Chastity/ToB question

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graceandglory

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Got a question for you.
It’s of a chastity, dating, theology of the body nature. Any TOB geeks want to take a stab at it?

How do you respond to this question:
How far can you go in a dating relationship?
Is second base too far?

I have scoured Love and Responsibility and these forums, and Theology of the Body Explained, plus some other TOB resources, and I can’t find a definitive answer anywhere.

For reference, John Paul II references the “problem of the boundaries of sin,” beginning on pg 162 of Love and Responsibility. He states that ***“the dividing line is drawn by acts of will, by conscious and voluntary assent of the will.” *** He further says on p. 164, "the sin of weakness…succumbs only as and when it sees its good in pleasure itself – and that to such an extent that pleasure overshadows all else, the value of the person, and the value of a genuine unification of two persons in love."

I also realize that Theology of the Body isn’t all the Church has to say on sexual purity, and that there might be some other resources I’m not aware of.
Any suggestions for further help in addressing this question?

Thoughts?
 
Lets to up to the edge of a huge cliff, then, we will see how close to the edge we can get without falling off.

Remember, scripture tells us to avoid all appearance of evil, to flee impurity.

What would you do in front of her mom or his grandmother? What would you do in front of your Priest and the Virgin Mary? What do you want YOUR daughter to do with a man before marriage.

That is how far you can go.
 
kage_ar said:
Lets to up to the edge of a huge cliff, then, we will see how close to the edge we can get without falling off.

Remember, scripture tells us to avoid all appearance of evil, to flee impurity.

What would you do in front of her mom or his grandmother? What would you do in front of your Priest and the Virgin Mary? What do you want YOUR daughter to do with a man before marriage.

That is how far you can go.
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Good answer…

If you don’t feel comfortable doing it at church… then you shouldn’t be doing it at all…
 
Thanks! I use all those answers already. 😃 Now I’m looking for scriptural/theological principles. Not disagreeing, just looking for a deeper, more rock-solid response.

“To the pure all things are pure. To the corrupt and undefiled nothing is pure.” Titus 1:15
“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.” Mt 5:8

What makes an act impure?
 
Andrea22 said:
Good answer…

If you don’t feel comfortable doing it at church… then you shouldn’t be doing it at all…
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I dunno…not many married couples want to come together in the marital embrace in church…

I don’t think that applies here.
 
graceandglory said:
Thanks! I use all those answers already. 😃 Now I’m looking for scriptural/theological principles. Not disagreeing, just looking for a deeper, more rock-solid response.

“To the pure all things are pure. ** To the corrupt and undefiled nothing is pure.” ** Titus 1:15
“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.” Mt 5:8

What makes an act impure?
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BIG TYPO
(getting rusty on my scripture quoting…)

should be:

To the pure all things are pure, but to the corrupt and unbelieving nothing is pure; their very minds and consciences are corrupted.

(ain’t nothing wrong with being undefiled…) 😛
 
Andrea22 said:
Good answer…

If you don’t feel comfortable doing it at church… then you shouldn’t be doing it at all…
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I think ANYTHING that is of an intimate nature is going to fall in that category. Just because something is INTIMATE/private, doesn’t make it sin.

But, thanks for participating! 👍
 
This is where I draw my line:

if you’re doing it primarily because it feels good, it’s wrong.

if you’re doing it primarily as an act of love/affection, it’s probably fine.

if you’re doing it primarily as an act of love/affection but it feels good enough so as to be a temptation toward something that primarily feels good, then keep your eyes wide open and pay close attention and think about avoiding it. and keep your pants on.

and also, make sure you’re communicating well enough so that you’re not afraid to say “hey, look, we need to stop doing this particular sign of affection” or whatever. and make sure you’re always in control of yourself enough so that if you need to you can say “hey, look, we need to go to the mall” or somewhere public.

and if you’re dating, you better be dating someone who loves you enough to be okay with that. and you better be okay with him/her saying that too. physical affection should not be the foundation of your relationship. satan will try to push it there, so watch it.

if you’re hanging out with a group goofing off and all you can think of is physical affection, then it is time to sloowww down and spend your one-on-one time throwing the football around or something.

it’s good practice for marriage, too. you don’t want to go to work and spend the whole day thinking “ohh, maybe i’ll try this next time we have sex!” The rules are different when you’re married, but it isn’t an anything-goes sex fest. I mean, you have the rest of your life, too.

it’s complicated but it makes more sense than using a stopwatch when you hug. and it doesn’t take too long to get the hang of it. plus, people are different, and relationships change. what’s ok on a first date is different than what’s ok after a year. you will grow to trust each other. and grow to respect each other. and grow in purity.

the other day i leaned into the van to get something and when i stood up again I realized my rear had been right in my boyfriend’s face. And I thought you know what? I don’t feel weird about that anymore. I don’t go out of my way to stick it in his face, but I know that he isn’t going to ogle and dwell on thoughts of my naked body. It takes a looong time for me to trust men that way.

oh, the other thing is, when you screw up (you will), go to confession.
 
while not tob based, I just went through a chastity series with a life teen group. The underlying issue ended up being what is the purpose of dating (versus courtship). Dating is practicing serial monogamy for pleasure. When it stops feeling fun, and the warm fuzzies fade away, you move to the next partner. As such it pretty much teaches us exactly how not to live a married life.

Courtship is focused on finding a good spouse, someone who will help you grow closer to God. As such it is not pleasure driven so probably will not end up being nearly as physical.

How far can you go? Not sure - but it does not take much sometimes to cloud ones judgment, and make you want things to go further.
 
chain said:
Courtship is focused on finding a good spouse, someone who will help you grow closer to God.
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I used the term “dating” in a generic, “chaste dating” (ie courtship) sense.
 
graceandglory said:
But, thanks for participating! 👍
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I just wanted to point out that your remark comes across condescending… I would rather someone treat me like an adult and simply disagree with me and not a like 5 year old who needs pats on the head when they get it wrong…

My comment was more of a general comment… from the types of conversations one can have, to what to wear, and how to behave in a dating situation… I’ve seen married couples hug, hold hands, and kiss at church… nothing wrong with that… any more than that in a dating situation is a very slippery slope…
 
Andrea22 said:
I just wanted to point out that your remark comes across condescending… I would rather someone treat me like an adult and simply disagree with me and not a like 5 year old who needs pats on the head when they get it wrong…

My comment was more of a general comment… from the types of conversations one can have, to what to wear, and how to behave in a dating situation… I’ve seen married couples hug, hold hands, and kiss at church… nothing wrong with that… any more than that in a dating situation is a very slippery slope…
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Dear Andrea, I’m sorry you took it that way. From my first post in this thread, you can tell my tone is friendly, and looking for any discussion at all.
Got a question for you.
It’s of a chastity, dating, theology of the body nature. Any TOB geeks want to take a stab at it?
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I did ask for theological or scriptural resources, but any and all responses are good. Instead of ignoring each post, I am thankful for each and every post, for they all contribute to the discussion. All comments are good. Your post and my response just make it more clear what information I’m looking for.
 
graceandglory said:
Dear Andrea, I’m sorry you took it that way. From my first post in this thread, you can tell my tone is friendly, and looking for any discussion at all.
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I believe you mean well and are friendly… I’m not upset at you but one should have a little tact when posting so as not to offend… your comment was inadvertantly condescending and I wanted to make you aware of it in case you wanted to becareful with your posts in the future.
 
Andrea22 said:
I believe you mean well and are friendly… I’m not upset at you but one should have a little tact when posting so as not to offend… your comment was inadvertantly condescending and I wanted to make you aware of it in case you wanted to becareful with your posts in the future.
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Thank you for calling me tacky and condescending. That’s really what I wanted to wake up to this morning. Oh yeah, and for rolling your eyes at me yesterday…

Please don’t be so easily offended in the future. If you have something to say to me personally, please use the private messaging functioning. For now, I believe you just killed my thread.

🤷
 
You ask for scriptural references. For those of us converts from the evangelical world, this is a biggie. 😃

Remember, Scripture was written by practicing Jews. They wrote from the life they lived. No one in that time would have ever been alone with an unrelated female, when they were to be married, there would be no physical exchange before marriage - no hugging, no kissing, no touching. The authors of Scripture would never have though to spell out dating rules for a society as permissive as ours.

The verses you are using about purity are the closest that there are to “thou shalt not stick your tougue down your girlfriend’s throat” :o
 
In the baseball metaphor second base would be manual stimulation and fondling. :eek: Definitely too far to take it in Catholic dating. Stay with holding hands, maybe a peck on the cheek every now and then, anything beyond that is out of the question.
 
Holding hands, hugging, light kiss on the cheek/lips…anything else can lead to impure thoughts and actions, arise passions that can’t be controlled. Save all the good stuff for marriage.
 
I believe “second base”, which is fondling, is based on sexual (not necessarily erotic) desire. If a couple is not married, this type of sexual desire is sexual impurity, therefore is sinful and probably gravely sinful. Scripture is replete with references to sexual impurity being wrong.

Frankly, this sort of boundary checking, the “how far is too far” questions try to frame sin in a legalistic concept. This is not generally helpful and does not promote personal holiness. Rather we should focus on doing what we know is right, avoiding occasions of sin and exercising self control and self mastery. In short, we should focus on personal holiness.

In a relationship, if one truly loves the person they are dating, they would not imperil their immortal soul by being a stumbling block by leading or joining them in grave sin. If you really love the person you are dating, you will be chaste for the sake of their soul.
 
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