children out of wedlock

[MJJean]

With regards to decrees of nullity, Catholic Church only concerns itself with the non-Catholics who want to marry Catholics. They have to establish whether or not both parties are free to marry: have they been married, if so is the marriage liable to be dissolved, and if the marriage is liable to be dissolved, has it been dissolved?

Hey! You forgot about people like me!!

The Church also concerns itself with converts who have divorced and have already remarried, who divorced and may want to remarry someday, and those who have divorced and would like annulments for peace of mind.

 

[EasterJoy]

Hey! You forgot about people like me!!

The Church also concerns itself with converts who have divorced and have already remarried, who divorced and may want to remarry someday, and those who have divorced and would like annulments for peace of mind.

Forgive me…I consider catechumens and candidates for reception into the Church as already counted among the faithful of the Church, rather than as outsiders. (Which canon law also does, in many respects…)

 

[jediknight]

Well… its not so much a matter of them having a responsibility to follow canon law as it is a matter of whether or not the Church will recognize their marriage as valid. Canon law has requirements which determine whether or not their marriage qualifies as a valid marriage according to the catholic church. In order to get married in the catholic church you have to be able to prove that you were never married validly before. If you were married in a way that could have been valid, the Church has to investigate it to determine whether or not it was in fact valid according to the church’s understanding of a valid marriage. Thats why non-Catholics still have to get an annulment if they want to get married in the Catholic Church. the Church needs to make sure that their previous marriages weren’t valid according to the Church’s definition of a valid marriage. Does that make more sense?

Not really because how are we supposed to know that the Church is correct on their decisions of what is a valid marriage in the eyes of God ? I am sure there are plenty of scripture quoters here that can find something about divorce and yet not point to any where that states the Church is right on the matter in the eyes of Our Lord, to think that God is not going to recognize a marriage outside of the church , or between two faiths I find rather off kilter.

Then for the church to turn around and say a heterosexual couple who have lived together for any amount of time to engage pre marital sex is wrong and is a mortal sin ( I was incorrectly using the word punishment because the church does not punish anyone, the word punishment has its’ own definition ) how am I as a practicing catholic supposed to engage any couple and convince them that what they are doing is a sin or have done in the form of premarital sex is a sin, that their child out of wedlock is a blessing, and more over convince them that the Church has deemed them living together a sin, but can not explain to them where God has stated such a thing, and more over how am I supposed to explain why the Church is correct on their rules of marriage when scripturally there is no such evidence to back anything up. More over there is absolutely no researchable proof to where who ever created these said laws on marriage where prayed over and thusly instructed by God to be enacted on.

How am I supposed to explain that the Church has the right to deem what is Valid in the eyes of God in the form of marriage and how God does agree that pre marital sex is a mortal sin or a sin in general, and yet the Church still fully rejoices over the new born baby that couple has created.

and humanity does judge, we are not supposed to but Catholics do gossip in church about who is married who is not, who has a baby out of wed lock and oh isn’t that a shame that he or she isn’t married and has a baby…

so now I am supposed to some how be able to explain such things rationally, when there is no rational proof on how these rules came into existence and more over defend how people in any congregation are not sitting around judging single mothers or unwed couples.

if anyone can figure that out I would appreciate it.

 

[Xantippe]

“How am I supposed to explain that the Church has the right to deem what is Valid in the eyes of God in the form of marriage and how God does agree that pre marital sex is a mortal sin or a sin in general, and yet the Church still fully rejoices over the new born baby that couple has created.”

I don’t see what’s so hard to understand. If marriage is a lifelong bond that cannot be dissolved if it’s a real marriage, you better believe that it matters what is and isn’t a real marriage. The faithful need some guidance in figuring out whether they are or aren’t bound to a particular individual for life, for their own protection.

Oddly enough, yesterday’s Mass reading included the following from 1 Thessalonians 4:

This is the will of God, your holiness:
that you refrain from immorality,
that each of you know how to acquire a wife for himself
in holiness and honor, not in lustful passion
as do the Gentiles who do not know God;
not to take advantage of or exploit a brother or sister in this matter,
for the Lord is an avenger in all these things,
as we told you before and solemnly affirmed.
For God did not call us to impurity but to holiness.
Therefore, whoever disregards this,
disregards not a human being but God,
who also gives his Holy Spirit to you.

If you can’t find a lot of similar verses, it’s because you’re not looking very hard.

 

[jediknight]

“How am I supposed to explain that the Church has the right to deem what is Valid in the eyes of God in the form of marriage and how God does agree that pre marital sex is a mortal sin or a sin in general, and yet the Church still fully rejoices over the new born baby that couple has created.”

I don’t see what’s so hard to understand. If marriage is a lifelong bond that cannot be dissolved if it’s a real marriage, you better believe that it matters what is and isn’t a real marriage. The faithful need some guidance in figuring out whether they are or aren’t bound to a particular individual for life, for their own protection.

Oddly enough, yesterday’s Mass reading included the following from 1 Thessalonians 4:

This is the will of God, your holiness:
that you refrain from immorality,
that each of you know how to acquire a wife for himself
in holiness and honor, not in lustful passion
as do the Gentiles who do not know God;
not to take advantage of or exploit a brother or sister in this matter,
for the Lord is an avenger in all these things,
as we told you before and solemnly affirmed.
For God did not call us to impurity but to holiness.
Therefore, whoever disregards this,
disregards not a human being but God,
who also gives his Holy Spirit to you.

If you can’t find a lot of similar verses, it’s because you’re not looking very hard.

that is not an answer to my question but thanks for trying, as I figured it is just too complicated to answer.

 

[Xantippe]

No, it’s not complicated at all.

Children deserve to have happily married parents, but if babies arrive without that particular blessing, we welcome them anyway. What is so hard to understand?

 

[jediknight]

No, it’s not complicated at all.

Children deserve to have happily married parents, but if babies arrive without that particular blessing, we welcome them anyway. What is so hard to understand?

what is hard to understand that you are dodging the question that I posed and instead answering something else completely different, selective reading doesn’t help.

just repeating the same thing over and over is not an answer to a question that needs specific sources of reference that can be verified. I do not need to re ask what I have asked, some things that have mentioned do make sense to a point, I can’t go into detailed questions any further as I have already asked it previously. Nor can I clarify my question because it is about as clear as it gets.

So indeed it is very complicated because people here merely dodge the questions with the same answer over and over, " because I said so " is not an answer, nor repeating it over and over along with vague scripture passages is not much help either.

 

[EasterJoy]

what is hard to understand that you are dodging the question that I posed and instead answering something else completely different, selective reading doesn’t help.

just repeating the same thing over and over is not an answer to a question that needs specific sources of reference that can be verified. I do not need to re ask what I have asked, some things that have mentioned do make sense to a point, I can’t go into detailed questions any further as I have already asked it previously. Nor can I clarify my question because it is about as clear as it gets.

So indeed it is very complicated because people here merely dodge the questions with the same answer over and over, " because I said so " is not an answer, nor repeating it over and over along with vague scripture passages is not much help either.

I think you may be underestimating how much a lack of clarity can stand in the way of getting an answer. I do not just mean that we are unclear about what your question; I also mean that you may not even be clear about what exactly is upsetting you. I have found very often, especially when an issue upsets me, that clarifying exactly what it is that is upsetting me is a huge part of getting my question answered. One way to do that is to ask myself, “What is it about this situation that, if it were changed, would make it less upsetting?”

It is, at any rate, very hard to answer a question when it is unclear what the question is. It is clear that you are upset, but it is not clear what it is that you’re upset about.

Other than that, the only suggestion I have is to reflect on the story of the Prodigal Son. If you read that story in the context of your question, where do your sympathies lie? On whose behalf are you upset–the prodigal, the father, or the elder son who did not stray? Or are you someone else entirely–a neighbor with two sons or a neighbor the same age as one of the sons who does not want a repeat of this story in his own family? Maybe if you answer that, we’ll have a better idea of what you are getting at.

 

[Xantippe]

Easter Joy said:

“I think you may be underestimating how much a lack of clarity can stand in the way of getting an answer. I do not just mean that we are unclear about what your question; I also mean that you may not even be clear about what exactly is upsetting you.”

Yes.

jediknight,

Again, you asked, “How am I supposed to explain that the Church has the right to deem what is Valid in the eyes of God in the form of marriage and how God does agree that pre marital sex is a mortal sin or a sin in general, and yet the Church still fully rejoices over the new born baby that couple has created.”

You may be familiar with Matthew 16:18-19, where Jesus says the following:

“18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

It sounds like Peter is being given rather a lot of authority in that verse. If Peter, who we believe to be the first pope, is being given the power to bind on earth and on heaven, then it seems not unreasonable to believe that Jesus was also giving him and his successors authority to figure out what constituted a valid marriage and who is free to marry.

Again, if we believe in lifelong monogamy, we have to know who is and who is not free to marry and who is and isn’t bound to a spouse.

 

[TeachCatechism]

Those of you who say not to judge, how far do you take it? Yes I do judge someone with multiple babies by different people out of wedlock and yes these people are sinners and not someone I would associate with. However a couple who is together and had a baby out of wedlock is a couple I would encourage to attend church and marry. Someone with multiple baby mamas/baby daddies is likely not someone who attends church and is likely unable to redeem themselves. Instead we need to pay for their souls because they are immoral.

 

[EasterJoy]

Those of you who say not to judge, how far do you take it? Yes I do judge someone with multiple babies by different people out of wedlock and yes these people are sinners and not someone I would associate with. However a couple who is together and had a baby out of wedlock is a couple I would encourage to attend church and marry. Someone with multiple baby mamas/baby daddies is likely not someone who attends church and is likely unable to redeem themselves. Instead we need to pay for their souls because they are immoral.

St. Paul taught about a man living in a Christian community while living an immoral life:
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people, not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world. But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within? God will judge those outside. “Purge the evil person from your midst.” 1 Cor. 5:7-13

My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back, he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

As you imply, the idea is to judge the behavior and to conduct yourself in such a way as to turn them towards amendment of what they’ve been doing. If they amend and repent, then it is in the past–the brother who repents and is willing to amend himself is to be forgiven, even if it is over and over. (Which is, by the way, not the same as coming back and expecting to be put into a position of trust that is not deserved because one has chosen to squander the willingness of others to trust. To forgive is not the same as to be a doormat for those are not trustworthy.)

The main thing is that the Lord thirsts for each soul. If we are straying, let us hope we’ll have someone willing to try to induce us to amend ourselves! We do not want to be left alone in our sin, either because no one is willing to correct us or because no one is willing to engage with us enough to bring us around. The best course for us is the middle one, where the sin is called to task but the sinner is called back to life. That is only what we want for ourselves, and putting ourselves in the place of the person who is straying is a good way to decide how to proceed.

 

[samjustyan]

Those of you who say not to judge, how far do you take it? Yes I do judge someone with multiple babies by different people out of wedlock and yes these people are sinners and not someone I would associate with. However a couple who is together and had a baby out of wedlock is a couple I would encourage to attend church and marry. Someone with multiple baby mamas/baby daddies is likely not someone who attends church and is likely unable to redeem themselves. Instead we need to pay for their souls because they are immoral.

I myself is unmarried and have 3 kids. But if my partner and I will get married, he will be put to prison because of bigamy. In other words, he’s married. In our country, there’s no divorce, only annulment and that is only for those who can afford it. He’s separated when we met so I’m not the cause why his marriage was broken. Am I going to be condemn because of the situation I’m in?

My first son was baptized as Catholic because the priests here allows first borns to be baptized. My 2nd child was denied 5 TIMES and I’m afraid my 3rd child would also be denied. But I will have to ask the priests again if the would already allow it after what Pope Benedict 16th said about baptism of children of unwed mothers. I hope they will.

We were devoted Catholics, I sent my son to a Catholic school. We hear mass every sunday, joined the 9 days Novena and the daily Block Rosary on October, go to mass on Mama Mary’s birthday, and special days like that. Honestly, I lost my faith after my 2nd child was denied, I seldom join church activities unless my partner forces me to come. He’s faith stayed strong though. But I’m hopeful that all my children will be baptized as Catholics after Pope Benedict 16th message. Because I believe that a family with the same faith will stay strong. I’ve seen how my aunt and my cousin argue about their faith since the other one is non-catholic and that’s not good.

So, are you going to judge me because I’m not married?

 

[heidi_storage]

Those of you who say not to judge, how far do you take it? Yes I do judge someone with multiple babies by different people out of wedlock and yes these people are sinners and not someone I would associate with. However a couple who is together and had a baby out of wedlock is a couple I would encourage to attend church and marry. Someone with multiple baby mamas/baby daddies is likely not someone who attends church and is likely unable to redeem themselves. Instead we need to pay for their souls because they are immoral.

You don’t want to hang out with me; I’m a sinner! But God has been most merciful to me, and to the tax collectors, adulterers, etc. who repent. I am unable to redeem myself. We all are. That’s why we need God’s grace.

 

[TeachCatechism]

I myself is unmarried and have 3 kids. But if my partner and I will get married, he will be put to prison because of bigamy. In other words, he’s married. In our country, there’s no divorce, only annulment and that is only for those who can afford it. He’s separated when we met so I’m not the cause why his marriage was broken. Am I going to be condemn because of the situation I’m in?

My first son was baptized as Catholic because the priests here allows first borns to be baptized. My 2nd child was denied 5 TIMES and I’m afraid my 3rd child would also be denied. But I will have to ask the priests again if the would already allow it after what Pope Benedict 16th said about baptism of children of unwed mothers. I hope they will.

We were devoted Catholics, I sent my son to a Catholic school. We hear mass every sunday, joined the 9 days Novena and the daily Block Rosary on October, go to mass on Mama Mary’s birthday, and special days like that. Honestly, I lost my faith after my 2nd child was denied, I seldom join church activities unless my partner forces me to come. He’s faith stayed strong though. But I’m hopeful that all my children will be baptized as Catholics after Pope Benedict 16th message. Because I believe that a family with the same faith will stay strong. I’ve seen how my aunt and my cousin argue about their faith since the other one is non-catholic and that’s not good.

So, are you going to judge me because I’m not married?

Yes because not only are you sinning by premarital sex but also due to adultery. Adultery is one of the 10 Commandments and apparently you aren’t a good Catholic by breaking that vow.

 

[TeachCatechism]

You don’t want to hang out with me; I’m a sinner! But God has been most merciful to me, and to the tax collectors, adulterers, etc. who repent. I am unable to redeem myself. We all are. That’s why we need God’s grace.

You are Protestant why are you on a Catholic site? I don’t know you but if you were a man nope I wouldn’t look twice at a man with kids out of wedlock.

 

[TeachCatechism]

St. Paul taught about a man living in a Christian community while living an immoral life:
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people, not at all referring to the immoral of this world or the greedy and robbers or idolaters; for you would then have to leave the world. But I now write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, if he is immoral, greedy, an idolater, a slanderer, a drunkard, or a robber, not even to eat with such a person. For why should I be judging outsiders? Is it not your business to judge those within? God will judge those outside. “Purge the evil person from your midst.” 1 Cor. 5:7-13

My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back, he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

As you imply, the idea is to judge the behavior and to conduct yourself in such a way as to turn them towards amendment of what they’ve been doing. If they amend and repent, then it is in the past–the brother who repents and is willing to amend himself is to be forgiven, even if it is over and over. (Which is, by the way, not the same as coming back and expecting to be put into a position of trust that is not deserved because one has chosen to squander the willingness of others to trust. To forgive is not the same as to be a doormat for those are not trustworthy.)

The main thing is that the Lord thirsts for each soul. If we are straying, let us hope we’ll have someone willing to try to induce us to amend ourselves! We do not want to be left alone in our sin, either because no one is willing to correct us or because no one is willing to engage with us enough to bring us around. The best course for us is the middle one, where the sin is called to task but the sinner is called back to life. That is only what we want for ourselves, and putting ourselves in the place of the person who is straying is a good way to decide how to proceed.

The problem is though is the people with multiple baby mamas/daddies don’t usually want to change. I would encourage them to go to church but someone like them probably wouldn’t.

 

[agnes_therese]

You are Protestant why are you on a Catholic site?

CAF welcomes non-Catholics. Even – gasp! – non-Christians.

 

[TeachCatechism]

Fine but they need to understand the Catholic religion as well.

 

[agnes_therese]

Fine but they need to understand the Catholic religion as well.

Many non-Catholics come here to learn about Catholicism. Perhaps you should tell the owners and moderators that you think they’re not running the site correctly.

 

[TeachCatechism]

I couldn’t care less what they do but if someone expresses an obvious non Catholic view I will call them out on it. Catholics don’t have multiple kids out of wedlock, at least they shouldn’t. Catholics DEFINITELY shouldn’t have kids out of wedlock with a married person, this is adultery and a sin according to the bible.