Chastity and homosexuality

[Suppression]

I am struggling with how to talk about homosexuality and chastity with my homosexual best friend. I got him to look at Pure Love Club, the chastity out reach program of Catholic Answers. The problem is he read the section “How can people say that homosexuality isn’t natural?" and noticed immediately that they claim " Overall, the life expectancy of homosexual men is 38 years, which is about half that of heterosexual men.” I agree with him. I don’t believe this information. In five minutes I found two research documents that suggested at least a 68 year life expectancy. He believes that they did this to scare people and overtly lie to them. I understand that he is over reacting to what I believe was very poor research on the part of this outreach program of Catholic Answers. I was actually really disappointed to see anything associated with catholic answers claiming such a statistic.

Now I tried to discuss some of their writings on pornography and masturbation but because of that one sentence he believes them to be bigots and “gay bashers.” For example he read part of the masturbation discussion and he was in such a bad place mentally that he read into the document things that were not there. Now I have a problem because I want to keep the discussion open with him, but I don’t know where to go to get information for us to look at. I believe that if I can approach the chastity issues with him first, i.e. independent of the homosexuality issues, I will have more success. He is so sensitive to the homosexuality and church issues that if he sees something he disagrees with he doesn’t just disagree he completely dismisses anything they have to say. I know that the homosexuality issue is an important thing, but I believe I can help him more right now by backing away from that and getting him to start thinking about human sexuality within its proper context.

I want to help him as best I can. He is a very good friend of mine and I want to do what I can. Can anyone please offer and suggestions on where I can get information for use to discuss that is available online? I know he won’t read a book or anything like that and I need to carefully read anything I provide him with. Can anyone offer any chastity discussion groups or sites that the both of us could look at together? I know I have my chastity issues, which are the same as his even though I am heterosexual, and I want this to be something we can look at together. Thank you.

 

[Mirdath]

Unless he brings it up, you’re out of bounds anyway. And if he isn’t Catholic, Church law isn’t binding on him, and he probably won’t think much of the usual arguments (especially those springing from ‘natural law’) that are trotted out all the time.

If he did start the conversation and wants to hear your take on it… uh, good luck, I guess? I’m not exactly qualified to help with that part

 

[blessedtoo]

Kudo’s to you for trying with your friend. Your complaint against CA is unfounded. There are many stats about the life expectancy for homosexuals:
renewamerica.us/columns/bates/050607

ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/26/3/657
The Vancouver study was conducted by a team of pro-gay researchers, who, upon finding that pro-family advocates were using the results of their research as confirmation for their beliefs about the risks of the homosexual lifestyle, issued a statement trying to curb this unintended after-effect.

Reduced Life Span. A study published in the International Journal of Epidemiology on the mortality rates of homosexualsconcluded that they have a significantly reduced life expectancy:

In a major Canadian centre, life expectancy at age twentyfor gay and bisexual men is eight to twenty years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality were to continue, we estimate that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged twenty years will not reach their sixty-fifth birthday. Under even the most liberal assumptions, gay and bisexual men in this urban centre are now experiencing a life expectancy similar to that experienced by all men in Canada in the year 1871.[78]
frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS01B1

Life expectancy of homosexual men and women without AIDS is about 33 years shorter than that of the heterosexual (Cameron, Playfair, Wellum, The Homosexual Lifespan, Family Research Institute, Feb 14, 1992).
new-life.net/hmsxl01.htm

 

[Catholig]

Unless he brings it up, you’re out of bounds anyway. And if he isn’t Catholic, Church law isn’t binding on him, and he probably won’t think much of the usual arguments (especially those springing from ‘natural law’) that are trotted out all the time.

If he did start the conversation and wants to hear your take on it… uh, good luck, I guess? I’m not exactly qualified to help with that part

Suppression, I don’t have much to say right NOW, except I wouldn’t listen to the quoted comment, because as I remember it being said on EWTN, all people are required to follow the rules of the church (i.e. what is a sin for a catholic is still a sin for others - however that said I don’t want to mislead you that knowledge of the sin and intent don’t matter. If you don’t already know read up on the qualifications of a mortal sin).

Catholig

 

[Other_Eric]

Kudo’s to you for trying with your friend. Your complaint against CA is unfounded. There are many stats about the life expectancy for homosexuals:
renewamerica.us/columns/bates/050607

Indeed, since death is right around the corner for your friend, this should impel a sense of urgency for you. You should not disregard the rigors of science.

 

[1ke]

www.couragerc.net is a ministry to homosexuals that promotes the teachings of the Catholic Church. Perhaps they will have some information that will be useful to you and your friend.

Good luck.

 

[Mirdath]

Suppression, I don’t have much to say right NOW, except I wouldn’t listen to the quoted comment, because as I remember it being said on EWTN, all people are required to follow the rules of the church (i.e. what is a sin for a catholic is still a sin for others - however that said I don’t want to mislead you that knowledge of the sin and intent don’t matter. If you don’t already know read up on the qualifications of a mortal sin).

Oh sure, everybody has to follow Catholic standards… because Catholics said so. I’m not disputing that homosexual sex is a sin according to the Church, and that it considers all such actions sinful no matter the religion or lack thereof of those who commit it. But not all people live by those rules, and they have a right to do so if they choose. And if someone else wants to do that and isn’t acting criminally, nobody has any right to impose other standards on him or her – and trying to do so will likely cost the friendship.

 

[hlmem]

Oh sure, everybody has to follow Catholic standards… because Catholics said so. I’m not disputing that homosexual sex is a sin according to the Church, and that it considers all such actions sinful no matter the religion or lack thereof of those who commit it. But not all people live by those rules, and they have a right to do so if they choose. And if someone else wants to do that and isn’t acting criminally, nobody has any right to impose other standards on him or her – and trying to do so will likely cost the friendship.

I agree

 

[goofyjim]

If one is not actively engaged in homosexual activity how is the life expectancy any less than heterosexual males? I intend to live a long life despite my cross of ssa. And I don’t need therapy to change it either so don’t try to convince me of that exorbitant expense.

 

[blessedtoo]

If one is not actively engaged in homosexual activity how is the life expectancy any less than heterosexual males? I intend to live a long life despite my cross of ssa. And I don’t need therapy to change it either so don’t try to convince me of that exorbitant expense.

Friend,
These stats refer to active homosexuals. Those of us on the forum who are familiar with your posts, applaud your incredible courage and unwavering faith. I suspect you could probably PROVIDE therapy to many!

 

[StCsDavid]

It sounds like his heart is closed right now to hearing the truth, but that doesn’t mean it always will be. Continue to be his friend. Give him an example in the way you conduct your own life, and most important of all…pray for him. I’ve yet to hear of a homosexual who was scared straight by facts and figures. We’re talking about a conversion of the will. That’s God’s territory. Prayer is really going to be your best tool, IMHO.

 

[Exalt]

It sounds like his heart is closed right now to hearing the truth, but that doesn’t mean it always will be. Continue to be his friend. Give him an example in the way you conduct your own life, and most important of all…pray for him. I’ve yet to hear of a homosexual who was scared straight by facts and figures. We’re talking about a conversion of the will. That’s God’s territory. Prayer is really going to be your best tool, IMHO.

Err… “Heart closed”?

There is one common theme with certian Catholics on this forum: If a person seems to be unlikely to agree with what the Church says on something, their “heart is closed.” That is, they’re not *really *open to the possibility of *actually *believing what you say. They’ve closed themselves off to the possibility of converting to Christianity, or believing a certain Christian doctrine.

My question to you, however, is simple: Are you willing to open yourself to the possibilty of converting *away *from Christianity - or *not *believing in that certain Christian doctrine?

If you are *not *willing to honestly open yourself up to that possibilty when attempting to convert someone, then you have no right to attempt to do so. The Golden Rule goes both ways. If your heart is not open to believing the other person, you had better not criticize them for thier heart not being open to believing you.

However, let me say this. It’s normal and honest to say that you’re not willing to open yourself up to converting away from Christianity. That’s fine. You can still have a dialogue with your non-religious friend. But don’t make it your goal to convert him. Don’t say his “heart is closed” - your heart and mind is just as closed to believing what he has to say.

 

[blessedtoo]

Err… “Heart closed”?

There is one common theme with certian Catholics on this forum: If a person seems to be unlikely to agree with what the Church says on something, their “heart is closed.” That is, they’re not *really *open to the possibility of *actually *believing what you say. They’ve closed themselves off to the possibility of converting to Christianity, or believing a certain Christian doctrine.

This IS a Catholic forum, Exalt.

My question to you, however, is simple: Are you willing to open yourself to the possibilty of converting *away *from Christianity - or *not *believing in that certain Christian doctrine?

Many of us have come TO Christianity FROM that place of which you speak. Many of us know exactly what life is like, good and bad, on that “other side”. And from my vantage point now, I can honestly say that my heart was most definately closed back then. There was never any honest dialogue because when one is immersed in the life, they simply can’t and won’t hear anything in opposition. There is simply too much to lose. You’ve been posting for quite some time 'round these parts. Tell me, have you been even slightly “converted”?

If you are *not *willing to honestly open yourself up to that possibilty when attempting to convert someone, then you have no right to attempt to do so. The Golden Rule goes both ways. If your heart is not open to believing the other person, you had better not criticize them for thier heart not being open to believing you.

The thing about that Golden Rule is that there must be a right and a wrong somewhere in there. There is an objective truth to the matter which is not subject to being “open”. I can certainly believe it when my homosexual friends tell me they think or “believe” that their lifestyles are perfectly normal. I believe that they believe that. Is this what you mean? Or are you suggesting that we, as Catholics, are supposed to be “open” to the idea that this lifestyle itself is normal? If so, I can assure you that will not happen.

However, let me say this. It’s normal and honest to say that you’re not willing to open yourself up to converting away from Christianity. That’s fine. You can still have a dialogue with your non-religious friend. But don’t make it your goal to convert him. Don’t say his “heart is closed” - your heart and mind is just as closed to believing what he has to say]

In case you aren’t aware, there are many Christian homosexuals out there. So the issue isn’t being converted away from Christianity by an effective pro-homosexual argument. The issue is objective truth and you can be as open as a window on a spring day but still hold fast to the truth.

 

[Exalt]

And from my vantage point now, I can honestly say that my heart was most definately closed back then. There was never any honest dialogue because when one is immersed in the life, they simply can’t and won’t hear anything in opposition.

I’m sorry to hear that. In my opinion, you can still be open to dialogue, but not be open to conversion. They’re not mutually exclusive. Representation of your ideas is one thing; attempting to have someone else believe them is something completely different (Prosyletizing?).

There is simply too much to lose. You’ve been posting for quite some time 'round these parts. Tell me, have you been even slightly “converted”?

I change every day. Am I “closer” to becoming a Christian? No. Am I closer to God/The Truth? I think so.

The thing about that Golden Rule is that there must be a right and a wrong somewhere in there. There is an objective truth to the matter which is not subject to being “open”. I can certainly believe it when my homosexual friends tell me they think or “believe” that their lifestyles are perfectly normal.

The issue of finding the real, objective truth is critical here. But that’s the whole point. But this isn’t a clear, easily-knowable issue. It’s not like walking outside and seeing that the sky is blue and the grass is green. It’s something that requires a great deal of thought and research. It’s an issue where a large number of people have very different beliefs. They hold those beliefs to be objective - many just as strongly as you.

Am I denying that there’s an objective truth in this regard? Absolutely not. I believe it’s knowable. That’s why dialogue is important. You and a friend get together and discuss your views. Maybe you’ll learn from eachother. Maybe one of you will come closer to the truth.

Then what’s my problem? My problem is when one side criticizes the other side for not being open to change when they themselves aren’t open to change. That is hipocrisy. I doubt that you will not change anyone’s mind that way.

are you suggesting that we, as Catholics, are supposed to be “open” to the idea that this lifestyle itself is normal?

That is exactly what I mean.

Let me make myself very clear: I am very open to change, in nearly every aspect of my life, all the time. I’ve accepted that I’m always growing and learning. That includes going back on things that I thought were true and changing my viewpoint. If a certain viewpoint has compelling enough evidence, I’ll believe it.

If so, I can assure you that will not happen.

Why not? Don’t you understand how ridiculous it sounds from the outside? “I expect you to be open to changing your life, abandoning your partner, and believing in a religious system, much of which is based on faith. But I’ll never be open to changing *my *life. I just want to change yours. Don’t expect me to be open to change.” Do you realize how arrogant and pompous that sounds to us?

 

[StCsDavid]

Err… “Heart closed”?

There is one common theme with certian Catholics on this forum: If a person seems to be unlikely to agree with what the Church says on something, their “heart is closed.” That is, they’re not *really *open to the possibility of *actually *believing what you say. They’ve closed themselves off to the possibility of converting to Christianity, or believing a certain Christian doctrine.

My question to you, however, is simple: Are you willing to open yourself to the possibilty of converting *away *from Christianity - or *not *believing in that certain Christian doctrine?

If you are *not *willing to honestly open yourself up to that possibilty when attempting to convert someone, then you have no right to attempt to do so. The Golden Rule goes both ways. If your heart is not open to believing the other person, you had better not criticize them for thier heart not being open to believing you.

However, let me say this. It’s normal and honest to say that you’re not willing to open yourself up to converting away from Christianity. That’s fine. You can still have a dialogue with your non-religious friend. But don’t make it your goal to convert him. Don’t say his “heart is closed” - your heart and mind is just as closed to believing what he has to say.

First, I would never tell someone that their heart is closed. It has more to do with recognizing that reality and being Christ for that person in whatever way I can. Peppering someone with “thou shalt’s” is sometimes more counter productive even if you are proclaiming the truth. I try to meet people where they are.

Second, I’m open to hearing anyone’s opinion; however if they have no basis for their belief, why should I take their personal preference over the word of God, the sacred tradition of the Church, and the teachings of the only Church Christ gave to humanity? If I have a closed heart because I refuse to engage in an exercise of moral relativism, then I suppose I’m guilty as charged. Truth is not a wishy washy thing. The sun rises in the east. Do I have a closed heart simply because I refuse to be open to another person’s conviction that the sun rises in the west?

 

[blessedtoo]

I’m sorry to hear that. In my opinion, you can still be open to dialogue, but not be open to conversion. They’re not mutually exclusive. Representation of your ideas is one thing; attempting to have someone else believe them is something completely different (Prosyletizing?).

Agreed! I wholeheartedly support dialogue which is why I continue to frequent the threads on this issue (because, trust me, it’s wearying!).

I change every day. Am I “closer” to becoming a Christian? No. Am I closer to God/The Truth? I think so.

That’s wonderful news! Those who seek will find!

The issue of finding the real, objective truth is critical here. But that’s the whole point. But this isn’t a clear, easily-knowable issue. It’s not like walking outside and seeing that the sky is blue and the grass is green. It’s something that requires a great deal of thought and research. It’s an issue where a large number of people have very different beliefs. They hold those beliefs to be objective - many just as strongly as you.

I understand how and why you believe this issue is unclear. Let me quote from C.S. Lewis:

“When a man is getting better he understands more and more clearly the evil that is still left in him. When a man is getting worse he understands his own badness less and less. A moderately bad man knows he is not very good: a thoroughly bad man thinks he is all right. This is common sense, really. You understand sleep when you are awake, now while sleeping. You can see mistakes in arithmatic when your mind is working properly: while you are making them you cannot see them. You can understand the nature of drunkenness when you are sober, not when you are drunk. Good people know about both good and evil :bad people do not know about either.”
amazon.com/Mere-Christianity-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652926/sr=1-2/qid=1171300222/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-5522025-3055128?ie=UTF8&s=books

Please understand that I am not using this quote to make the charge that homosexuals are evil. But Lewis makes the obvious point that when we are deeply invested in our own misguided activity, we are somewhat blinded to any alternative path. There is a very clear answer to this issue and it has been supported and rewarded by both the government and religious institutions for thousands of years. New ideas that have sprung up in the last 30 years can not blur the truth as much as you seem to believe.

Then what’s my problem? My problem is when one side criticizes the other side for not being open to change when they themselves aren’t open to change. That is hipocrisy. I doubt that you will not change anyone’s mind that way.

Criticism of ideas is healthy. The problem with the homosexual activists is that when their concepts are criticized, they believe they themselves as persons are being attacked. This is not the case. And hipocrisy does not apply in this case for one side is true and the other is not.

Why not? Don’t you understand how ridiculous it sounds from the outside? “I expect you to be open to changing your life, abandoning your partner, and believing in a religious system, much of which is based on faith. But I’ll never be open to changing my life. I just want to change yours. Don’t expect me to be open to change.” Do you realize how arrogant and pompous that sounds to us?

If we actually presented it in the way you’ve described, then yes, it would sound arrogant. But the appropriate approach for any Christian who wishes to engage in dialogue is to present the truth based on natural law, science, biology, benefits to society and the spiritual good of the individual. It is not up to me, or any other Christian to “expect” you to do anything. If you are seriously seeking answers and keeping your heart and mind open, whatever changes you make will be your own choice.

 

[Suppression]

This is my first opportunity to respond to the many posts. First, thanks for the replies. There are certainly a lot of things being brought up. First off let me say that my friend is catholic. This is something along the lines of what we have been talking about. In general I avoid the homosexuality aspect of Catholicism because I feel that right now it is less important than trying to be someone who can tell him about his faith. He had a situation recently that scared him to the bone. What it was doesn’t matter. He told me that he saw that experience as God calling him back to his faith. That is why I tried to suggest he start going to church and go before the Lord in adoration hours. He did go to church a couple times and once to adoration. He said it brought him a sense of calm and it touched him emotionally greatly. I just wanted to help foster that feeling. Like myself in the past I fear he has done what many of us have done at one point or another: go to the Lord when in need and then stop once we feel the need has past. I don’t think it would be right for me to bring up the homosexuality part of it right now. He doesn’t agree with the churches position on masturbation or pornography. I have decided that right now if he is open to talking about the Church in general that is where I may be of some help. I am just trying to encourage him to attend mass. The reason I wonder about pornography, masturbation, and homosexual actions is I want to encourage him to receive communion but I don’t know I think he may be in a state of mortal sin. I tend to not think his actions are mortal but venial because he is not operation with full knowledge. He honestly believes there is nothing wrong. If he does not have full knowledge then it can’t be a mortal sin right? Objectively it is a mortal sin but in this case I don’t think it is. But then who am I to say.

 

[baltobetsy]

If your friend has been away from the Church for some time, he will need to go to Confession before he receives Holy Communion, regardless of the sexuality issues. Do you know a priest who will be truthful yet gentle? Could you both go to Confession the same day sometime before you encourage him to go to Mass? Let the priest deal with the mortal/venial conscience issues.

Betsy

 

[Kevin42]

This is my first opportunity to respond to the many posts. First, thanks for the replies. There are certainly a lot of things being brought up. First off let me say that my friend is catholic. This is something along the lines of what we have been talking about. In general I avoid the homosexuality aspect of Catholicism because I feel that right now it is less important than trying to be someone who can tell him about his faith. He had a situation recently that scared him to the bone. What it was doesn’t matter. He told me that he saw that experience as God calling him back to his faith. That is why I tried to suggest he start going to church and go before the Lord in adoration hours. He did go to church a couple times and once to adoration. He said it brought him a sense of calm and it touched him emotionally greatly. I just wanted to help foster that feeling. Like myself in the past I fear he has done what many of us have done at one point or another: go to the Lord when in need and then stop once we feel the need has past. I don’t think it would be right for me to bring up the homosexuality part of it right now. He doesn’t agree with the churches position on masturbation or pornography. I have decided that right now if he is open to talking about the Church in general that is where I may be of some help. I am just trying to encourage him to attend mass. The reason I wonder about pornography, masturbation, and homosexual actions is I want to encourage him to receive communion but I don’t know I think he may be in a state of mortal sin. I tend to not think his actions are mortal but venial because he is not operation with full knowledge. He honestly believes there is nothing wrong. If he does not have full knowledge then it can’t be a mortal sin right? Objectively it is a mortal sin but in this case I don’t think it is. But then who am I to say.

Do not encourage him to receive communion. If you really want to help him love God, do not encourage him to engage in sinful actions. First, you know that it is a sin, and secondly it will make it harder for him to take you seriously when you preach against sinning in other instances.

Besides that though, it sounds like you are on the right track with him (at least in my opinion). He’s clearly not open to hear why certain things are a sin, so don’t turn this into beating a dead horse. Just keep drawing him closer to Christ by what you are already doing (adoration, mass, confession, etc.). If he truly develops love for Christ, and it grows, he will eventually willingly give up sinful behavior out of love-which is the best motivation. Above all, patience and love must always be behind your actions.

It sounds like he has a really good friend in you. I will pray that the Holy Spirit guides you on when to speak and what to say. May Christ’s peace be with you always!

 

[Suppression]

I know he needs to go to confession. The issue is that he just moved to a new city and is too scared of a harsh preist berating him for his homosexuality. I am still looking for a good confessor in our home town right now too. My parish priest is way too flippant about confessions. Last time i went he cut me off and seemed not to care when i went into more detail that he wanted on my sins.