Child abuse crisis

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AnnoDomini1

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How do you get around this? It is so hard to explain to someone that the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus founded, when the ONLY reason they are in the news is because of coverups?
Also, will the recent news cause a dramatic decline and irrelevance of the Catholic Church? Will the church recover from this crisis?

Thanks
 
AnnoDomini1 said:
How do you get around this?
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It is not only the problem with sexual deviance with children. It is also a problem with Catholic theology professors in Catholic colleges. And it is claimed that these theology professors are faithful Catholics. I have heard Baptists say that they never heard anything like what Catholic theology professors in good standing in Catholic colleges are writing about. And they have questioned as to why so many Catholic priests are deviant. This sexual deviance with children has been reported to have occurred in many countries all over the world. It has also been reported that Catholic seminaries are lax and permissive with regards to homosexual activity.
 
You certainly raise a valid question, but it might help to keep things in perspective as best you can.

The church is not going away, even if it were to live only in you and a few of your closely held and trusted friends and family.

It would be terribly unfair to condemn our truly good and innocent brethren.

It would also be terrible - if not completely impossible - to dismiss an entire 2000+ year Theological history.

If Catholicism and the Sacraments are things you truly hold sacred, love and cherish; and, if any of our brethren you may know and trust (whether lay or professed) hold those same values sacred - Jesus is still there amongst you.

When I go to church, I still see Jesus, and I still love him.

I know that sins have marred the glory of His most Holy Face, but I also know angel hosts surround Him and tremble as they gaze.

It’s terribly, terribly sad what’s happened, and I have no intentions of trying to justify any of it.

But with respect to what is sacred, we cannot - for the Love of God - allow ourselves to fall prey to a secondary victimization either.

What happened was evil. Or - in other words - it wasn’t God’s fault.

We must not forget to discern the difference. Our redemption is in Christ Himself, and it is resting in God alone (and probably nothing of this world) that we will really find peace.
 
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I realize that such behavior is the opposite of what the Catholic Church wants us to do.
 
The evil one attacks the truth, not lies. Evil men have crept into the Church and a purge is now underway. Not one bit of this affects the truth which the Church teaches, the power of binding and loosing, or the validity of the Magisterium.
 
We don’t get around this. We side with the victims, because that is where Christ is. I think Pope Francis said it right: God abhors this sin and wants it exposed in his own house first and foremost. The temple must be cleansed, whatever the cost. The clergy cannot continue to abuse the Church and try to cover it up. The medieval structure needs to change. The clergy should be servants, not rulers, and too often they are still the latter.

Personally I think enforced clerical celibacy needs to go. Yes, I realize more than 90% of priests are not even accused of being deviant; but if it was not for enforced celibacy then the clergy would not have become a hiding place for men who want power, are not interested in marriage, but want access to other young men in an intimate environment with the outward appearance of high status. Let celibacy be expected of a few (who may then become bishops), but not enforced on the whole. Or if we are determined to keep the rule, then accept that we must be much more strict on discerning that seminarians truly have such a gift (and are not sexually disoriented), which will only exacerbate the shortage of vocations. We have to recognize the “fomes peccati” that the clerical culture has allowed to fester. And change it. Also we cannot rely on the clergy to reform themselves anymore. Sin is a deep problem in every person and everyone must be accountable to someone who does not have a conflict of interest.

“The devil could not defeat the Church, so he joined it.” I forget who said that, but it definitely seems true. Most of all, we must pray and implore God’s help to restore holiness among Catholics: pray for saints! Great saints. Or or else the Church will dwindle into a tiny remnant. The best you can do is become a saint yourself.
 
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As I’ve said before on many of these “How do you get around it?” threads, the sinful acts of others have no bearing on my personal relationship with Jesus.

As for “hard to explain to someone…” I will frankly tell them
  • the Church is a large institution
  • the vast majority of its priests and members are good and mean well (which is also my personal experience over many years)
  • the news does not report good news because it does not sell (“if it bleeds, it leads”) so you will only see the bad side of the Church in the news
  • the Church, like many large institutions, handled abuse allegations poorly in the past and suffered the consequences
  • the Church has taken many steps to improve in recent years, as shown by the quick removal and reporting to law enforcement of alleged abusers today
  • the Church is a “hospital for sinners” so people in the church, including clergy, sin, and sometimes the sins are serious
This is a lot of explaining so obviously I am only going to bother doing it when someone has a truly open mind about the Church. Most people who criticize the Church over abuse do not have an open mind for whatever reason, so it’s pointless to try to explain to them.

As for “will the recent news cause a dramatic decline and irrelevance of the Catholic Church”: No.
  • God protects his Church; it may get smaller but the quality of the people who continue to believe will improve
  • The abuse scandal has been in the public eye for literally decades (since before 1990) and the Church has not “dramatically declined” due to it
  • The Church has survived many other clergy scandals and corruptions over the past 2000 years, this is not some new unique situation
  • Jesus is still present in the Real Presence in the Church, and his presence can never be “irrelevant”
 
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I think one of the reasons that the Catholic Church is perhaps taken more to task over this issue is that it claims to be different than all other faiths and denominations of Christianity. Then this happens and we hear about how priests are only human and sadly subject to sin like everyone else.

Of course that is true, but it does leave people wondering about the special status of the Church and whether it makes any material difference or not.

If the Church is all it claims to be, and priests have the ability to confect the Real Presence, and they are consecrated to stand in for Christ, how is it possible that that has no discernable effect on them?

I believe that is the question in people’s minds. What good does having the Real Presence and the fullness of truth if there is no discernable difference?

Telling people that it will matter in the afterlife and until then they just need to keep the faith sometimes doesn’t cut it. They don’t want to one day have to say to their child…it was very terrible what Fr. Thus and Such did to you, but offer it up to Jesus and you’ll get a shorter stay in purgatory.

Not to mention the mind warp that has on the child who is told it’s a sin to touch themselves but an opportunity to suffer for Christ if someone else uses them sexually.
 
Calliope said:
If the Church is all it claims to be, and priests have the ability to confect the Real Presence, and they are consecrated to stand in for Christ, how is it possible that that has no discernable effect on them?

I believe that is the question in people’s minds. What good does having the Real Presence and the fullness of truth if there is no discernable difference?
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All through the Old Testament, God did his work through men on earth who were often sinful, sometimes very sinful. Sometimes these men repented of their grievous sin, sometimes they did not.

When a priest who is in sin consecrates the Eucharist and distributes it, Jesus makes himself available for a whole congregation of people, not just the sinful priest. The priest is not acting just for himself. Also, because we do not know what goes on in the mind of the priest, we don’t know if Jesus might be keeping him from committing some far worse evil, or helping him to repent, or what.

We can’t really explain this to anyone other than a devout Catholic. Non-Catholics also probably don’t believe in the Real Presence anyway and just see this as a case of a man/ large organization who pretended to be moral and good but was a terrible hypocrite. Also, there is a tendency these days to think of child sexual abusers as just plain 100 percent evil monsters and no one wants to think that they may have a possibility of repentance or heaven or anything good, so discussing the effect of the Eucharist or the priesthood on the alleged perpetrator is a non-starter. Someone who is very steeped in Catholic or even Christian “hate the sin, love the sinner” theology is going to be seeing this whole issue in a way that is best kept to themself.

However, I don’t think anyone is telling child victims to just “offer it up for Christ”. There are several Catholic people right on this forum who have been victim advocates and I’m absolutely sure they would hit the ceiling if anyone so much as suggested that.
 
If it were founded by the abusers, then I could see the point. But it was founded by Jesus, who was betrayed, denied, and/or abandoned by 11 out of 12 of his founding leaders, not to mentioned being turned over for abuse and death by priests of God’s chosen people. How did St. John “get around” the apparent failure of the purported Savior hanging bloodied and abandoned on a cross?

The Church is not just the clergy–it is all of us. We are here to fight this battle against evil and injustice for the salvation of souls–that there are traitors in the ranks, is sadly something there has been from the beginning. Jesus promises harsh punishments to those who abuse the flocks entrusted to them:
Luke 12:[45] But if that servant shall say in his heart: My lord is long a coming; and shall begin to strike the menservants and maidservants, and to eat and to drink and be drunk: [46] The lord of that servant will come in the day that he hopeth not, and at the hour that he knoweth not, and shall separate him, and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers. [47] And that servant who knew the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
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I see the current re-exposure as Providence’s way of continuing to get justice for victims and purge the Church, where the chief stewards have failed in their duties.

Jesus did say “Many are called but few are chosen.” The Church maybe large, but the just, the saved, may be few. And it may shrink–Jesus also asked if He would find faith on earth when he returned.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
However, I don’t think anyone is telling child victims to just “offer it up for Christ”. There are several Catholic people right on this forum who have been victim advocates and I’m absolutely sure they would hit the ceiling if anyone so much as suggested that.
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I was told exactly that. But hey, that was a different time, a different age, priests were always right, adults never did anything wrong and kids were believed to be making up stories.

As you say, it’s all different (well, at least a lot of it is different) if you’re a devout Catholic and understand the intricacies of the theology. I don’t really know what it’s like for the parent of someone who was abused who is scrambling for a way to make sense of it, have the child not use it as a reason to exit the faith, and in some way make sense of how/why they didn’t see what was happening or why they saw but didn’t address it.

I understand that it is a very complicated situation. They did fear maybe their kids made it up, maybe their kids got it wrong, they didn’t want to be the whistle blower, they didn’t want to lose their position in the parish, they wanted to wait until 20 other people came forth to make sure there wasn’t some mistake, hey, kids are resilient, maybe they’ll forget or get over it and it will all just go away. Maybe their kid did something to bring it on themselves. Maybe the priest will get transferred and they then won’t have to think about it anymore. Or yes, maybe the child can offer it up and it can actually help their faith/salvation.

The psychological gymnastics that people go through in these kinds of situations are convoluted and complex.

But to address the OP, people outside of the Church see it the same way people see psychics…if they can tell the future, why don’t they just buy a winning lottery ticket rather than read palms at 20 bucks a pop?

If the Church has all that with a cherry on top, why does it endure exactly the same situations as every other institution? It may not be valid reasoning, but that’s the thing people wonder. If it seems to make no difference, why not simply move on to a different institution that doesn’t seem to have as big a problem.

If you get bad meat at one grocery store, you shop someplace else. I truly mean no offense, nor am I comparing the Real Presence to bad meat, but as you say, people outside of Catholicism don’t understand or tend to believe the Real Presence.

Sometimes I wonder what is/was more damaging to the victims, the abuse itself, or the way it was (or all too often was not) addressed. I honestly think that it messed me up more that my parents didn’t protect me or make my well being a priority. I felt abandoned and like I wasn’t worth much to anyone, and that it was fine for anyone to treat me any old way. I was supposed to shut up and pray for the souls in purgatory, and oh yeah, I’d go to hell if I ever used my own body the way that it was apparently ok for others to use it.
 
I’m sorry you received bad guidance from people who, as you noted, probably didn’t have a good understanding of the situation or the knowledge to say and do things that would have been more beneficial to you and other victims. As you note, much of the rest of society, including medical professionals and law enforcement and probably many parents, didn’t have a good handle on dealing with these situations in the past either. I am also sorry that your parents didn’t act in a more sensitive manner towards you.

We can’t do anything about past misdeeds except to listen to the victims and try to develop better practices so we don’t repeat past mistakes and insensitivity. It may be that some people are lost to the Church because of wrongs that they suffered. We can only pray that the Holy Spirit will somehow heal them and lead them back. Meanwhile, we try to prevent any future wrongs.

I myself didn’t have abusive or bad experiences in the Church. It’s been generally very helpful to me spiritually and is part of my culture and associated with loving relationships with my parents (now dead). I have no desire to leave. I don’t care how many other people stay or if it turns into just me sitting in the Mass with Jesus. For this reason also, i don’t feel much need to explain my behavior to others.

I understand other people may not approach the Church in the same way and may even have negative associations with Christianity in general, or religion in general, often due to their upbringing or other past experiences. I can pray for them, but they have each make an individual decision how, or if, they want to proceed with their spiritual lives.
 
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Catholic theology and tradition also made things hard for the victims. The premium placed on virginity weighs hard on those who had theirs taken from them. It’s very clear you are considered damaged goods.

The story of Maria Gherreti makes it clear that it would have been better had you been killed than to somehow be complicit on any level with someone’s sexual sin. Yet her example is not an option for every victim as not all abusers would kill their victim, and it’s very possible to be raped by force without becoming a martyr for virginity.

There was a statue of her in my school reminding me every day that I shouldn’t be alive. How I missed my opportunity for sainthood and instead was filth.
 
Sorry that was your experience. I hope healing has occurred. Peace.
 
Yes, thank you. I just want people to understand the way the teachings can affect someone in that situation and the ways that sometimes theology and tradition are used to explain it. I suspect it doesn’t occur to people who have not experienced it.
 
I like Fr. Mike’s videos that have been posted on CAF. He appears to be a good and sincere priest. No doubt he is angry by the abuse crisis and didn’t know the full extent of it. I sympathize with him on not really knowing what to say. The abuse crisis hasn’t changed my desire to remain Catholic at all. I’ll always be Catholic. With all this being said, I struggle with how at least some priests could not know about the details of the abuse crisis.

I mean the Nytimes is still digging up an abusive priest who still says mass even after abuse settlements in Dec of last year. Jesuits were putting abusive priests on the Gonzaga Campus up until 2016. The Australian government created an entire taskforce to take down Pell. I don’t mean this question as rhetorical, how does the average priest miss this stuff?..By the way, I actually think that the most priests really are missing this stuff. I’d just like to know how.

When I worked in industry, everybody knew everything that happened at the top levels within a week or so. How is it different with priests?
 
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I always remind myself that even Jesus was betrayed by one of his Apostles.

I also always remind myself that the Church and the Pope are always under constant negative attack by politicians and the media.

In a world where ‘Subjective Truth’ is conquering ‘Object Truth’ and becoming the norm, I found I must always be vigilant.
 
SeekSalvation said:
Might I suggest watching Fr Mike video on this topic? I found it humbling.
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I’ve seen Fr Mike’s video(s)… And - with all due respect to Fr Mike - all due respect because I actually really like him, and I do believe he seems like a good person, and I think he means what he’s saying… But - nevertheless - Ascension’s YouTube videos are actually not his best works.

Fr Mike can be an extremely powerful speaker, and so there are naturally some very profound moments in the YouTube series. But one constructively intended criticism would be the Ascension channel sometimes borders on pushing quantity over quality… which is a mistake a lot of channels will make - because they put their best stuff up front, run out of ideas, and then end up struggling for content… I dont think Ascension is really struggling that badly, but they are cranking out a lot of stuff, and it tends to diminish the quality of the message in their works.

As for this video - the message could have and should have been a lot better. The idea that someone had to suggest he make a video on the subject, as if he’d never thought of it - really tends to trivialize a major issue… so, when he starts talking about bearing the same suffering as the victims, it comes across to me as a non-sequitir.

There’s an old episode of MAS*H where a soldier approaches Fr Mulcahy about an issue up at the front line. Fr Mulcahy makes some observations, but the soldier object, and he asks - “What? Haven’t you ever been to the front (lines)?” Fr Mulcahy, says “no”, and the soldier refuses to listen to him because “you’d have to have been there.” The only way Fr Mulcahy actually reconciles the matter is to go to the front himself on a rescue mission, where he - in the midst of battle - saves a wounded soldier by operating on him. In the end, Hawkeye congratulates Fr Mulcahy on his return, and says, “the first time I performed an operation was in a medical school surgical room, and I was terrified - I can only imagine what it was like for you…” Fr Mulcahy meekly gives Hawkeye the same reply as the first soldier put to Fr Mulcahy… Fr Mulcahy basically says to Hawkeye, “No, you can’t…”

The fact is, a few corrupt Priests and Clerical Administrators were the perpetrators, and Fr Mike could only be a secondary victim. God willing - may he, nor any one else, ever be a primary victim.

I can understand him not wanting to discuss it. But it has to be addressed - probably at the level of the crucifixion itself; and I just dont sense that given his initial comments in the context of this YouTube presentation.

With respect to such an important issue - it could have and should have been better stated.
 
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With all of the criminal background checks, the “I am not a pervert” checks, the video instructions, the required clearances–the Catholic church is now the very last place an abuser is likely to show up. It is now much safer than any other religious or public institutions.
 
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