main reason for posting this thread, to get some othetr (name removed by moderator)ut.

However, there have been plenty of times in salvation history when innocent people and children have been killed during chastisement. The OT has many accounts like those. Also, think of the “sacking” of Jerusalem in 70AD with the destruction of the Temple. Jesus had foretold those painful events, and it is likely that innocent adults and children died in those events–that was a chastisement from God.

I’m not so much arguing the innocents that are victims but rather the vague message that is sent. I think, as in Soddom and Gomorra, a chastisment from God would be obvious.

 

[TPJCatholic]

Michael,

I tend to agree–it is easier to think that God’s chastisement would be completely clear…yet has that always been so? The Israelites were warned of coming wrath many times, yet they scoffed at the warnings–to them the warning was not at all clear (though their doubt did not stop God’s chastisement).

We have seen an increase in visions from our Lady over the last 80 years, most of them not yet approved by the Church…yet Fatima is most telling and also contains significant warnings of chastisements if we do not turn. Suffering always has a reason, which is rooted in sin. I suppose there is a lesson everytime suffering occurs…yet trying to discern the lesson can be very difficult.

 

[wabrams]

TPJCatholic:

wisdom,

I agree completely, yet if we look at the statements that have come out Fatima, and other visions, it seems possible we have received warnings already.

I am a 47 year-old man, born in 1957 and I can tell you that our culture has drifted incredibly far even in the short span of 47 years. Consider:

*** In 1957 unborn babies were not being slaughtered at a rate of 1,500,000 per year, as it is today.

*** In 1957 fornication (sex outside of marrirage) happened, but if far more rare and was still considered a grave sin. Today, fornication and living together is the norm.

*** In 1957 homosexual acts were considered to be gravely disordered and homosexuals were forced to hide their conditions and they were taught that acting on those types od disorders were grave sins. Today, those very same acts are lifted-up as being divinely given and they are being protected to a point of the absurd.

*** In 1957 divorce happened, but it was far more rare. Today the divorce rates are frighteningly high, with no real end in sight.

*** In 1957 there was no such thing as embryonic stem cell research. Today we tinker with human life as if we personally created it.

*** In 1957 there was no human cloning. Today we have scientists that are itching to create the first clone, with some of the applications being to harvest the clones for “parts.” Life is a throw-away thing in that environment.

*** In 1957 seventy-percent or more of all Catholics attended Mass and went to confession. Today, only 30% of Catholics attend regular Mass, and a frighteningly low percentage (less then 5%) go to confession.

*** In 1957 most Catholics accepted all of the teachings of the faith. Today, most Catholics do NOT accept all of the teachings of the faith.

*** In 1957 we did not have 4% of our clergy abusing minors. Yet, in the last 30-40 years we saw a horrible spike in sinfulness from our clergy that saddens the hearts of nearly every human.

That is just a partial list–much more can be added. Yet, it seems to me that we, as a people and nation, must learn to repent and turn back to God, today.

And I’m sure there were people in 1957 talking about how society was going down the crapper compared to how it was in 1910 and 1863 and 1816 and etc etc.

 

[TPJCatholic]

wabrams,

I am certain you are right, that every generation tends to think things are falling apart. However, look at my short list again, most of those things simply did not exist until the last few decades, and when they did exist nations fell as a result.

 

[wabrams]

TPJCatholic:

wabrams,

I am certain you are right, that every generation tends to think things are falling apart. However, look at my short list again, most of those things simply did not exist until the last few decades, and when they did exist nations fell as a result.

Give me a break. Society is always changing. Look at the Roman Empire, they had homosexuality and PLENTY of fornication and they lasted several hundred years. People are always opposed to scientific research when it startd to make leaps and bounds from what has always been accepted. Organ transplants were once considered radical science and possibly unethical; now it’s a very normal. And what if someone didn’t have to wait years for a transplant but weeks? Grow a new organ from samples of a healthy “donor” and viola! There’s your new organ. I’m all for cloning organs and stem cell research. It will only better health care in the long run.

 

[TPJCatholic]

wabrams,

And…Rome fell after they became excessively debased. Also, if you study Rome’s history, they slowly became more-and-more debased, embracing homosexuality and fornication more completely as time passed (just as the United States is now doing). Deep sexual immorality is a sign of cultural degradation.

One cannot appropriately compare organ transplants to embyronic stem research or to human cloning or to the wholesale medical slaughter of 1.5 million babies every year. In the case of organ transplants a person’s life is not taken in order to save/help another. Science, when used appropriately, is a tool God provides us to help improve our lives; however, like everything else, science can be perverted and mis-used.

 

[TPJCatholic]

wabram,

BTW, I was not speaking about stem cell research. I am sure you know that the only “real” advances in that area have been made with adult stem cells…NOT embryonic stem cells. It is the embryonic stem cells that people are pushing to harvest (that is murder). Also, cloning organs from cells taken from a donor is also fully ethical; however, cloning entire humans just to harvest their organs is not at all ethical. Again, science can be good and bad…it can cure diseases and it can create atomic weapons.

 

[wabrams]

TPJCatholic:

And…Rome fell after they became excessively debased. Also, if you study Rome’s history, they slowly became more-and-more debased, embracing homosexuality and fornication more completely as time passed (just as the United States is now doing). Deep sexual immorality is a sign of cultural degradation.

Actually it went in the reverse of what you just stated. Christianity pushed those things underground.

TPJCatholic:

One cannot appropriately compare organ transplants to embyronic stem research or to human cloning or to the wholesale medical slaughter of 1.5 million babies every year. In the case of organ transplants a person’s life is not taken in order to save/help another. Science, when used appropriately, is a tool God provides us to help improve our lives; however, like everything else, science can be perverted and mis-used.

You can easily compare organ translplant to cloning. There are very few scientist that want to clone a whole human and then harvest them. Most want to clone the specific organ that needs to be replaced. Embryonic stem cell research will eventually come about. We need to exhaust the research on human stem cells before we can gain any usefull knowledge from embryonic stem cells.

 

[Michael_C]

wabrams:

Actually it went in the reverse of what you just stated. Christianity pushed those things underground.

You can easily compare organ translplant to cloning. There are very few scientist that want to clone a whole human and then harvest them. Most want to clone the specific organ that needs to be replaced. Embryonic stem cell research will eventually come about. We need to exhaust the research on human stem cells before we can gain any usefull knowledge from embryonic stem cells.

Maybe we can clone humans to perform certain jobs that noone wants and manipulate the way they think. Eventually we can do away with most of the population and only have those people created by science to serve a priviledged few? This is great! Once we control everything who needs God?

 

[TPJCatholic]

wabrams,

Embryonic stem research is the same as abortion. Are you saying that abortion is fine?

I am not sure what you are saying with your comment about the Church pushing things underground?

Be careful not to rely to heavily on science.