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Timothy_486
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As long as the indians converted through their own free will and not by force, I see no problems
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seekerz
Guest
Points well taken.
Mine is that we would do well to avoid discussing the clearly complicated matters that happened 500 yrs ago and leave that to the affected people themselves. That way, we can praise God for Christianity reaching the ends of the earth regardless of what else came at the same time.
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mgrobertson79
Guest
It’s a real shame the Church gets criticized here for something good it did some 500+ years ago. It brought the light and truth of Jesus Christ to a brutal and otherwise heathen society. This seems like the protestants using the inquisition(which they are or seem to be totally ignorant of) against the Church today.
No one today can undo what has been done and should not be made to feel as if they have some debt to repay. This goes for American slavery as well. The only thing we can control today is our own actions. No debt should be repaid because no debt is owed. No apology should be given in the case of the Holy Father because no apology is due.
No one today can undo what has been done and should not be made to feel as if they have some debt to repay. This goes for American slavery as well. The only thing we can control today is our own actions. No debt should be repaid because no debt is owed. No apology should be given in the case of the Holy Father because no apology is due.
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Ani_Ibi
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That’s what he said he would do.
He is a planner. His plans have not come to fruition yet. When they do, things will get interesting.
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
You are avoiding the question put to you and you are off topic. So let’s cut to the chase, what religion do you want us to convert to?
What does this mean please?
I am wondering something. Can you be any less specific than you have been here? When was he right? What has he done that you don’t like?
This is self-contradictory. How can someone who is using the cover of the Church for gold and glory not be an enemy of the Church?
I gather you may well be having trouble adding anything substantive to this discussion and so are resorting to evasion and outright off-topic remarks.
Here is your chance to write his speech for him. Please tell us what the Pope should have said. And please provide links.
You don’t sound sorry. If you don’t find a lot to be reverend about, perhaps this isn’t for you. People who are sorry both apologize and change their ways.
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Let’s cut through all the blah-blah-woof-woof. If we were going to convert, what do you suggest we convert to?
So wanting to know.
Saying so does not make it so. Please provide a synopsis of your point, quotes from authorities, and links to those quotes. If you can’t, then you concede the point you are attempting to make. It’s just unfounded opinion.
Who is ‘we’? And the legacy of our Church is… (drum roll) … tah-dah! What?
And you know this how?
Down there?
Where exactly? Are these the gold mines of Antarctica or the gold mines of … hhhhmmm … let me see … who does this remind me of?
People who are sorry normally apologize and make amends. They do not keep on singlemindedly promoting their anti-Catholic propagandist agenda. But perhaps yours is a new kind of 21st Century post-modern apology. Hey! If sew, then totally grewvy, far ewt, fly, and kewl, dude.
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Ani_Ibi
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seekerz
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Hey! If sew, then totally grewvy, far ewt, fly, and kewl, dude.
Would you sue for copyright if I added my bit?:
(Sorry, but I cannot insert the word ‘like’ as many times as is fashionable these days.)
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Chavez is an intelligent, cunning man who has garnered a lot of intelligent, cunning friends. He has enormous power and enormous ambitions. His goal is world domination. He will use the banner of social justice which we know is communism – something that is malevolently disposed toward the Real Presence.
The confrontation between the Pope and Chavez is going to come sooner or later. The Pope is a careful planner. He has a sense of timing like any general in a war. This war is a spiritual war. May God bless and guide our Pope.
And yes I have made claims without links. I have links. I will post them when I sense that they will be of value. I too have a sense of timing.
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
Hi Rodrigo. I am up here in Canada. The Jesuits were here too among the Algonquin. Do you feel that God was here before the Europeans came? Searching for His lost sheep? Preparing the way for the preaching of the Gospel?
I totally believe this. I have been to Manitoulin Island. That is the Island of Manitou, the Creator. On that Island you will see shrines without number created by those who knew God in their hearts and then had visions – usually of Our Lady – and then when they heard the Gospel, fell to their knees in instant recognition of the Truth.
It is an incredibly moving experience.
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
seekerz said:
Nah. As long as you give me a ref, I’m happy. Sometimes though people haven’t given me my ref. Then I’m not happy. But surely your bit has its own copyright?
seekerz said:
Like, I have an internet account in a ‘like’ bank. Dewn’tchanew?
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Ani_Ibi
Guest
:nope: The truth must be spoken. There are things which happened which we must help heal.
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sonja
Guest
It is an unfortunate historical fact that there was a genocide in the Americas following the European arrival in the 1400s. It is also an unfortunate series of facts that slavery, disease, death, exploitation, extortion, greed, theft, and a whole host of sins followed as well. Not to say that prior to the arrival of the colonial powers that there was a situtation like Eden… nor that all the works of the colonials were evil. But the genocide – and the cultural whitewash that accompanied it – happened with the knowledge and support of the European powers. And many of them arrived with the “blessing and support of their Catholic majesties of Spain.” At the time, the Church was considered one of the royal powers – commanding armies, and with strong influence over thrones (yes, it is part of the historical record, please visit your local library. Any one will do.)
Chavez’s demand, although arrogantly worded, is not significantly different from other, earlier calls made by other Latin American priests and bishops who have referred to the bible as a “yoke and a burden” and who have called the Church an “oppressor” for what they see as its role in failing to act to correct the great imbalances present in a society where there are gigantic gaps between rich and poor. It’s linked to the social justice movement, which led to the death of Archbishop Romero -and others…
Now, as to the question of “why bother with something that happened 500+ years ago”…
Pope John Paul’s 1994 Apostolic Letter ‘Tertio millennio adveniente’:
“Hence it is appropriate that as the second millennium of Christianity draws to a close the Church should become ever more fully conscious of the sinfulness of her children, recalling all those times in history when they departed from the spirit of Christ and His Gospel and, instead of offering to the world the witness of a life inspired by the values of her faith, indulged in ways of thinking and acting which were truly forms of counter-witness and scandal. Although she is holy because of her incorporation into Christ, the Church does not tire of doing penance. Before God and man, she always acknowledges as her own her sinful sons and daughters.”
John Paul II wrote in “Tertio millennio adveniente” (2000): Yet the consideration of mitigating factors does not exonerate the Church from the obligation to express profound regret for the weaknesses of so many of her sons and daughters who sullied her face, preventing her from fully mirroring the image of her crucified Lord, the supreme witness of patient love and of humble meekness. From these painful moments of the past a lesson can be drawn for the future, leading all Christians to adhere fully to the sublime principle stated by the Council: “The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it wins over the mind with both gentleness and power”.(19)
Chavez’s demand, although arrogantly worded, is not significantly different from other, earlier calls made by other Latin American priests and bishops who have referred to the bible as a “yoke and a burden” and who have called the Church an “oppressor” for what they see as its role in failing to act to correct the great imbalances present in a society where there are gigantic gaps between rich and poor. It’s linked to the social justice movement, which led to the death of Archbishop Romero -and others…
Now, as to the question of “why bother with something that happened 500+ years ago”…
Pope John Paul’s 1994 Apostolic Letter ‘Tertio millennio adveniente’:
“Hence it is appropriate that as the second millennium of Christianity draws to a close the Church should become ever more fully conscious of the sinfulness of her children, recalling all those times in history when they departed from the spirit of Christ and His Gospel and, instead of offering to the world the witness of a life inspired by the values of her faith, indulged in ways of thinking and acting which were truly forms of counter-witness and scandal. Although she is holy because of her incorporation into Christ, the Church does not tire of doing penance. Before God and man, she always acknowledges as her own her sinful sons and daughters.”
John Paul II wrote in “Tertio millennio adveniente” (2000): Yet the consideration of mitigating factors does not exonerate the Church from the obligation to express profound regret for the weaknesses of so many of her sons and daughters who sullied her face, preventing her from fully mirroring the image of her crucified Lord, the supreme witness of patient love and of humble meekness. From these painful moments of the past a lesson can be drawn for the future, leading all Christians to adhere fully to the sublime principle stated by the Council: “The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it wins over the mind with both gentleness and power”.(19)
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Ani_Ibi
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OK. Some suggestions:
- Let us agree to put aside both malice and defensiveness.
- Some things happened to our First Nations brothers and sisters which were destructive to their societies.
- Doesn’t matter that we personally are not responsible for those things. Doesn’t matter even that our Church is not responsible for those things.
- What matters is that silence on those matters serves to further the marginalization of our First Nations kindred.
- We have much to learn from our First Nations kindred, including gratitude for our new homes, relief for finding shelter from persecution in lands from whence we came. And much about their love of God and their search for God.
- If we do not conduct ourselves intelligently, charitably, and responsibly toward our First Nations kindred, then we are handing the likes of Chavez the keys to the Americas. And Chavez is not like Castro. Nor is he like Ortega. He is far more cunning than anything we have seen before this side of the Atlantic.
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seekerz
Guest
I understand you, but for example, there’s this small group of aboriginal people I know who take objection to almost everything that comes from a history book (regarding them) because they feel they’ve been wrongfully portrayed as savages. Seems like modern archeology backs up some of their claims too.
They probably were no more violent than any other people of the world at that time. While most of them are Christians (some of those Catholic), they get really passionate about outsiders discussing their history and I tend to respect that.
Much of history is written from the viewpoint of the writer’s culture. Sometimes we should just let sleeping dogs lie because even though they’re hundreds of years old, some still bite hard enough to hurt.
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Timothy_486
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Tinfoil hats, anyone?
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Ani_Ibi
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They have been portrayed as savages.
I don’t know about archeology, but the writings of the Jesuits back up their claims.
Indeed. They just did not have plagues, steel, ships, and guns. While the European colonizers did.
Much of history written by some of the colonizers are just plain misrepresentation.
Nah. The sleeping dog is actually a sleeping giant which we woke up a long time ago.
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mgrobertson79
Guest
None to put aside, unless it is in the hearts of those who would demand “reparations”
Agreed, though not a modern problem, should not be a modern issue.
Actually responsibility does matter. How can we be held responsible for something that people did many years ago. The vast majority, other than my Cherokee side, of my ancestors didn’t come here until the late 1800’s. I am 1/8th Cherokee by blood. I hold no hard feelings against the white man, of which I seem to be 7/8ths mixed between Czechoslovakia and Ireland.
No the Church is not responsible and thus owes no apologies.
Let them write their story on paper. Build and contribute to a museum. How can they be marginalized, we owe them nothing. If they want to contribute to the world, they need to step up and do so, but forget the notion that others have put in their heads that they are owed something.
Actually we learned most of this from the Church. And we owe them nothing of the sort. We faced persecution from them when we arrived. It seemed they hated us from day 1. The White man was persecuted by the natives as they continued west. Apparently the natives knew as little about the land as the “invaders” did. They didn’t love our God, they were pagans and worshiped the earth and the elements. They didn’t search for God, the Christian missionaries forced them to convert. They resented this at first, but eventually became resigned to it and that is the way they have lived since.
You are correct. I spit in the face of men like Chavez. He is trash and not really worth the effort discussing.
http://www.geocities.com/sunsetstri...trip/stadium/7075/cherokee/cpicsModern/yi.gif do-hi-yi This is Tsalgi(Cherokee) for Peace
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Ani_Ibi
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Reparations for what? The Residential schools?
Justice and peace is a modern issue.
I did not say that we should be held accountable for things we did not do.
Holding hard feelings and working to end the marginalization of First Nations, heal the damage caused by the Residential schools, and honour the land claims are two separate things.
Mmmm. I will find you a link about what the Church actually said way back then. I have to run now though and won’t be back until evening.
This does not account for the Residential schools. Neither does it account for the reneguing on the land treaties.
Wow, please give some references for his misinformation.
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seekerz
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I have to say that I find your opinion patently uncharitable though of course you have a right to it.
First of all you were not present in those times and can only see events through the eyes of historians (most likely of your culture).
Secondly, if you had been in the place of people who saw strangers come and just settle on their land, maybe you would have acted that way too. People the world over fought for centuries for land and used the most horrific and atrocious tactics - indeed some still do.
Thirdly, just as a point of interest, reparation is not a modern idea drawn up by the PC crowd. Actually, after the Haitian slaves had the audacity to grab hold of their own freedom rather than wait politely for it be handed to him in some magnanimous gesture, the country was forced to repay France 150 million francs for the ‘financial losses’ incurred in the revolution. The last of that sum (reportedly equivalent to billions today) was paid as late as 1947.
The first democratically elected leader of Haiti (a product of internationally monitored free and fair elections) who raised his voice to demand that that sum be repaid was subsequently summarily removed in a totally unique and unheard of manner during an operation involving our troops.
The reparation boot only hurts when it’s on the foot of the former oppressors.
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