Chastity/ToB question

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Frankly, this sort of boundary checking, the “how far is too far” questions try to frame sin in a legalistic concept. This is not generally helpful and does not promote personal holiness. Rather we should focus on doing what we know is right, avoiding occasions of sin and exercising self control and self mastery. In short, we should focus on personal holiness.
Bingo!

My response to the OP’s question has been: “If you have to ask how far is too far, you have already gone too far.”

I don’t have an answer in terms of Scripture. But the real answer, whether it is from TOB, common sense, or an understanding of what Scripture calls us to is pretty much the same, and the answer (yes, I know it is Irish) is to answer the question with another question: Why, in all personal honesty, are you engaging in such behavior?

While that question is primarily oriented to the male part of the species, it is valid for both. What is the real, very bottom line of why you are engaging in such behavior? Until the person doing so can give a forthright and honest answer, quoteing a lot of Scripture is not going to get to the root of the problem, which is whether they are self-directed or other-directed. Are they seeking their own pleasure? Are they using pleasure to seek another response (and this primarily directed to the female)? Why are they engaging in behavior which has the express purpose and express result of arousing an explicit sexual response? And how is doing that going to draw either of them closer to Christ?
 
Bingo!

My response to the OP’s question has been: “If you have to ask how far is too far, you have already gone too far.”
As the original poster, I’m actually trying to ANSWER a question that was posed to me, as a TOB/chastity educator. I still don’t feel I have a good enough answer to give.
 
St. Thomas Aquinas from the Summa Theologica. I’ll let you scan it for the details but I’ve outlined a few important parts. Hope this helps.
Whether there can be mortal sin in touches and kisses?
Objection 1: It would seem that there is no mortal sin in touches and kisses. For the Apostle says (Eph. 5:3): “Fornication and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not so much as be namedamong you, as becometh saints,” then he adds: “Or obscenity” (which a gloss refers to "kissing and fondling"), “or foolish talking” (as “soft speeches”), “or scurrility” (which “fools call geniality—i.e. jocularity”), and afterwards he continues (Eph. 5:5): “For know ye this and understand that no fornicator, or unclean, or covetous person (which is the serving of idols), hath inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God,” thus making no further mention of obscenity, as neither of foolish talking or scurrility. Therefore these are not mortal sins.
**Objection 2: **Further, fornication is stated to be a mortal sin as being prejudicial to the goodof the future child’s begetting and upbringing. But these are not affected by kisses and touches or blandishments. Therefore there is no mortal sin in these.
Objection 3: Further, things that are mortal sins in themselves can never be good actions. Yet kisses, touches, and the like can be done sometimes without sin. Therefore they are not mortal sins in themselves. On the contrary, A lustful look is less than a touch, a caress or a kiss. But according to Mat. 5:28, “Whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her hath already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Much more therefore are lustful kisses and other like things mortal sins. Further, Cyprian says (Ad Pompon, de Virgin., Ep. lxii), “By their very intercourse, their blandishments, their converse, their embraces, those who are associated in a sleep that knows neither honor nor shame, acknowledge their disgrace and crime.” Therefore by doing these things a man is guilty of a crime, that is, of mortal sin.
I answer that, A thing is said to be a mortal works. /sin in two ways. First, by reason of its species, and in this way a kiss, caress, or touch does not, of its very nature, imply a mortal sin, for it is possible to do such things without lustful pleasure, either as being the custom of one’s country, or on account of some obligation or reasonable cause. Secondly, a thing is said to be a mortal sin by reason of its cause: thus he who gives an alms, in order to lead someone into heresy, sins mortally on account of his corrupt intention. Now it has been stated above (FS, Q[74], A[8]), that it is a mortal sin not only to consent to the act, but also to the delectation of a mortal sin. Wherefore since fornication is a mortal sin, and much more so the other kinds of lust, it follows that in such like sins not only consent to the act but also consent to the pleasure is a mortal sin. Consequently, when these kisses and caresses are done for this delectation, it follows that they are mortal sins, and only in this way are they said to be lustful. Therefore in so far as they are lustful, they are mortal sins.
Reply to Objection 1:
The Apostle makes no further mention of these three because they are not sinful except as directed to those that he had mentioned before.
Reply to Objection 2: Although kisses and touches do not by their very nature hinder the good of the human offspring, they proceed from lust, which is the source of this hindrance: and on this account they are mortally sinful.
Reply to Objection 3: This argument proves that such things are not mortal sins in their species.
-Anything that brings about lust is a sin by it’s cause.
-A sin that is both wrong in it’s act and it’s cause (such as that which would bring about pleasure) is all the more grievous.
-Kissing and touching, insofar as they are valuable to unity and affection, and not sensual pleasure, are permitted (Kissing on the lips, arm around the waist; typically whatever would be permitted in a public place - you probably wouldn’t make-out on a park bench)

God Bless. 🙂
 
St. Thomas Aquinas from the Summa Theologica. I’ll let you scan it for the details but I’ve outlined a few important parts. Hope this helps.

-Anything that brings about lust is a sin by it’s cause.
-A sin that is both wrong in it’s act and it’s cause (such as that which would bring about pleasure) is all the more grievous.
-Kissing and touching, insofar as they are valuable to unity and affection, and not sensual pleasure, are permitted (Kissing on the lips, arm around the waist; typically whatever would be permitted in a public place - you probably wouldn’t make-out on a park bench)

God Bless. 🙂
:ehh: I can see that kissing on the lips and some parts of the lower arm being okay, but I do not see how kissing around the waist could be considered something acceptable in public or consistent with chaste behavior.
 
:ehh: I can see that kissing on the lips and some parts of the lower arm being okay, but I do not see how kissing around the waist could be considered something acceptable in public or consistent with chaste behavior.
Haha no no. Lips refers to the kissing part. Arm around the waist refers to the touching part. I agree that kissing around the waist would be a tad spicy for public or pre-marital circumstances. 😃
 
Haha no no. Lips refers to the kissing part. Arm around the waist refers to the touching part. I agree that kissing around the waist would be a tad spicy for public or pre-marital circumstances. 😃
😊 Sorry, my mistake. (Perhaps if you had put “or” instead of a comma, I would have understood you better.) My apologies. :o
 
St. Thomas Aquinas from the Summa Theologica. I’ll let you scan it for the details but I’ve outlined a few important parts. Hope this helps.

-Anything that brings about lust is a sin by it’s cause.
-A sin that is both wrong in it’s act and it’s cause (such as that which would bring about pleasure) is all the more grievous.
-Kissing and touching, insofar as they are valuable to unity and affection, and not sensual pleasure, are permitted (Kissing on the lips, arm around the waist; typically whatever would be permitted in a public place - you probably wouldn’t make-out on a park bench)

God Bless. 🙂
Thank you Primox!!!
This is more along the lines of what I was looking for.
I also found references to St. Thomas Aquinas, and have been reading his Summa for the first time online in the last couple days.

The book Christian Courtship in an Oversexed World by Fr. Thomas Morrow references both Pope John Paul II’s Love and Responsibility and St. Thomas Aquinas’s Summa. I just picked it up yesterday online, after reading much of it online at googlebooks.

Thank you for taking your time to post in my thread.
 
Thank you Primox!!!
This is more along the lines of what I was looking for.
I also found references to St. Thomas Aquinas, and have been reading his Summa for the first time online in the last couple days.

The book Christian Courtship in an Oversexed World by Fr. Thomas Morrow references both Pope John Paul II’s Love and Responsibility and St. Thomas Aquinas’s Summa. I just picked it up yesterday online, after reading much of it online at googlebooks.

Thank you for taking your time to post in my thread.
You’re welcome. Awesome you got yourself a copy of the Summa - It’ll answer a good portion of the questions you have, even ones you never thought to ask! I might like to take a look at Fr. Morrow’s book, also - I’ve heard good things.

God Bless, graceandglory
 
As the original poster, I’m actually trying to ANSWER a question that was posed to me, as a TOB/chastity educator. I still don’t feel I have a good enough answer to give.
Sorry; I was perhaps too indirect. Chapter, line and verse is best delivered by someone like Aquinas. I was a couple of layers removed from that. My response perhaps makes more sense, once the rules are laid out, as Aquinas does, but I had lost a bit of the point of your OP after reading other responses. Good luck!
 
You’re welcome. Awesome you got yourself a copy of the Summa - It’ll answer a good portion of the questions you have, even ones you never thought to ask! I might like to take a look at Fr. Morrow’s book, also - I’ve heard good things.

God Bless, graceandglory
YES!
Fr. Morrow’s book, Christian Courtship in an Oversexed World was excellent in answering this question!!!
Also, it comes up in Christopher West’s, Good News About Sex and Marriage, (Answering your honest questions about Catholic sexual teaching).

Both of these sources reference the Theology of the Body and Pope John Paul II’s Love and Responsibility, which was heavily influenced by St. Thomas Aquinas.

👍
 
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