Child does not want to marry in the Church

[Even_Keal]

Hi! Are there any resources available that could provide solid, convincing insights to change someones heart who is proposing to not have her wedding in the Church

I’m trying to help my sister out who is very distraught at her daughter’s proposal to not get married in the Catholic Church.

Her daughter (my niece) is a baptized Catholic. She is in her mid 20’s and has become very “liberal” in her worldview. She has jumped on the “destination wedding” bandwagon. I feel it will be a sad event for my sister rather then a joyful experience. But, I mainly feel sadness for my niece, for not considering the opportunity to bring the fullness of the Lord, Jesus Christ, into her marriage.

 

[Phemie]

Hi! Are there any resources available that could provide solid, convincing insights to change someones heart who is proposing to not have her wedding in the Church

I’m trying to help my sister out who is very distraught at her daughter’s proposal to not get married in the Catholic Church.

Her daughter (my niece) is a baptized Catholic. She is in her mid 20’s and has become very “liberal” in her worldview. She has jumped on the “destination wedding” bandwagon. I feel it will be a sad event for my sister rather then a joyful experience. But, I mainly feel sadness for my niece, for not considering the opportunity to bring the fullness of the Lord, Jesus Christ, into her marriage.

I have two children who have both opted for the same thing. Not even “destination”, per se, but rather “setting” based.

DD could have opted for a dispensation from form and had a valid wedding at the same location but as she said, “I’m not lying to a priest and saying that I’m going to raise my children Catholic to get permission to marry an Anglican in a park. We’re not raising our children with any religion, they’ll make their own choices later.” Just what a mother wants to hear. My greatest sadness these days are that my grandsons are not baptized. My greatest act of will has been to not baptize them when I’m giving them a bath.

DS1 married a Catholic girl. I tried my best with pamphlets and advice but they were adults and ultimately, to my and her mother’s distress, they also opted for a civil wedding in a park in their city. From snippets of conversations since, it appears that neither of them believes in much of anything and they also have made it obvious that they will not be raising their children Catholic.

To be honest, I don’t think there is anything you can say or give her to read that will convince her of the need and the good of a valid Catholic wedding if she has her mind set on something else. Just pray that she will come to her senses in time.

When I think back on my own wedding 40 years ago, I didn’t give much thought to having Jesus in my marriage. I married in the Church because that’s what I was expected to do. I knew I could marry in my husband’s ecclesial community because my priest told me I could get a dispensation to do so but it never occurred to me to do that since DH rarely set foot in church and it wasn’t important to him.

I wonder how many average people in the pew who marry in the Catholic Church because “that’s what you do when you’re Catholic” gave any conscious thought about “inviting Jesus into their marriage.” I dare say people who post here are far from your average PIP.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

A person without faith is probably not going to think that marrying in the Church and raising children Catholic is important. The battle is generally won or lost in childhood when our worldview is adopted.

 

[1ke]

I too doubt that a book or pamphlet will suddenly change the bride-to-be’s mind.

I’d give them something all the same. It may sit on a shelf for years, but it may also get read and plant a seed that one day bear fruit.

I’d suggest the book Three To Get Married by Archbishop Fulton Sheen and the website www.foryourmarriage.org

 

[carefullytread]

I would suggest not looking for those resources. This is a well trodden path and those who have been down it before will tell you there’s really nothing to say to make your niece change her mind. If anything, brining it up again will just harden her heart.

You, and your sister, should love your niece, support her life as much as possible, and pray that she comes back one day. If she comes back, it will be on her own time. Show her by example that the Church helps you lead a rich life. But don’t nag her. Don’t say “I’m praying for you”. No one is fooled by what that means. It doesn’t work.

Support her and pray for her. And maybe one day she’ll come back. Hopefully she has a long life ahead of her and a lot can happen.

 

[frizzgrig]

It is possible to have a Catholic destination wedding. The couple does marriage prep through their local parish, and a priest at the “destination” celebrates the marriage in a church, chapel, oratory or other sacred place at the destination. The couple needs to be sure the civil side of things gets properly taken care of, but it can be done. One company that offers such arrangements is found here.

 

[Phemie]

It is possible to have a Catholic destination wedding. The couple does marriage prep through their local parish, and a priest at the “destination” celebrates the marriage in a church, chapel, oratory or other sacred place at the destination. The couple needs to be sure the civil side of things gets properly taken care of, but it can be done. One company that offers such arrangements is found here.

It may be possible but in my experience the couple doesn’t want to trade their parish church for another church setting, they want the beach to be the setting. Not to mention that those who opt for a destination wedding often don’t approach the local parish to do any of the things that are required to have a wedding outside one’s own parish.

One couple I knew called the parish in a panic, a few weeks before they were due to head out, because they’d just found out that what they’d understood would happen when they booked everything (a priest would be the celebrant) and what was actually going to happen (a celebrant would be provided, religion was anyone’s guess and since it was going to be on a beach it was unlikely to be a priest) were two different things completely.

They had not even contacted our Pastor for preparation or permission or anything. They had simply assumed they could fly to the Dominican Republic and get married in a Catholic ceremony on the beach without anyone in our parish having to do anything from our end.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I have two children who have both opted for the same thing. Not even “destination”, per se, but rather “setting” based.

DD could have opted for a dispensation from form and had a valid wedding at the same location but as she said, “I’m not lying to a priest and saying that I’m going to raise my children Catholic to get permission to marry an Anglican in a park. We’re not raising our children with any religion, they’ll make their own choices later.” Just what a mother wants to hear. My greatest sadness these days are that my grandsons are not baptized. My greatest act of will has been to not baptize them when I’m giving them a bath.

That’s your greatest act of will? In a non emergency, can you even baptize your grandsons in the bathtub when your daughter and SIL don’t want them raised Catholic?

I was baptized at 6 wks old and confirmed at the ripe old age of 10. Not knowing what I was getting into. And due to the struggle in faith that I have experienced, caused my mother, may she rest in peace, whom I loved very much and adored, to say as her death was approaching, that she wished she had never had me baptized and confirmed a Catholic. She knew the conflict in faith that I have struggled with nearly my entire adult life. It’s one thing to be given the faith and raised in it and be fed the faith as a child. But an entirely different matter to believe.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Okay. If it were my kid, it would be like this: “Sure, you can get ‘married’ outside the Church. But I also don’t have to go”. I have the Melkite handbook (maybe it has changed a little) but it points out that if you don’t intend on raising your children in the Church, then maybe you should have a civil ceremony instead.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Thank you. What does illict mean to the Catholic? It’s valid but not forbidden, illegal, or unlawful?

 

[frizzgrig]

It may be possible but in my experience the couple doesn’t want to trade their parish church for another church setting, they want the beach to be the setting. Not to mention that those who opt for a destination wedding often don’t approach the local parish to do any of the things that are required to have a wedding outside one’s own parish.

One couple I knew called the parish in a panic, a few weeks before they were due to head out, because they’d just found out that what they’d understood would happen when they booked everything (a priest would be the celebrant) and what was actually going to happen (a celebrant would be provided, religion was anyone’s guess and since it was going to be on a beach it was unlikely to be a priest) were two different things completely.

They had not even contacted our Pastor for preparation or permission or anything. They had simply assumed they could fly to the Dominican Republic and get married in a Catholic ceremony on the beach without anyone in our parish having to do anything from our end.

I am deeply sorry your experience has hardened you to the possibility. I offered the original poster a potential solution that has worked for couples. If a person is set against a marriage in the Church, nothing you can do is likely to change their mind. If, however, a person is not completely hostile to the ideal of a marriage in the church but rather just really set on the destination idea, offering that such opportunities exist can open them to the idea of a wedding in the Church and the grace that comes from the celebration of the sacrament.

As with anything in life, you have to pay attention to the details to avoid the situation the couple you describe found themselves in. Marriage in the Church requires contact with clergy to arrange the pre-nuptial preparation. As you clearly mentioned, the couple in your post assumed something without checking and this led to a panicked situation.

I have worked with couples who successfully have had Catholic destination weddings. Yes the preparation work takes a bit more time, and there are a few more details to attend to - not the least of which is to make sure the couple has the complete name of the presiding cleric and the church the wedding will be celebrated in. The couple also needs to make sure they satisfy the civil requirements in the destination country or in their home country because in many places the civil ceremony is separate from the religious ceremony. They also have to allow time for their chancery office to review, approve, and forward the marriage preparation file to the presiding cleric.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Thank you. As someone who has struggled over the course of my life with matters of faith, less so as I grow older, perhaps I am at a greater peace than I have ever been, but I nonetheless understand the poster has pain and hurt from the family situation and I likewise wish them greater peace as well. And I am going to pray for it right now for them. I hope that is alright. Peace.

 

[WillyAL]

Okay. If it were my kid, it would be like this: “Sure, you can get ‘married’ outside the Church. But I also don’t have to go”.

A hard line attitude such as this, while possibly allowing you to enjoy of bit of righteous indignation, is likely to affect your relationship with your ‘kid’ (and potentially grand-kids) for many years to come. If they are still interested in a relationship, that is.

 

[Phemie]

That’s your greatest act of will? In a non emergency, can you even baptize your grandsons in the bathtub when your daughter and SIL don’t want them raised Catholic?

Yes, it is my greatest act of will. You have no idea how much I want to baptize them and a friend priest of mine said he was surprised I hadn’t already.

I know that doing so, even if kept secret between me and the priest to whom I would have to report it, would result in a valid Baptism that would impose things on my grandsons that nobody would teach them about. I don’t live close to them.

 

[Sy_Noe]

A hard line attitude such as this, while possibly allowing you to enjoy of bit of righteous indignation, is likely to affect your relationship with your ‘kid’ (and potentially grand-kids) for many years to come. If they are still interested in a relationship, that is.

While I would agree, faithful Catholics have their views.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Yes, it is my greatest act of will. You have no idea how much I want to baptize them and a friend priest of mine said he was surprised I hadn’t already.

I know that doing so, even if kept secret between me and the priest to whom I would have to report it, would result in a valid Baptism that would impose things on my grandsons that nobody would teach them about. I don’t live close to them.

I just didn’t understand why it would be such a difficult act for you to be able to contain and not perform something illicit as another poster was so gracious to explain to me about. But actually I do sense your desire and hurt and pain. That’s why I just offered a prayer up on your behalf. I sure hope you didn’t mind. May God continue to bless you and your family and your precious grandsons. I’ve little doubt you are so grateful for having them in your life. Peace be with you and yours.

 

[Padres1969]

It is possible to have a Catholic destination wedding. The couple does marriage prep through their local parish, and a priest at the “destination” celebrates the marriage in a church, chapel, oratory or other sacred place at the destination. The couple needs to be sure the civil side of things gets properly taken care of, but it can be done. One company that offers such arrangements is found here.

I’d imagine when they say destination wedding they’re not simply talking about going to a different parish to celebrate, but rather to another location (typically something outside and/or picturesque). From what I’ve read the bishop of a diocese can offer a dispensation to have a full Catholic ceremony outside a church, but in practice that dispensation is almost universally denied.

Which I feel begs a question, why? Mass can be validly held outside of a church in an appropriate setting. Many “destination weddings” are held in locations that are expressions of the beauty of the Earth God gave us. So why are they not deemed “appropriate”? And from the POV that most people will go forward with their plans for their weddings, with our without the church’s blessing, doesn’t it make sense for the church to try and keep as many people as possible in valid Catholic weddings when they can do so and canon law is not actually an impediment rather it’s the practice of bishops that is keeping it so limited?

 

[Padres1969]

Yes, it is my greatest act of will. You have no idea how much I want to baptize them and a friend priest of mine said he was surprised I hadn’t already.

I know that doing so, even if kept secret between me and the priest to whom I would have to report it, would result in a valid Baptism that would impose things on my grandsons that nobody would teach them about. I don’t live close to them.

Yeah I wouldn’t do that. Baptism by the laity is supposed to be for emergency situations only. Anything else as I understand it while valid (as any trinitarian baptism in the proper form is considered valid as far as the RCC is concerned), would be illicit (ie: illegal) and can have implications harmful to both the subjects of the baptism, their family, and the person doing the baptizing.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Yes, it is my greatest act of will. You have no idea how much I want to baptize them and a friend priest of mine said he was surprised I hadn’t already.

I know that doing so, even if kept secret between me and the priest to whom I would have to report it, would result in a valid Baptism that would impose things on my grandsons that nobody would teach them about. I don’t live close to them.

Phemie, I got to thinking more about the pain that is troubling you. Maybe this will be of some help I hope and pray it is for you. My mother never received the Sacrament of Anointing. I called. I was told my message would be relayed to a priest and that most likely a priest would get back with me yet that day or the following morning. There were 3 priests at the parish. But my mother had quickly peacefully passed before a priest returned my call later that evening. I can only trust in God and His infinite mercy and love. I pray you can do the same in your situation and it can bring you greater peace. Again many blessings.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I’d imagine when they say destination wedding they’re not simply talking about going to a different parish to celebrate, but rather to another location (typically something outside and/or picturesque). From what I’ve read the bishop of a diocese can offer a dispensation to have a full Catholic ceremony outside a church, but in practice that dispensation is almost universally denied.

Which I feel begs a question, why? Mass can be validly held outside of a church in an appropriate setting. Many “destination weddings” are held in locations that are expressions of the beauty of the Earth God gave us. So why are they not deemed “appropriate”? And from the POV that most people will go forward with their plans for their weddings, with our without the church’s blessing, doesn’t it make sense for the church to try and keep as many people as possible in valid Catholic weddings when they can do so and canon law is not actually an impediment rather it’s the practice of bishops that is keeping it so limited?

Padres, I too beg the question why? As I’ve always loved the idea of marriage ceremonies at locations that express the beauty of God’s earth. But seeing you are an Episcopalian and that you may have even sensed from my posts on CAF that I do have some affection for your church, I nevertheless have also been told by an Episcopal priest that such vows are properly made at the altar and that is the policy at his parish. As I understand it though, that is not a stipulation of all Episcopal parishes or vestries or priests in TEC. But I was a bit surprised about the policy at that particular Episcopal parish since it at the same time offers a variety of worship services from a Sat evening healing and reflection service with piano and acoustic guitar, to the more traditional Sun morning Rites 1 & 2 along with a contemporary late Sun morning service with a worship band. But anyway FWIW I just wanted to mention that priests even at this particular Episcopal parish will not officiate a wedding ceremony outdoors, for instance on a beach. I have however known an Episcopal priest who was previously at another parish to do so.