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How about Unitarian Christians who reject the Trinity?
Nope.

Part of the validity of the Sacrament is that the person baptizing have the intention of baptizing into Christ AS CHRSTIANS UNDERSTAND it. So, a Hindu can perform a valid baptism (say, of an infant in desperate danger of death) if he intends to honor the faith that child is born into.

But since Unitarians actively reject the divinity of Christ, and presumably of the Holy Spirit, even if they recite the formula with a Unitarian understanding, they’re not intending to baptize a person as a Christian.

Now, as non-Christians, if they were in the same position as that Hindu, and if they subordinated their own belief to the intent of Christian baptism, not claiming it as a Unitarian baptism, then I suppose it would be valid. Good question for AAA.
 
Sola,

I am still somewhat baffled by your take on these reformers. Many of the areas of concern you had expressed in Catholics are very much in these Protestants. Calvin was a horrible man on an individual level. Do you believe a man can change the intepretation of Gods word and yet be one that is as horrific as Calvin. I understand men fail as the Popes have many times, as we all know; however, Calvin is an equal to the worst of our Popes. How do you reconcile this issue?
First, I do not look at the individual characteristics of any Pope as a source of rebuke of the RCC. Nor would I say any man is capable of personal Godly perfection while we walk in the flesh so to speak.

However, the rumors of Calvin are far overblown. The only personal controversy with regard to Calvin was the execution of Servetus.

First, Servetus was a man who was tried in absentia by the Catholic French inquisition and sentenced to death (April 1554). He was branded a heretic for denying the Trinity. He also denied the eternal existence of Christ.

He wrote Calvin a series of letters, to which Calvin responded:

Calvin wrote to Servetus, “I neither hate you nor despise you; nor do I wish to persecute you; but I would be as hard as iron when I behold you insulting sound doctrine with so great audacity.”

Finally Calvin ended their correspondence and refused to grant Servetus the promise of safe passage in Geneva (indeed Calvin openly stated if Servetus entered Geneva he would find the same end as the Catholics had prepared for him). Sadly, for Servetus, he came to Geneva anyway.

The city counsel of Geneva tried and convicted Servetus of heresy and sentenced him to burn at the stake. Ironically Calvin’s final plea was for leniency – or for at least for a less harsh execution. However, Calvin’s calls went unheeded and Servetus burned (Calvin held no political power). So to say Calvin was a “horrible man” is just not true.

Calvin had honest disagreements with many over doctrine, especially in the area of soteriology. However, Servitus was such a heretic that anywhere he went in Europe either the protestants or Catholics were going to kill him. Frankly it’s more reflective on that period in Christian history more than anything. The Catholics were burning people at the stake in mass back then. So I don’t think Servetus is a very fair critique of Calvin?

That being said – St. Francis was definitely a nicer guy … LOL!
 
What erudite or salient points did Justin make that leads you to think he knows what he is talking about?
It’s the equivalent to telling someone here that they have no clue why they became Catholic and left Protestantism. Whoever the darring one would be to say that here would be like the bear who stumbled upon a huge nest of angry bees.
 
I shot the guy an e-mail about 10 days ago, I have not heard back. I wanted to see where is is coming from.
 
Sounds like he had quite a revelation to me. that’s what happened to me several years ago.
And I am not discounting that. I just want to know what it is he sees or did not see. I asked you the same thing. I want to know what causes people to come and go in faith.
 
First, I do not look at the individual characteristics of any Pope as a source of rebuke of the RCC. Nor would I say any man is capable of personal Godly perfection while we walk in the flesh so to speak.

However, the rumors of Calvin are far overblown. The only personal controversy with regard to Calvin was the execution of Servetus.

First, Servetus was a man who was tried in absentia by the Catholic French inquisition and sentenced to death (April 1554). He was branded a heretic for denying the Trinity. He also denied the eternal existence of Christ.

He wrote Calvin a series of letters, to which Calvin responded:

Calvin wrote to Servetus, “I neither hate you nor despise you; nor do I wish to persecute you; but I would be as hard as iron when I behold you insulting sound doctrine with so great audacity.”

Finally Calvin ended their correspondence and refused to grant Servetus the promise of safe passage in Geneva (indeed Calvin openly stated if Servetus entered Geneva he would find the same end as the Catholics had prepared for him). Sadly, for Servetus, he came to Geneva anyway.

The city counsel of Geneva tried and convicted Servetus of heresy and sentenced him to burn at the stake. Ironically Calvin’s final plea was for leniency – or for at least for a less harsh execution. However, Calvin’s calls went unheeded and Servetus burned (Calvin held no political power). So to say Calvin was a “horrible man” is just not true.

Calvin had honest disagreements with many over doctrine, especially in the area of soteriology. However, Servitus was such a heretic that anywhere he went in Europe either the protestants or Catholics were going to kill him. Frankly it’s more reflective on that period in Christian history more than anything. The Catholics were burning people at the stake in mass back then. So I don’t think Servetus is a very fair critique of Calvin?

That being said – St. Francis was definitely a nicer guy … LOL!
I heard this story on a seminar CD last night. It was given by Ken Hensley, a Protestant minister who converted to Catholicism.

Servetus was burned at the stake by order of the city council, Calvin tried to intervene and requested a beheading (it was consider more humane in those days).

Ken also used references from ‘atheist’ authors. who Ken said, made many unfounded accusations against Calvin.

The talk on Calvin appeared to be honest to show Catholics how Calvinists are truly a ‘separated’ brethren to the Catholic Church. By that I mean, it was not derogatory against Calvin so much as it explained the history and politics that caused Calvin to support and become a part of the reformation. It did provide a lot of information on the history of Calvin himself.

At the end it primarily addressed the mindset behind sola scriptura so Catholics could understand how Protestants approach this teaching, in hopes Catholics could be charitable in their discussions with Calvinists. It also provided the explanation why sola scriptura was flawed in the eyes of the Church as Catholics view the subject.

I think it would be worth anyone’s time to listen to this 3 CD set, John Calvin - Inside the Protestant Mind. I’ve already listened to his CDs, Luther - The Rest of the Story, but that’s been awhile ago so they’re on the list of my listening material during my drives.

I’m attending night classes about 65 miles away from where I live, so I’m listening to as much as I can get my hands on for the drives. Between a friend of mine and myself, I have LOTS to listen too.
 
Sounds like he had quite a revelation to me. that’s what happened to me several years ago.
I have a very hard time with someone who claims he has and wants a closer walk with the Lord and then spews poison and hatred. I’m dubious indeed of someone who only sees negatives . in somethimg they disagree with. You should really watch the journey home about converts to Catholicism-I’ve never seen one of them try to inject as much venom as nyou do into a conversation or statement. If you think your belligerent statements are going to win people to your side or bring people to Christ you are sadly mistaken.Such unbridled hatred does nothing but make you a person to be pitied.I feel sadness for anyone so eaten up that they dislike themselves so much that they are constantly unhappy. Peace be upon your soul.
 
I have a very hard time with someone who claims he has and wants a closer walk with the Lord and then spews poison and hatred. I’m dubious indeed of someone who only sees negatives . in somethimg they disagree with. You should really watch the journey home about converts to Catholicism-I’ve never seen one of them try to inject as much venom as nyou do into a conversation or statement. If you think your belligerent statements are going to win people to your side or bring people to Christ you are sadly mistaken.Such unbridled hatred does nothing but make you a person to be pitied.I feel sadness for anyone so eaten up that they dislike themselves so much that they are constantly unhappy. Peace be upon your soul.
“Noboby ever left the Catholic Church because they were smart.” - The Shadow Priest.
 
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