Chicago Women trying to become Deacon

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I don’t think the Catholic Church is the ONLY Church. Like Fr Robert Barron said it has the fullness of grace in it’s sacraments, you can go to heaven in another Christian faith. So if someone did go to another Christian faith to serve what they believed to be their call they may become another denomination but if they are still Christian they are still on the path to heaven.
en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Unam_Sanctam

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

The Church teaches that those who are invincibly ignorant who, through no fault of their own, are not members of the Catholic Church, can still achieve salvation. However, if one has been presented with the truth and decides to leave the Church, they are not “on the path to Heaven” as you put it.

In addition, those other Christian groups (excluding of course the Orthodox) have not maintained a true Episcopate and thus are not true Churches, and cannot ordain anyone.
 
A couple of thoughts…

First of all, several have stated that it is impossible for a woman to be ordained to the Diaconate since Rome / Pope has stated that it is impossible for a woman to be ordained. What Rome / the Pope has stated is that it is impossible for a woman to be ordained as a PRIEST. If Rome or the Pope didn’t want women to be ordained as Deacons, they could proclaim: “Since women have never been ordained as Deacons and there is no evidence that women have ever been Deacons, women can not be ordained as Deacons.”
By your same logic, since it said (assuming you are referring to Ordinatio Sacerdotalis) “Priests” and not “Bishop,” a woman can become Pope.
If anyone can find anywhere a statement that has come out of Rome that it is impossible for women to be ordained as a Deacon, I’ll give $100 to your favorite charity!
Deacons require Holy Orders, and Rome has stated only men can receive Holy Orders. What is the process for a woman to become a Deacon when the woman cannot receive Holy Orders?
 
It is the only means of salvation. Elements of the Church may be found in other places, but salvation exists only through the Church.

If anyone gets to heaven it is only through the Catholic Church whether they realize on earth or not.

you refer to nonculpable ignorance. While possible it is also possible that it can be culpable ignorance.

Kinda hard for a Catholic to justify rejecting Christ through His Church claiming the Holy Spirit is calling them away from the Church.
That is not true. It’s not even supported by any priests. Yes it is the fullness of grace and the original church created by Christ but it’s not the ONLY way.
 
By your same logic, since it said (assuming you are referring to Ordinatio Sacerdotalis) “Priests” and not “Bishop,” a woman can become Pope.

Deacons require Holy Orders, and Rome has stated only men can receive Holy Orders. What is the process for a woman to become a Deacon when the woman cannot receive Holy Orders?
Lay deacons–commissioned or consecrated.
 
en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Unam_Sanctam

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

The Church teaches that those who are invincibly ignorant who, through no fault of their own, are not members of the Catholic Church, can still achieve salvation. However, if one has been presented with the truth and decides to leave the Church, they are not “on the path to Heaven” as you put it.

In addition, those other Christian groups (excluding of course the Orthodox) have not maintained a true Episcopate and thus are not true Churches, and cannot ordain anyone.
I don’t think if someone left they are going to hell. I think if they leave the Christian faith, but not if they find another faith is where they are feeling led.
 
Is not the measure of humility obedience? How does one claim faithfulness to our Lord by rejecting His authority?
Well we see several examples of people who were accused of heresy, sanctioned and/or put to death by the church for “rejecting authority” or “not being obedient” and who were later sainted and/or declared to be right:

Galileo
St Teresa of Avila
St Joan of Ark

and several others who were punished by their order for being “disobedient”
St John of the Cross (a personal favorite of mine)
St Bernadette
St Faustina

So…I will never claim to be anything near a saint but I’d be proud to be lumped in with them.
 
I don’t think if someone left they are going to hell.
We don’t get to make up our own theology.

There is no enterning into salvation outside the Church, just as in the time of the deluge there was none outside the ark, which denotes the Church. St. Thomas Aquinas - Summa Theologiae

All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it cannot be saved. The Baltimore Catechism

the one Christ is the one mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church…Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. Catechism of the Catholic Church

Saint Augustine: “He who is separated from the body of the Catholic Church, however laudable his conduct may otherwise seem, will never enjoy eternal life, and the anger of God remains on him by reason of the crime of which he is guilty in living separated from Christ.”

Saint Gregory the Great: “The holy universal Church teaches that God cannot be truly adored except within its fold; she affirms that all those who are separated from her will not be saved.”

Saint Augustine: “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.”

Saint John Chrysostom: “We know that salvation belongs to the Church alone, and that no one can partake of Christ nor be saved outside the Catholic Church and the Catholic Faith.”

Pope Saint Gregory the Great: “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.”

Saint Bede the Venerable: “He who will not willingly and humbly enter the gate of the Church will certainly be damned and enter the gate of hell whether he wants to or not.” (Sermon 16) “Without this confession, without this faith, no one can enter the kingdom of God.”

Pope Sylvester II: “I profess that outside the Catholic Church, no one is saved.”

Pope Saint Leo IX: “If you live not in the body which is Christ, you are none of His. Whose, then, are you? You have been cut off and will wither, and like the branch pruned from the vine, you will burn in the fire - an end which may God’s goodness keep far from you.”

Fourth Ecumenical Council of the Lateran: “There is only one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one can be saved.”

Pope Eugene IV: “Whoever wishes to be saved needs, above everything else, to hold the Catholic faith. Unless each one preserves this faith whole and inviolate, he will perish in eternity without a doubt.”

Pope Adrian II “The first requirement of salvation is to keep to the standard of the true faith.”

Pope Gregory XVI - “He who is separated from the body of the Catholic Church, however praiseworthy his conduct may otherwise seem, will not be saved.”

Pope Leo XIII: “Whosoever is separated from the Church is united to an adultress. He has cut himself off from the promises of the Church, and he who leaves the Church of Christ cannot arrive at the rewards of Christ…He who observes not this unity observes not the law of God, holds not the faith of the Father and the Son, clings not to life and salvation.”

Pope Pius IV “I promise, vow, and swear that, with God’s help, I shall most constantly hold and profess this true Catholic faith, outside which no one can be saved.”

Pope Pius VIII “Remember this firm dogma of our religion: that outside the true Catholic faith no one can be saved.”

Pope Pius IX “See to it that the faithful have fixed firmly in their minds this dogma of our most holy religion: the absolute necessity of the Catholic faith for attaining salvation.”

Pope St. Pius X “Where is the road which leads us to Jesus Christ? It is the Church. It is our duty to recall to everyone, great and small, the absolute necessity we are under to have recourse to this Church in order to work out our eternal salvation.”

Pope Pius XI “If any man does not enter the Church, or if any man departs from it, he is far from the hope of life and salvation.”

Pope Pius XII “No one can depart from the teaching of Catholic truth without loss of faith and salvation.”

Council of Trent - "Constantly hold and profess this true Catholic faith, without which no one can be saved.

Vatican I “This true Catholic faith, outside which no one can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold, I do promise and swear that I will most constantly keep and confess whole and inviolate with the help of God until the last breath of my life, and that I will take great care that it be held, taught, and preached by my inferiors and by those who are placed under my charge.” - Papal Oath

Saint Robert Bellarmine: “Outside the Church there is no salvation…therefore in the symbol [Apostles Creed] we join together the Church with the remission of sins: `I believe in the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins’…For this reason the Church is compared with the ark of Noah, because just as during the deluge, everyone perished who was not in the ark, so now those perish who are not in the Church.”

St. Francis of Assisi “And all of us humbly entreat and beseech everyone, all nations and all men in all the earth who are, and who shall be, that we may all of us persevere in the true faith: for otherwise no one can be saved.”

St. Louis Marie de Montfort “There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Anyone who resists this truth perishes.”
 
Shame on me? Wow. I’m so glad I come here for my daily abuse, LOL.
Hyperbole much?
I just think it’s admirable she wants to serve and I don’t see anything heretical about that statement.
Heretical? Maybe not. But it makes as much sense as a man wanting to give birth.
And most men aren’t priests or the churches would be all female. If you’re stung by that comment…well you know the rest.
You know what I meant by what I said. You tried to imply that not many men were willing to become priests, when you cannot know what “most men” think of the issue, or what they’re capable of.

I’ll say it again: Shame on you. Your bias is transparent, and it’s a little embarrassing to witness.
 
Originally Posted by fix
It is the only means of salvation. Elements of the Church may be found in other places, but salvation exists only through the Church.
If anyone gets to heaven it is only through the Catholic Church whether they realize on earth or not.
you refer to nonculpable ignorance. While possible it is also possible that it can be culpable ignorance.
Kinda hard for a Catholic to justify rejecting Christ through His Church claiming the Holy Spirit is calling them away from the Church.
That is not true. It’s not even supported by any priests. Yes it is the fullness of grace and the original church created by Christ but it’s not the ONLY way.
I am not certain what you mean isn’t supported by any priest but the Catechsim states
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.“322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, **although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.”**323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation
 
Can you give an example of “lecture inside the Church”?

Best,
Ed
I have seen women take the pulpit during the homily-time to give personal testtimony and make special pleas fort causes. But in general, I mean using the church to lecture the laity on topics of general religious interest.
 
I believe there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. Most Catholics including Fr Robert Barron who does a lot of public videos encouraging people to consider the Catholic faith admits that you can belong to another Christian faith and go to heaven. You miss the fullness of the grace in the sacraments. I would believe a priest of his caliber over cut and paste on this forum.
 
I believe there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. Most Catholics including Fr Robert Barron who does a lot of public videos encouraging people to consider the Catholic faith admits that you can belong to another Christian faith and go to heaven. You miss the fullness of the grace in the sacraments. I would believe a priest of his caliber over cut and paste on this forum.
You’re missing the context of statement’s like Fr. Barron’s. Jesus didn’t leave many churches, he left one. That wellspring of grace has to come from a single source, Jesus Christ…and he channels it through the Church he left here to guide us. You can’t get around that, no matter how hard you may want to, or how easy it may seem to make things.
 
You know what I meant by what I said. You tried to imply that not many men were willing to become priests, when you cannot know what “most men” think of the issue, or what they’re capable of.

Not many men are willing to become priests, that is obvious isn’t it? What they think isn’t my point. We have a shortage of men willing to become priests. I can’t believe that comes off as a bias.

I’ll say it again: Shame on you. Your bias is transparent, and it’s a little embarrassing to witness.

Then quit looking 🙂
 
You’re missing the context of statement’s like Fr. Barron’s. Jesus didn’t leave many churches, he left one. That wellspring of grace has to come from a single source, Jesus Christ…and he channels it through the Church he left here to guide us. You can’t get around that, no matter how hard you may want to, or how easy it may seem to make things.
Actually he did affirm you can find salvation in other churches. It was a video on leaving the Church.
 
I believe there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. Most Catholics including Fr Robert Barron who does a lot of public videos encouraging people to consider the Catholic faith admits that you can belong to another Christian faith and go to heaven. You miss the fullness of the grace in the sacraments. I would believe a priest of his caliber over cut and paste on this forum.
There is no active salvation outside of the Church. God can save anyone He wants. If someone is saved and they are not Catholic it is by ignorance. Not because they were a good “protestant” but because they didn’t know the Truth about Catholicism. Anyone who is told about Catholicism, anyone who engages in active debate and learns about the Truth of Catholicism and still chooses to reject it, will not be saved. But that is not our fault and it’s certainly not God’s fault. They “choose” to reject Christ’s Church and in so doing, they “choose” to go to hell.
 
There is no active salvation outside of the Church. God can save anyone He wants. If someone is saved and they are not Catholic it is by ignorance. Not because they were a good “protestant” but because they didn’t know the Truth about Catholicism. Anyone who is told about Catholicism, anyone who engages in active debate and learns about the Truth of Catholicism and still chooses to reject it, will not be saved. But that is not our fault and it’s certainly not God’s fault. They “choose” to reject Christ’s Church and in so doing, they “choose” to go to hell.
My entire family is Protestant and have never been Catholic. They have a strong faith in Jesus. I believe they are on their way to heaven as much (or little) as anyone else.
 
My entire family is Protestant and have never been Catholic. They have a strong faith in Jesus. I believe they are on their way to heaven as much (or little) as anyone else.
Nobody said they wouldn’t merit heaven, but your very statement doesn’t make sense. I should know, because I used to grapple with it. You have to ask yourself: “Why Catholic?” There ARE tangible, true reasons that are related to merit and effect of grace that Protestants simply do not have access to.

Think of a big glass and a little glass, both filled with water. Yes, they’re both full; but one carries more than the other.

RESEARCH what you’re saying, because right now, you’re only touting a half-truth, and it might damage your faith in the end if you don’t do your homework. You can’t just stop when you find someone that says something that makes you feel comfortable.
 
I believe there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. Most Catholics including Fr Robert Barron who does a lot of public videos encouraging people to consider the Catholic faith admits that you can belong to another Christian faith and go to heaven. You miss the fullness of the grace in the sacraments. I would believe a priest of his caliber over cut and paste on this forum.
At the same time, no one should believe for a moment that Fr. Barron, or a priest of any “caliber” (or any Catholic who gave serious reflection to the matter) would ever advise another Catholic to desert or abandon their Catholic faith for another (less complete) Christian one.

In other words, Father Barron’s eloquent material encourages people to consider the Catholic faith – **never to un-consider or discard their Catholic faith.

In turn, that would seem to imply an extreme degree of difficulty in reconciling the sentiment quoted directly below as being anything even remotely semblant to an opinion which Father Barron could give his approval to.
Mary was asked to the impossible and God made a way. Maybe this woman will realize what’s she’s asking and go to the Episcopal or Methodist Church. Her many gifts could be utilized quite well there.
Suggesting , or counseling a Catholic to leave the Catholic Church for another (unless that other happens to be on a very short list of churches whose sacraments are recognized by the Holy See) , is , bluntly, telling them to end a personal intimate relationship with our Blessed Lord in the Holy Eucharist – to throw away the greatest Treasure of all – Jesus up close, live and in person waiting to unite Himself with each one of us in the Blessed Sacrament.

DOH !

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