check out this anti catholic blog

[TriuneUnity]

However, we might assume a one or two month old infant cannot possibly form the requisite intellectual faculties to believe in something (they’re still getting used to sight and hearing, let alone thought – I know my brother & his wife just had a beautiful baby girl).

Congrats on the niece.

Faith is not an intellectual property; it is a supernatural gift. It has an effect on the intellect, for sure but is not dependent upon it.

 

[MrS]

Congrats on the niece.

Faith is not an intellectual property; it is a supernatural gift. It has an effect on the intellect, for sure but is not dependent upon it.

Wow, that sounds Catholic!!

You are correct. I know some will point to “… repent and be baptized…” as meaning you must repent (be old enough to do so) first.

However, the Jewish idioms are commonplace. The understanding is this: “… repent (those who can) and be baptized…”

similarly… “… those who do not work (and can work) will not be fed…”

In both cases we receive a gift… but if we can, we should first “merit” that gift.

.So, TriuneUnity… when are you crossing the Tiber??

 

[ralphinal]

I may be way out on a limb with this one, but I bet it would be along these lines.

The person would be a member of the Church, as that is part of what Baptism does.

He would therefore be a part of the body of Christ, a reluctant one, but one none the less.

He would have access to the graces from baptism, and the gifts, but would refuse them.

According to Catholic doctrine, and I would doubt that any other faith that sees baptism in a similar way would argue much, baptism leaves a mark on you soul that is for your greater punishment in hell, should you not make it to heaven.

The question that I am stuck on is if any of his sins up until that point are washed away. I am inclined to say yes and no. The Original sin is, but as repentance is part of the actual sin, no.

 

[MrS]

I make it to heaven.

The question that I am stuck on is if any of his sins up until that point are washed away. I am inclined to say yes and no. The Original sin is, but as repentance is part of the actual sin, no.

Baptism is true regeneration. It provides for the remission of sin (all sins) and the temporal punishment due them. It is not a case of white snow on a dung heap… it is a new creation… fully.

Thus if we could really choose… we might want to be baptised on our death bed. But the risk is not worth it.

The good thief was told he would be in paradise that day… all his sins and the temporal punishment due them were washed away.

.

 

[Sir_Knight]

No one has the power to condemn to hell, except God.

Just a point of clarification, doesn’t 1 Timothy 1:20 teach that our church leaders have the authority “deliver to Satan” our souls?

 

[ralphinal]

Baptism is true regeneration. It provides for the remission of sin (all sins) and the temporal punishment due them. It is not a case of white snow on a dung heap… it is a new creation… fully.

Thus if we could really choose… we might want to be baptised on our death bed. But the risk is not worth it.

The good thief was told he would be in paradise that day… all his sins and the temporal punishment due them were washed away.

.

Understood. THe issue that we are discussing is if the person has no intention of being Christian. We know that faking a confession is a serious mortal sin. Receiving communion unworthily is a big no-no. These we see spelled out. Confirmation is a little different. The person may have doubts or not fully comprehend, but special graces are given to them so that they may grow in the faith. I guess Baptism would be the same.

So, if an adult is baptised with absolutely no desire to end his sinful life, those preceeding sins are gone?

 

[ralphinal]

Just a point of clarification, doesn’t 1 Timothy 1:20 teach that our church leaders have the authority “deliver to Satan” our souls?

I am not sure that verse means it was a permanant thing. Paul may have removed and special prayers for protection for them from his daily prayers or even banned them from the Church to teach them how bad it can be.

 

[Reformed]

Thank you. I had put this person on my ignore list, and wasn’t going to participate further. When I received an email that you had posted, I came out of interest to read it.

I wonder how these people eventually feel when they find out the truth about what they’ve been doing and what they’ve been opposing.

I love Scott Hahn. Before becoming a Catholic, he had convinced some people to leave the Catholic Church. He says that now, he’s spending his life making up for that mistake.

I am familar with Scott Hahn and other converts from Protestantism. It seems you put these pastors who leave Protestantism on an elevated platform to look up to. I think Scripture reveals something quite different.

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God - 1 Cor 1
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, [2] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being [3] might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him [4] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect

 

[Reformed]

If only you would speak in truth, I would applaud you from the rooftops. As it is, you’re simply boring me with your arrogance and falsehoods.

I believe I have asked you before, how are you trying to determine truth? Do you look to men with religious titles, or do you look to God’s Word? The Word of God is sufficient for the Christian. The person and work of Christ is sufficient.

John 10:35
If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken

Acts 17:11
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I am familar with Scott Hahn and other converts from Protestantism. It seems you put these pastors who leave Protestantism on an elevated platform to look up to. I think Scripture reveals something quite different.

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God - 1 Cor 1
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, [2] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being [3] might boast in the presence of God. 30 And because of him [4] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

Matthew 24:24
For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect

Are those scriptures in reference to scholars like Scott Hahn? Aren’t you putting yourself in a position of wisdom above his? You seem to try and present yourself as right above all points made in any threads you’ve participated in.

I’m not sure MDK will respond to you. Notice in your response to him, his quote states he put you on ignore.

 

[Reformed]

He was banned from another Catholic forum for repeatedly changing the subject to other than the topic of the threads, in many instances on threads he started, as well as providing links to websites, like the one he’s posting here, instead of paraphrasing a particular part supporting any point he was trying to make and providing a link directly to that part of the source. He also crossed the line concerning the rule of proselytizing Catholics.

Just wanted to give you a head’s up on what you’re facing here.

That’s funny, I was banned for proselytizing Catholics by sharing the sufficiency of Christ on their behalf. On the other hand, Roman Catholics are proclaiming the Roman Catholic Church to me as my great need. What’s wrong with that picture? Jesus Christ is the Savior for the Elect of God, and not the Roman Catholic Church!!! . I think God opened the heart of Justin to receive this truth.

The Preeminence of Christ

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation [7] under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Paul’s Ministry to the Church
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. 29 For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me.
Col 1

 

[TriuneUnity]

I may be way out on a limb with this one, but I bet it would be along these lines.

The person would be a member of the Church, as that is part of what Baptism does.

He would therefore be a part of the body of Christ, a reluctant one, but one none the less.

He would have access to the graces from baptism, and the gifts, but would refuse them.

According to Catholic doctrine, and I would doubt that any other faith that sees baptism in a similar way would argue much, baptism leaves a mark on you soul that is for your greater punishment in hell, should you not make it to heaven.

The question that I am stuck on is if any of his sins up until that point are washed away. I am inclined to say yes and no. The Original sin is, but as repentance is part of the actual sin, no.

He would certainly be a member of the church externally. However, since it without faith it is impossible to please God, his rejection of God’s promises given in Baptism would cut off any grace from reaching his soul. His sins would not be remitted. Only those who have faith in Christ are members of His body.

However, since we believe in one Baptism, should the unbeliever come to faith, say, 5 years later, he would not need to be rebaptized.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I believe I have asked you before, how are you trying to determine truth? Do you look to men with religious titles, or do you look to God’s Word? The Word of God is sufficient for the Christian. The person and work of Christ is sufficient.

John 10:35
If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken

Acts 17:11
Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

You realize all those scriptures you posted are referring to Old Testament scriptures, right? I mean this should be common sense since the letters and books of the Bible were written years after the death and resurrection of Christ. It wasn’t until much later that those letters and books came together to make one complete Bible.

Melito, bishop of Sardis, an ancient city of Asia Minor (see Rev 3), c. 170 AD produced the first known Christian attempt at an Old Testament canon. His list maintains the Septuagint order of books but contains only the Old Testament protocanonicals minus the Book of Esther.

The Council of Laodicea, c. 360, produced a list of books similar to today’s canon. This was one of the Church’s earliest decisions on a canon.

Pope Damasus, 366-384, in his Decree, listed the books of today’s canon.

The Council of Rome, 382, was the forum which prompted Pope Damasus’ Decree.

Bishop Exuperius of Toulouse wrote to Pope Innocent I in 405 requesting a list of canonical books. Pope Innocent listed the present canon.

The Council of Hippo, a local north Africa council of bishops created the list of the Old and New Testament books in 393 which is the same as the Roman Catholic list today.

The Council of Carthage, a local north Africa council of bishops created the same list of canonical books in 397. This is the council which many Protestant and Evangelical Christians take as the authority for the New Testament canon of books. The Old Testament canon from the same council is identical to Roman Catholic canon today. Another Council of Carthage in 419 offered the same list of canonical books.

Since the Roman Catholic Church does not define truths unless errors abound on the matter, Roman Catholic Christians look to the Council of Florence, an ecumenical council in 1441 for the first definitive list of canonical books.

The final infallible definition of canonical books for Roman Catholic Christians came from the Council of Trent in 1556 in the face of the errors of the Reformers who rejected seven Old Testament books from the canon of scripture to that time.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

That’s funny, I was banned for proselytizing Catholics by sharing the sufficiency of Christ on their behalf. On the other hand, Roman Catholics are proclaiming the Roman Catholic Church to me as my great need. What’s wrong with that picture? Jesus Christ is the Savior for the Elect of God, and not the Roman Catholic Church!!! . I think God opened the heart of Justin to receive this truth.

Catholics were sharing their faith with you as it was a Catholic forum that you stated you went to so you could learn about the Catholic faith. If that’s not why you were there, what was your purpose there and here for that matter?

 

[White_Russian]

here is the mission statement;

At later point I will talk more in depth about my conversion from Catholicism to Christianity and how to share Christ with a Catholic.

I
/

Catholics aren’t Christians? and also, thanks for the warning. “Share Christ with a Catholic?” Oh, thank you, but I didn’t know anyone had exclusive rights to Christ. I’ll pray for you to see the error of your ways.

 

[mercygate]

Congrats on the niece.

Faith is not an intellectual property; it is a supernatural gift. It has an effect on the intellect, for sure but is not dependent upon it.

Just posting because this deserves repeating – in big red letters.

Faith is also more a submission of the will than of the intellect. (confession: I just stole that from JP II.)

 

[Reformed]

Catholics were sharing their faith with you as it was a Catholic forum that you stated you went to so you could learn about the Catholic faith. If that’s not why you were there, what was your purpose there and here for that matter?

I never posted that I was on that forum to learn about the Catholic faith. By the grace of God, I was there to share Christ to professing Christians. I too need others to remind me of the person and work of Christ on my behalf too. I need Jesus Christ each and every day. What we do not need as professing Christians is to replace Jesus Christ with religious idols of our hearts (both Roman Catholics and Protestant idols of our hearts). We proclaim Christ to Christians and non-Christians alike. Roman Catholics tend to make the Roman Catholic Church as an idol, proclaiming the institution instead of Christ to others. Justin lived out that reality and is sharing Christ with professing Christians. Do you see how people are responding to his testimony? Religious Idols are great sins against our God. Where does your affection lie, with the great Triune God or the Catholic Church? BTW… all you do is share Roman Catholic dogma with me, but you have never pointed me to the person and work of Christ on my behalf. Who is your true savior my friend? Do you love Rome more than Jesus Christ? That is a private soul searching challenge between you and God.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I never posted that I was on that forum to learn about the Catholic faith. By the grace of God, I was there to share Christ to professing Christians. I too need others to remind me of the person and work of Christ on my behalf too. I need Jesus Christ each and every day. What we do not need as professing Christians is to replace Jesus Christ with religious idols of our hearts (both Roman Catholics and Protestant idols of our hearts). We proclaim Christ to Christians and non-Christians alike. Roman Catholics tend to make the Roman Catholic Church as an idol, proclaiming the institution instead of Christ to others. Justin lived out that reality and is sharing Christ with professing Christians. Do you see how people are responding to his testimony? Religious Idols are great sins against our God. Where does your affection lie, with the great Triune God or the Catholic Church?

You are confused about Catholicism. The Catholic Church is not an idol. It is the living Church created by Christ, the only begotten Son of God. Think about it. The Church and the faith existed before the complete Bible. What is the difference of our reverence of Church and your reverence of the Bible? Is the Bible your idol?

 

[Reformed]

You are confused about Catholicism. The Catholic Church is not an idol. It is the living Church created by Christ, the only begotten Son of God. Think about it. What is the difference of our reverence of Church and your reverence of the Bible? Is the Bible your idol?

The Bible points to the living Christ. The Roman Catholic Church points to herself.

John 5:39
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,

 

[PerryJ]

I never posted that I was on that forum to learn about the Catholic faith. By the grace of God, I was there to share Christ to professing Christians. I too need others to remind me of the person and work of Christ on my behalf too. I need Jesus Christ each and every day. What we do not need as professing Christians is to replace Jesus Christ with religious idols of our hearts (both Roman Catholics and Protestant idols of our hearts). We proclaim Christ to Christians and non-Christians alike. Roman Catholics tend to make the Roman Catholic Church as an idol, proclaiming the institution instead of Christ to others. Justin lived out that reality and is sharing Christ with professing Christians. Do you see how people are responding to his testimony? Religious Idols are great sins against our God. Where does your affection lie, with the great Triune God or the Catholic Church? BTW… all you do is share Roman Catholic dogma with me, but you have never pointed me to the person and work of Christ on my behalf. Who is your true savior my friend? Do you love Rome more than Jesus Christ? That is a private soul searching challenge between you and God.

It appears that you do not understand Cathlocism. A Catholic is about giving self sacrficing love to our Lord. Do you give the Lord self sacrificing love?