Cheering for excommunication of politicians

[AlanFromWichita]

I’ve noticed it is fashionable for supporters of the Church to stand by and yell, “take that you evil politician” when she sanctions one.

This :clapping: to me seem like a spiritually incorrect way to deal with the news that one of our brothers has fallen away.

I think those who rejoice at the excommunication of a politician ought to excommunicate themselves and go minister to him.

Most of those excommunicated are my political foes, btw. No way would I support Kerry, but nor should I have rejoiced in the Church disciplining him. I’m sorry that I did revel in it a bit. Back in Sister Anne’s class in eighth grade, if I snickered when another was disciplined I’d get disciplined too.

Alan

 

[Sanctus]

AlanFromWichita:

I’ve noticed it is fashionable for supporters of the Church to stand by and yell, “take that you evil politician” when she sanctions one.
This :clapping: to me seem like a spiritually incorrect way to deal with the news that one of our brothers has fallen away.

It is unfortunate that some people react rather immaturely

AlanFromWichita:

I think those who rejoice at the excommunication of a politician ought to excommunicate themselves and go minister to him.

I agree and disagree…and agree. Let me explain…I agree that rejocing is wrong if it comes from the “HAHA, everybody look (insert name here) got in trouble (insert other immature people saying “ouuuuuoooouuuuuouuuu”) isn’t it so great that he’s getting punished” because that rejoicing is just glee in seeing others troubled.

However, I think it is right to rejoice if it comes from the viewpoint of “well, I am happy that the Church is exercising prudence and is caring for the rest of her flock by protecting them from scandal”. Accompianed with that rejoicing would most likley be a sorrow that it had to come this far but a hope that this action will impress on the person in question the severity of their error.

I also agree that it’s everyone’s duty to minister to these people.

I guess everything can be summed up in “Charity in all things”

There’s my :twocents:

 

[David_Paul]

Consider the impression non-observant Catholics in the public arena give to non-Catholics. Until coming on the net, I never knew there were so many traditional Catholics. I figured most were like Kennedy (well, maybe not that outrageous but you get my drift). The church, I thought, was more of a social thing than a faith (I have since found) so many take very seriously. Figured most were going through the motions because their parents and relatives were Catholics.

 

[abcdefg]

suppose excommunication will get those CINOs a faster ride home

 

[Sanctus]

David_Paul:

Consider the impression non-observant Catholics in the public arena give to non-Catholics. Until coming on the net, I never knew there were so many traditional Catholics. I figured most were like Kennedy (well, maybe not that outrageous but you get my drift). The church, I thought, was more of a social thing than a faith (I have since found) so many take very seriously. Figured most were going through the motions because their parents and relatives were Catholics.

Isn’t it nice when sometimes you happy to be proved horribly wrong? :whacky:

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Sanctus:

Isn’t it nice when sometimes you happy to be proved horribly wrong? :whacky:

I agree with you both. This forum is a wonderful connection to many people who really do care. I may think they are misguided, but I can’t question their enthusiasm. As long as we all care, and agree that we are here to do the work of Christ and his Church each in our own way, then we can work from there.

I too had come to believe before this forum that indifference was so widespread among Catholics that nobody cared enough to change things for the better. I think a lot of the “silent majority” of Catholics might just have some concern buried under their hurt that they have disguised as indifference to protect themselves.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Sanctus:

I guess everything can be summed up in “Charity in all things”

I really like your observations. You don’t want to see the Church waver on important issues, but neither should we feel we have gained something since another has lost.

Unfortunately I think the HAHA thing is so deeply rooted in us, it may be next to impossible for men to counter the desire to see their enemies squirm.

Alan

 

[Brad]

AlanFromWichita:

I’ve noticed it is fashionable for supporters of the Church to stand by and yell, “take that you evil politician” when she sanctions one.

This :clapping: to me seem like a spiritually incorrect way to deal with the news that one of our brothers has fallen away.

I think those who rejoice at the excommunication of a politician ought to excommunicate themselves and go minister to him.

Most of those excommunicated are my political foes, btw. No way would I support Kerry, but nor should I have rejoiced in the Church disciplining him. I’m sorry that I did revel in it a bit. Back in Sister Anne’s class in eighth grade, if I snickered when another was disciplined I’d get disciplined too.

Alan

Actually, I think the rejoicing is in the fact that the Church actually defender her teachings as true rather than just allowing the faithful to think they can pick and choose their way to salvation. Further, excommunication does not mean it is impossible to return to communion with Christ’s Church. It simply means that the person excommunicated has chosen not to be in communion. Some things, such as supporting or participating in an abortion, automatically cause excommunicaiton. It is not something the Church does but, rather, identifies. This identification can do great good in saving hundreds of souls under the influence of a prominent dissenter AND possibly the dissenter himself, whereas the status quo generally does not benefit the hundreds nor the dissenter.

Think of the “cheering” as for the first step in repentance, conversion, and communion with the Church. It is the prodigal son story, except at the very beginning stages - prior to what we read in the Gospel.

Also, when was the last time a politician was excommunicated? I don’t know of any recent cases.

 

[Lance]

I think Alan is right that we sometimes rejoice too much at anothers misfortunes, even if they did bring them upon themselves. It just seems to be human nature. We should work on our on feelings about others falling away and then do our best to change them and bring them back to the Church. I am as guilty as sin about feeling a little good when I read about some pro-abortion politician being denied communion, but unlike them I recognize my fault and confess it at my next confession. Then I try to improve but I fail many more times than I am successful.

 

[fix]

The “rejoicing” is not in another’s suffering or damnation, but in the correction of error and the rightful administration of the Church and salvation of souls.

 

[fix]

Furthermore one may without sin go so far in the detestation of wrongdoing as to wish that which for its perpetrator is a very well-defined evil, yet under another aspect is a much more signal good. For instance, it would be lawful to pray for the death of a perniciously active heresiarch with a view to putting a stop to his ravages among the Christian people. Of course, it is clear that this apparent zeal must not be an excuse for catering to personal spite or party rancour.

newadvent.org/cathen/07149b.htm

 

[Ani_Ibi]

fix:

The “rejoicing” is not in another’s suffering or damnation, but in the correction of error and the rightful administration of the Church and salvation of souls.

Simply said and truly said. I am moreover not enrolled in the idea of false modesty.

 

[Sanctus]

fix:

The “rejoicing” is not in another’s suffering or damnation, but in the correction of error and the rightful administration of the Church and salvation of souls.

Indeed And it should only ever be this kind of rejoicing…I am all for the Church doing exactly what is right and prudent, and holding us all accountable! Knowing that the Church cares enough to dicipline her members I think speaks volumes…though we shouldn’t let that go to our heads.

 

[Sanctus]

AlanFromWichita:

Unfortunately I think the HAHA thing is so deeply rooted in us, it may be next to impossible for men to counter the desire to see their enemies squirm.

Alan

Here you have hit on the real issue…the sin/error that lead the politicians to being diciplined in the Church in the first place was a sin of PRIDE…thinking you know better or can do what you want to inspite of the Church is quite a prideful and presumptious thought…unfortunantly when we have that “haha” reaction instead of the other heart felt legitimate rejocing…that haha reaction is OUR pride showing through…and you’re right…pride is one of the hardest things for many of us to swallow.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

newadvent.org/cathen/07149b.htm

I was with you, Fix, rejoicing that sin is corrected and truth upheld, but here, I believe New Advent to be completely and baldly WRONG. I do not think that it would ever be pleasing to God or in accordance with His Desire for the formation of our hearts in Him to ever pray for the death of a heretic, an apostate, a schismatic or anyone else. If he held the fire to our own feet, we would still, in Christ, be called to pray for his conversion and that the Divine Mercy would be shown him and to forgive him ourselves. God may well find it in accord with His good Will to destroy the heresiarch (or, for that matter, the saint), but WE must assume that He desires their repentance and restoration. I disagree with this citation respectfully.

 

[fix]

JKirkLVNV:

I was with you, Fix, rejoicing that sin is corrected and truth upheld, but here, I believe New Advent to be completely and baldly WRONG. I do not think that it would ever be pleasing to God or in accordance with His Desire for the formation of our hearts in Him to ever pray for the death of a heretic, an apostate, a schismatic or anyone else. If he held the fire to our own feet, we would still, in Christ, be called to pray for his conversion and that the Divine Mercy would be shown him and to forgive him ourselves. God may well find it in accord with His good Will to destroy the heresiarch (or, for that matter, the saint), but WE must assume that He desires their repentance and restoration. I disagree with this citation respectfully.

I wanted to see what others had to say. That is from the old Catholic encyclopedia.

 

[papist1]

Was Kerry officially excommunincated as an heretic?

I hope so.

 

[Brendan]

JKirkLVNV:

I, I believe New Advent to be completely and baldly WRONG. I do not think that it would ever be pleasing to God or in accordance with His Desire for the formation of our hearts in Him to ever pray for the death of a heretic, an apostate, a schismatic or anyone else. .

Aquinas agreed with the New Advent as well. The article did say

“For instance, it would be lawful to pray for the death of a perniciously active heresiarch with a view to putting a stop to his ravages among the Christian people.”

And that statement is correct. It would be lawful (not sinful) to pray this way, as the intent of the prayer is the overall protection of souls (the Christian people). Thus is it therefore lawful, and New Advent’s statement is in line with Catholic teaching.

Aquinas, for example, stated that it was more just to put a heretic to death than a murderer, as the murder only kills bodies, while the heretic kills souls.

The better way, however, would be to pray for the protection of faithful souls from the ravages of heretics, and leave the actual method up to God.

 

[TPJCatholic]

I will cheer and pray for the conversion of the politicians.

 

[Brad]

Sanctus:

Indeed And it should only ever be this kind of rejoicing…I am all for the Church doing exactly what is right and prudent, and holding us all accountable! Knowing that the Church cares enough to dicipline her members I think speaks volumes…though we shouldn’t let that go to our heads.

I don’t look at it as going to my head but I do look at it as going to my kids. The current state of affaris makes it exceedingly difficult to reinforce the faith in children when those responsible for souls do not take it seriously.