China may ban Catholics from 2008 Olympics

[Cari]

The operative word is AFTER. The rule/threat was made to avoid what happened in Moscow and the subsequent retaliation by the USSR who boycotted the 84 Olympics. I remember it clearly on the news.

Ahhhh…that was missing from your OP. Thanks for clearing it up!

Cheers,
Cari

 

[psr13]

Definitely not. The games are about a year away not. Too late to change venues. All they can do is cancel them.

The IOC has also blackmailed countries after the Moscow boycott. If you boycott games, you will be barred from future competitions.

I think it may be time to disband the Olympics permanently

It is not too late to change venues. There are always backups. The Athens Olympics were almost changed pretty last minute due to security concerns. Where would the be done if they were changed? The most likely place is Los Angeles. Why LA? We have all the buildings. Nothing would have to be built. We have the infrastructure. LA is pretty much always the backup city.

 

[trentonzero]

Why am I always the one who has to do this?

“Christians” are not being banned from the games. Even Chinese Christians aren’t being banned from the games.

Members of the underground Church in China are being banned from the games. There’s a difference.

It’s still very wrong, but if we start firing off letters to Senators demanding they denounce China for things they aren’t even doing (banning all Christians from participating in the games), we just end up looking stupid.

There is a big difference between saying “Christians who hold membership in Chinese churchs which do not have government approval.” are banned and saying “All Christians are banned.”

Someone pointed out, very sanely, that if China banned all Christians from participating in the Olympics, they would be banning almost all the contenders. And since the Communist party views the Olympics as its chance to show the world that China isn’t the way it used to be, it would not be smart to immediately ban almost all the foreign athletes from playing on such small grounds.

By all means, please send letters protesting this bad thing the government is doing, but don’t make yourself and Catholics look stupid by not taking two minutes to understand what is actually happening first…

BTW: I don’t support changing the venue. Anyone wants a reason why? Compare the policies of China (socialist, isolated for a long time) and Taiwan (socialist, with heavy international trade and involvement).

Then compare the policies of China (socialist, recently and increasingly open to international trade and dialogue) and the policies of North Korea (socialist, totally shut off).

Now compare China today (yeah yeah, I read all the news stories too…and then I go to Church, in China. The big church, downtown, with a big cross on top of a 100 ft steeple and a picture of Pope Benedict in the courtyard. And I teach classes, in China, where the adult students feel absolutely no shame or concern about their coworkers and friends knowing them to be Christian…who even bring their Bibles to class with them…where I have even child students see my crucifix and say “Yesu” (chinese for Jesus) and bow their heads)…to China 30 years ago (Christians go to labor camps…oh yeah, that’s also the period of time when China had as its policy what almost everyone on this forum wants to be its policy now: isolationism).

Doesn’t it strike anyone else as common sense that if Mao and Kim and Castro fear(ed) international relations as a corrupting influence, and hence endorsed isolationism as the only way to preserve the purity of the communist revolution…that shoving isolationism down their throats is the worst possible foreign policy?!?

 

[Aramis]

The article specifies foreigners may be screened for one of the 43 religions.

The Churches in Union with Rome are ALL banned in china, as one of the 43. So, the article clearly implies that being catholic is grounds to not be admitted.

 

[Cari]

Why am I always the one who has to do this?

“Christians” are not being banned from the games. Even Chinese Christians aren’t being banned from the games.

Members of the underground Church in China are being banned from the games. There’s a difference.

Could you please link a source for this? I’m not saying you’re right or wrong, but the original article states:
Foreign athletes, members of the media, Olympic staff members, referees, sponsors, dignitaries, and the International Olympic Committee itself, will all be investigated, to determine whether they fall into any of the 43 categories [who may be barred from the games]

This is clearly different from what you’re saying is the official version. Neither is good, but there IS a big difference. Any links you could provide to help us all understand more clearly before we take action would be great.

Thanks!
Cari

p.s. You state that “Chinese Christians” aren’t being banned from the games, yet say that members of the underground Catholic Church in China ARE. Are those members not Christians?

 

[trentonzero]

The article specifies foreigners may be screened for one of the 43 religions.

The Churches in Union with Rome are ALL banned in china, as one of the 43. So, the article clearly implies that being catholic is grounds to not be admitted.

No…

It is forbidden for any organization, religious or secular, which owes allegiance to any foreign entity to operate in China.

If this worked the way you said it worked…then I am in China illegally, as I am a not only a Catholic who supports the Pope in Rome, but an American whose national loyalities lie with the American government.

However, I’ve read my visa, and my working permits, and my residence permits, and my state-written employment contract…no where, anywhere, does it say I am forbidden from being loyal to America or Rome. It simply says I am not to interfere in Chinese politics or religious practices.

But sure…tell you what? You just remember this conversation, and sit pretty. Keep it in your mind.

Mark your calendar.

And when the Beijing Olympics come around in 2008…you remember to go look and see if you can find any evidence of foreign Catholic athletes being barred the right to perform.

In the mean time, I’d simply love to have someone explain to me how exactly it will set back the cause of freedom in China for an American/European Catholic to sit next to a Chinese national at the Beijing Olympics.

As a man who has seen, as a teacher, in one 4 month Oral English class, students go from rabidly anti-American to pro-reform, merely by being around an American who didn’t fit their image of Americans as heartless war-maniacs, who can claim to his credit one young, pro-West, pro-democracy, pro-freedom member of the Communist Party…

I’d like to hear how the cause of freedom is done wrong by having thousands upon thousands of Chinese interact with thousands upon thousands of more freedom minded foreigners, that we should be looking for the first excuse to cancel it.

Not only do I think we should hold the Olympics in Beijing…I think we should hold them in Pyongyang next. Then perhaps Tehran.

 

[trentonzero]

Could you please link a source for this? I’m not saying you’re right or wrong, but the original article states:
Foreign athletes, members of the media, Olympic staff members, referees, sponsors, dignitaries, and the International Olympic Committee itself, will all be investigated, to determine whether they fall into any of the 43 categories [who may be barred from the games]

This is clearly different from what you’re saying is the official version. Neither is good, but there IS a big difference. Any links you could provide to help us all understand more clearly before we take action would be great.

Yes. It says that anyone who is a member of those 43 categories will be banned. So, you know, if you happen to have membership in the UNDERGROUND CHINESE CATHOLIC CHURCH, you might have some trouble.

But no, no one in the Chinese government expects your primary loyalties, as a foreigner, to lie with Beijing. How crazy do you think they are? They know you have loyalities to foreign entities…your a foreigner!! You are loyal to a foreign entity by definition! In fact, if you came to China, and claimed loyality to Beijing, they wouldn’t believe you!!

p.s. You state that “Chinese Christians” aren’t being banned from the games, yet say that members of the underground Catholic Church in China ARE. Are those members not Christians?

All Chinese Christians are Christians, but not all Chinese Christians are members of the underground Catholic Church.

And I didn’t say what was happening was good.

I am saying that we should bother to find out what is wrong before we go shouting about it.

And that cancelling the Olympics in Beijing is a blow to freedom, not a support of it.

 

[trentonzero]

As for other sources…I haven’t searched exaustively, but I can’t find any mention of this anywhere except for blogs and this newswire.

 

[trentonzero]

Just because I regularly get accused of whitewashing in threads like these, here are some things that could happen:

1. There could be a protest during the Olympic games by a dissident group, which ends in violence. The government is making very clear warnings using the state press that any Chinese who “humilate China” during the games will not be tolerated.
2. A Chinese Olympiad could win a metal and make a speech critical of the government, thinking that all the international attention would keep him safe…and he could be arrested and maybe even killed. His name will be dragged through the mud in the state press to say the least
3. The government could be watching phone calls and internet access in Beijing hotels.
4. Religious missionaries could come into the country saying they want to watch the games…but actually do missionary work…and wind up being deported.

Its a bad government, and it can and will do alot of unjust things. Not as bad as it was during the Cultural Revolution, but still bad.

But what won’t happen…A lay Catholic member of the American swim team will not have his visa denied. I assure you that. It doesn’t make sense…it contradicts the government’s whole reason for being excited about the games in the first place.

Let’s just make sure we complain about the right thing, and that we are all working towards the same goal (the religious and political freedom of the Chinese people…which is not served by cancelling the Beijing Olympics).

 

[childofmary1143]

Just because I regularly get accused of whitewashing in threads like these, here are some things that could happen:

1. There could be a protest during the Olympic games by a dissident group, which ends in violence. The government is making very clear warnings using the state press that any Chinese who “humilate China” during the games will not be tolerated.
2. A Chinese Olympiad could win a metal and make a speech critical of the government, thinking that all the international attention would keep him safe…and he could be arrested and maybe even killed. His name will be dragged through the mud in the state press to say the least
3. The government could be watching phone calls and internet access in Beijing hotels.
4. Religious missionaries could come into the country saying they want to watch the games…but actually do missionary work…and wind up being deported.

Its a bad government, and it can and will do alot of unjust things. Not as bad as it was during the Cultural Revolution, but still bad.

But what won’t happen…A lay Catholic member of the American swim team will not have his visa denied. I assure you that. It doesn’t make sense…it contradicts the government’s whole reason for being excited about the games in the first place.

Let’s just make sure we complain about the right thing, and that we are all working towards the same goal (the religious and political freedom of the Chinese people…which is not served by cancelling the Beijing Olympics).

Even though I started this thread I would have to TOTALLY agree with what he said. Despite China being a ruthless regime this isn’t 1936 Germany with Hitler.

 

[JohnPaul]

and some people call these toads our ‘trading partners’?

 

[redmars3000]

Even though I started this thread I would have to TOTALLY agree with what he said. Despite China being a ruthless regime this isn’t 1936 Germany with Hitler.

Depends. They aren’t rolling over other countries with tanks, yet. But how many babies have they killed by their mandated abortion for 2nd child families? Similar to Hitler in that aspect. Seeing people as numbers. China has a long way to go.

 

[trentonzero]

and some people call these toads our ‘trading partners’?

Yes. And properly so, for the reasons already stated on the last page…

 

[trentonzero]

Depends. They aren’t rolling over other countries with tanks, yet. But how many babies have they killed by their mandated abortion for 2nd child families? Similar to Hitler in that aspect. Seeing people as numbers. China has a long way to go.

Let’s be fair…Hitler announced his intentions to unify Europe under Germany and eliminate the Jews very quickly.

Communist China’s been around for 60 years, and has mellowed out immensly since the death of Mao. Outside of the Taiwan issue, they haven’t been threatening anyone, and they’ve even served as a calming influence on North Korea.

(They are also beefing up their military, cosing up to the oil rich nations of the Middle East, and propaganda about the evils of Japan is regular. So not absurd that they will start trying to push someone around soon. And yes, the forced abortions are terrible…and there are strong hints of serious impropriety floating around in the organ transplant field…still not sure what to make of that.)

 

[ABostonCatholic]

Why am I always the one who has to do this?

“Christians” are not being banned from the games. Even Chinese Christians aren’t being banned from the games.

Members of the underground Church in China are being banned from the games. There’s a difference.

It’s still very wrong, but if we start firing off letters to Senators demanding they denounce China for things they aren’t even doing (banning all Christians from participating in the games), we just end up looking stupid.

There is a big difference between saying “Christians who hold membership in Chinese churchs which do not have government approval.” are banned and saying “All Christians are banned.”

Someone pointed out, very sanely, that if China banned all Christians from participating in the Olympics, they would be banning almost all the contenders. And since the Communist party views the Olympics as its chance to show the world that China isn’t the way it used to be, it would not be smart to immediately ban almost all the foreign athletes from playing on such small grounds.

By all means, please send letters protesting this bad thing the government is doing, but don’t make yourself and Catholics look stupid by not taking two minutes to understand what is actually happening first…

BTW: I don’t support changing the venue. Anyone wants a reason why? Compare the policies of China (socialist, isolated for a long time) and Taiwan (socialist, with heavy international trade and involvement).

Then compare the policies of China (socialist, recently and increasingly open to international trade and dialogue) and the policies of North Korea (socialist, totally shut off).

Now compare China today (yeah yeah, I read all the news stories too…and then I go to Church, in China. The big church, downtown, with a big cross on top of a 100 ft steeple and a picture of Pope Benedict in the courtyard. And I teach classes, in China, where the adult students feel absolutely no shame or concern about their coworkers and friends knowing them to be Christian…who even bring their Bibles to class with them…where I have even child students see my crucifix and say “Yesu” (chinese for Jesus) and bow their heads)…to China 30 years ago (Christians go to labor camps…oh yeah, that’s also the period of time when China had as its policy what almost everyone on this forum wants to be its policy now: isolationism).

Doesn’t it strike anyone else as common sense that if Mao and Kim and Castro fear(ed) international relations as a corrupting influence, and hence endorsed isolationism as the only way to preserve the purity of the communist revolution…that shoving isolationism down their throats is the worst possible foreign policy?!?

No, it’s just various ideological opponents. That’s much better. And yes, it is still worth protesting against.

 

[redmars3000]

Let’s be fair…Hitler announced his intentions to unify Europe under Germany and eliminate the Jews very quickly.

Communist China’s been around for 60 years, and has mellowed out immensly since the death of Mao. Outside of the Taiwan issue, they haven’t been threatening anyone, and they’ve even served as a calming influence on North Korea.

(They are also beefing up their military, cosing up to the oil rich nations of the Middle East, and propaganda about the evils of Japan is regular. So not absurd that they will start trying to push someone around soon. And yes, the forced abortions are terrible…and there are strong hints of serious impropriety floating around in the organ transplant field…still not sure what to make of that.)

Well, I think what you have said is a mixed message. We should give China a break but “They are also beefing up their military, cosing up to the oil rich nations of the Middle East, and propaganda about the evils of Japan is regular. So not absurd that they will start trying to push someone around soon.” Saying this doesn’t make sense to me if you are trying to persuade ppl that China isn’t akin to a dictatorial gov’t like Nazi Germany. I think what is even scarier than Nazi Germany is that they have not so brazenly told the world their plans.

The main question to ask the Chinese gov’t is why they are growing their military by an incredible amount when there is no one threatening their borders. Pre world war 2 history repeating?

 

[Cari]

The main question to ask the Chinese gov’t is why they are growing their military by an incredible amount when there is no one threatening their borders.

It must be to protect themselves from people in those 43 “banned” categories.

 

[trentonzero]

Well, I think what you have said is a mixed message. We should give China a break but “They are also beefing up their military, cosing up to the oil rich nations of the Middle East, and propaganda about the evils of Japan is regular. So not absurd that they will start trying to push someone around soon.” Saying this doesn’t make sense to me if you are trying to persuade ppl that China isn’t akin to a dictatorial gov’t like Nazi Germany. I think what is even scarier than Nazi Germany is that they have not so brazenly told the world their plans.

The main question to ask the Chinese gov’t is why they are growing their military by an incredible amount when there is no one threatening their borders. Pre world war 2 history repeating?

They have told the world their plans. Their plans are:

• To have access to natural resources for the economy, primarily oil, but also steel, etc.
• A confesion that Leninist-Marxist Communism is a failure, and an embracement of Neo-Leninism as the official ideaology (in a nut shell, it says “We will have to become fully modernized, using capitalism, before communism can work”).
• Insistance that Taiwan, Tibet, and Xinjiang are all part of China, and that other countries ought not interfere in China’s internal affairs.

You can believe they secretly plot world conquest if you like. But saying the Chinese are being unnaturally secretive and closed about their country…well, that just misunderstands the entire situation. Right now is the most open and unsecretive China has ever been in its history.

But no, I’m not sending mixed messages. They are not very good. Just because I don’t think they are secretly plotting world conquest or that they plan to bar the vast majority of the Olympic atheletes from entering the country…doesn’t mean I think this government is good. That we ought to turn our backs on them. That they don’t commit massive crimes.

But what alot of people have wrong is that its trajectory is overwelmingly positive. I’ve seen this country change so much in 4 years since I’ve gotten here. And people I know who have been here for 10 years say it is completely unrecognizable. Another 10 years before that, and you have Tiannemen. Another 10 years ebfore that, you had teenagers wandering the country, torturing, imprisoning, killing anyone they thought wasn’t militantly communist enough.

And when people say “Lets not talk to them. Lets not trade with them. Lets boycott their Olympics.”…it strikes me as pushing them back where they were, instead of where they need to go.

Trying to remember the saying…“If goods don’t cross borders, armies will.”

(My opinion on the military build up: The middle east. The country is growing by leaps and bounds. It needs resources (oil). 20 years ago, you had the West and Russia fighting proxy wars in the middle east to get the best oil deals (West helping Iraq and Russia helping Iran in the 80s). Now we have the US standing pretty much alone. China is building up its military so it can also intervene in the middle east to keep its oil secure. It’s playing just like before actually…an American Iraq, and an Iran that is getting increasingly cozy with China.)

EDIT: I am definately NOT saying give China a break. That is a complete and utter misunderstanding of what I’m saying. I’m saying the fastest and surest way of undermining an authoritarian government is to have as much economic, political, and personal contact between its people and a free people. And the surest way to fortify its power is to kill trade.

Make no mistake, I want China to become a liberal democracy, like most of the First World is. I want the communist party to fall, at least as a party that holds exclusive control of the government.

And the fastest and surest way to make that happen is to trade with them as much as possible, and have American/Europeans/Australians/Japanese/S.Koreans interact directly with the people of China as much as possible…preferably with young, new members of the Communist party, since those are the people who are going to have the power to make changes in 10 or 20 years.

I don’t advocate giving the Communist Party “a break”, and that’s probably why you think I’m sending mixed messages.

 

[redmars3000]

I never said we shouldn’t trade with China. My opinion can be summed up from a previos post:

"We do business with China because it is our way of Conquering them slowly. When Nixon signed the trade deal with China, it was not because he wanted really cheap goods, it was because it was a way to prevent war if both of our economies were dependent on eachother.

The Chinese are trying to build a modern society with a wealthy population and high standard of living only because they see it as a way to compete with the west and ultimately, give them power politically and militarily. They are gambling on creating a middle class but without the political power the middle class has in the west (democratic gov’ts).

We are betting that if they create a modern western society, their current tyrannical form of government will have to change or it will face revolution like all of the western countries did long ago.

Hopefully we bet right and they dont start a war over Taiwan before that all happens.

Anyways, that is why we trade with china. Im sure some like it cause of the almighty dollar, but that still isnt the biggest priority to our government.

It would be national suicide for us if we cut off trade from china arbitrarily . Think about a country like North Korea but instead with an army that could field upwards of 600 million men (that is twice our total population). Their isn’t much deterrent against that except nukes or… tada interdependent economies."

To go back to what you said earlier: “You can believe they secretly plot world conquest if you like. But saying the Chinese are being unnaturally secretive and closed about their country…well, that just misunderstands the entire situation. Right now is the most open and unsecretive China has ever been in its history.”

Think about what you have said. If China insists on making Taiwan part of its domain, who do you think they are going to have to go through in order to get that goal??? Cough Us!!! Americans!!! So yes in fact, it is planning world conquest because it needs to defeat the U.S. If China attacks the U.S. you have just included Europe into this war as well (remember that NATO still exists). This would be nothing short of world war 3. What happens if China does defeat us? Think of the power vauum left. Will China leave itself to Taiwan and Tibet and leave the power vacuum for the rest of the world to fill? How much bigger of a scale do you need to get to in order to claim a government is bent on world Hegemony?

Listen, I’m not trying to condemn your culture your heritage. You seem like a reasonable guy. Some of our people here in the U.S. are bigots sure, just like I’m sure there are some Chinese who irrationally hate Americans. Don’t pay attention to our own crazy anti-China isolationists. They are a small minority.

But a rational American like myself gripe about China because we are scared to death of it! We dont want to fight a world war 3 because we remember world war 2. Espescially over something as silly as China’s claim to have Taiwan. But if we are attacked we will fight because we have honor. We defend our people and our allies, espescially when it is to protect those who are least able to protect themselves (Taiwan). When we complain about China it is because it is still (even with reform) anti-western. It is still bent on taking Taiwan even though that is something that happened over 50 years ago. Because it consistently is building up it’s armed forces at an arms race pace when no one is bullying it around. It lobs a missle at a satellite in a demonstration of its ability to knock out comms sattellites with a statement of ‘watch out U.S.’. Chinese subs have begun trailing American aircraft carriers. Chinese torpedos are being designed specifically take out American Carriers.

What do you expect a rational level headed American to think? We think your government is preparing to attack us at some point in the future! Probably when we are at weak point. Why? To take land and wealth! How is that different from what the Japanese did during the buildup before WW2? It was the same story too. ‘The west bullied us around, now it’s our turn for world empire.’ I dont care what the Chinese Gov’t says. America is not a war loving country, and we really dont want to dominate the globe. We just want to live in peace and worship God without people bullying us around, and as a result we are a superpower because of our self-defense and the blessings of God.

I really hope what you say about positive change in China is true. I really really want it to be true. I hope they give you the power to vote in free elections one day without revolution or massacres. I and most Americans DO NOT want to kill people. I and most Americans DO NOT want to fight a war with China, or any country for that matter for any reason other than self-defense.

 

[redmars3000]

Ok, I can see we are both playing edit tag.

Before I edit my post again, let me say I think we both are agreeing on the same things. It was just a misunderstanding on my part, thinking that you were giving the Communist gov’t a pass because it is different from the 70’s.

No Worries then friend.

Problem solved.