China says "sincere" with Vatican ahead of ordination

[Dale_M]

China said on Tuesday it was sincere about better ties with the Vatican, a day before the planned ordination of a bishop that will be a test of whether the two sides can rein in tensions over control of religious life.

The Vatican and Beijing agreed to allow Father Peter Luo Xuegang, serving alongside an aged and more senior “ordinary” bishop, to be ordained in Yibin diocese in southwest China, according to reports. That would mark a break with a cluster of controversial appointments made without the Pope’s approval.

The ordination of bishops is a key test in dealings between China and the Vatican, because it sets the Communist Party’s role in policing religious life against the Catholic Church’s traditional hostility to interference from secular authorities.

news.yahoo.com/china-says-sincere-vatican-ahead-ordination-125849347.html;_ylt=AjROJQHIWFdEU0K2PHPpFQI7Xs8F;_ylu=X3oDMTQ0ajQxMzR1BG1pdANUb3BTdG9yeSBVU1NGIFJlbGlnaW9uU1NGBHBrZwMxZjhiNDQ0Zi02YmVhLTNiMjItOTNlMy1hOThmMjJjMTY0YmUEcG9zAzI0BHNlYwN0b3Bfc3RvcnkEdmVyAzE1Y2ExNjAwLTFhOGEtMTFlMS05ZGJhLTQ1NzFkZjRhZTkwZQ–;_ylg=X3oDMTF2Y2VzZTFkBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdAN1c3xyZWxpZ2lvbgRwdANzZWN0aW9ucwR0ZXN0Aw–;_ylv=3

Unfortunately, an illicitly consecrated Chinese bishop attended the service, to the disapproval of the Vatican.

Vatican laments ‘illegitimate’ bishop at China ordination

The Vatican on Wednesday said it disapproved of the presence of an excommunicated Chinese bishop at an ordination ceremony, having asked that no “illegitimate” clergy take part.

The ordination of Luo Xuegang in Yibin in Sichuan was approved by both China’s official church and the Vatican – a sign tensions could be thawing after a run of ordinations without papal approval which had irked the Holy See.

But while Holy See spokesman Federico Lombardi said the ordination was “positive”, the Vatican was not happy about the presence of bishop Lei Shiyin, who was excommunicated in June after he was ordained without papal approval.

news.yahoo.com/vatican-laments-illegitimate-bishop-china-ordination-190847958.html;_ylt=ArvnRyvM1O6dV6LPj21Of207Xs8F;_ylu=X3oDMTQ0NnVxc2YzBG1pdANUb3BTdG9yeSBVU1NGIFJlbGlnaW9uU1NGBHBrZwNlNGQyMDc3NC1jOGViLTM2OTUtYjM4OC1iYWNjNDlkODQ2ZTYEcG9zAzE3BHNlYwN0b3Bfc3RvcnkEdmVyA2YwMTM3NDgwLTFiODYtMTFlMS05ZjY3LWQxZGE4YmQxOGM2NA–;_ylg=X3oDMTF2Y2VzZTFkBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdAN1c3xyZWxpZ2lvbgRwdANzZWN0aW9ucwR0ZXN0Aw–;_ylv=3

The tension between the Vatican and the state-run Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association has been a long running thorn. The Holy See is trying to avoid schism, but the Chinese government does not want to cede control over their bishops to a foreign power.

 

[Digitonomy]

The Holy See is trying to avoid schism

I think it is more accurate to say the Holy See is trying to heal a schism that has been present to greater and lesser degrees over the past 60 years.

 

[catharina]

Are you saying that you imagine the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Assn is a part of
the Catholic Church? It is not. it is a group quite distinct from (and outside of) the
Catholic Church.

If you are not implying that, then what are you actually saying?

 

[Dale_M]

Are you saying that you imagine the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Assn is a part of
the Catholic Church? It is not. it is a group quite distinct from (and outside of) the
Catholic Church.

Most, if not all, of the bishops of the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association have valid apostolic succession and the ordinations they confer are valid. The intention of the Holy See is to bring them back fully into the Church.

Here is a relevant section from Pope Benedict’s 2007 Letter to the Bishops, Priests, Consecrated Persons and Lay Faithful of the Catholic Church in the People’s Republic of China. The section I am quoting concerns the Catholic bishops of China.

Some of them, not wishing to be subjected to undue control exercised over the life of the Church, and eager to maintain total fidelity to the Successor of Peter and to Catholic doctrine, have felt themselves constrained to opt for clandestine consecration. The clandestine condition is not a normal feature of the Church’s life, and history shows that Pastors and faithful have recourse to it only amid suffering, in the desire to maintain the integrity of their faith and to resist interference from State agencies in matters pertaining intimately to the Church’s life. For this reason the Holy See hopes that these legitimate Pastors may be recognized as such by governmental authorities for civil effects too – insofar as these are necessary – and that all the faithful may be able to express their faith freely in the social context in which they live.

Other Pastors, however, under the pressure of particular circumstances, have consented to receive episcopal ordination without the pontifical mandate, but have subsequently asked to be received into communion with the Successor of Peter and with their other brothers in the episcopate. The Pope, considering the sincerity of their sentiments and the complexity of the situation, and taking into account the opinion of neighbouring Bishops, by virtue of his proper responsibility as universal Pastor of the Church, has granted them the full and legitimate exercise of episcopal jurisdiction. This initiative of the Pope resulted from knowledge of the particular circumstances of their ordination and from his profound pastoral concern to favour the reestablishment of full communion. Unfortunately, in most cases, priests and the faithful have not been adequately informed that their Bishop has been legitimized, and this has given rise to a number of grave problems of conscience. What is more, some legitimized Bishops have failed to provide any clear signs to prove that they have been legitimized. For this reason it is indispensable, for the spiritual good of the diocesan communities concerned, that legitimation, once it has occurred, is brought into the public domain at the earliest opportunity, and that the legitimized Bishops provide unequivocal and increasing signs of full communion with the Successor of Peter.

Finally, there are certain Bishops – a very small number of them – who have been ordained without the Pontifical mandate and who have not asked for or have not yet obtained, the necessary legitimation. According to the doctrine of the Catholic Church, they are to be considered illegitimate, but validly ordained, as long as it is certain that they have received ordination from validly ordained Bishops and that the Catholic rite of episcopal ordination has been respected. Therefore, although not in communion with the Pope, they exercise their ministry validly in the administration of the sacraments, even if they do so illegitimately. What great spiritual enrichment would ensue for the Church in China if, the necessary conditions having been established, these Pastors too were to enter into communion with the Successor of Peter and with the entire Catholic episcopate! Not only would their episcopal ministry be legitimized, there would also be an enrichment of their communion with the priests and the faithful who consider the Church in China part of the Catholic Church, united with the Bishop of Rome and with all the other particular Churches spread throughout the world.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070527_china_en.html

 

[catharina]

Most, if not all, of the bishops of the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association have valid apostolic succession and the ordinations they confer are valid. The intention of the Holy See is to bring them back fully into the Church.

Here is a relevant section from Pope Benedict’s 2007 Letter to the Bishops, Priests, Consecrated Persons and Lay Faithful of the Catholic Church in the People’s Republic of China. The section I am quoting concerns the Catholic bishops of China.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20070527_china_en.html

Uh-huh. Yet at present, they are in schism.

 

[Dale_M]

Uh-huh. Yet at present, they are in schism.

Honestly, I am not sure what the official status of the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association is. Since the Vatican is jointly selecting new bishops (at least some of the time) in the CPCA, it suggests something less than full-on schism. But certainly it remains independent of the authority of the Holy See and has been defiant of the Holy See’s direction.

I don’t want to get bogged down in semantics, but I suspect that Digitonomy’s take is correct. The Vatican is trying to heal a schism which took place 60 years ago. The CPCA’s status at present seems more complicated.

 

[catharina]

Honestly, I am not sure what the official status of the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association is. Since the Vatican is jointly selecting new bishops (at least some of the time) in the CPCA, it suggests something less than full-on schism. But certainly it remains independent of the authority of the Holy See and has been defiant of the Holy See’s direction.

I don’t want to get bogged down in semantics, but I suspect that Digitonomy’s take is correct. The Vatican is trying to heal a schism which took place 60 years ago. The CPCA’s status at present seems more complicated.

This is not amtter of semantics. Digitonomy is correct.
The situation is one of long-standing schism.
There’s is no way to sweeten that pill.

It might enhance your knowledge if you look at the site
cardinalkungfoundation.org/
the advocate for the true, only and underground Catholic Church in China.
The Catholic Church in China was outlawed (forbidden) more than FIFTY years ago.
It remains so.

 

[Dale_M]

Catharina, I am aware of the Cardinal Kung Foundation. The “underground” Church has suffered greatly during the decades of Communist rule in China. But as the letter from Pope Benedict indicated, the underground bishops and priests are not the only legitimate Catholic clergy in China.

The Vatican has been walking a very careful course to bring the bishops and priests of the CPCA back into allegiance to the Holy See.

 

[catharina]

Catharina, I am aware of the Cardinal Kung Foundation. The “underground” Church has suffered greatly during the decades of Communist rule in China. But as the letter from Pope Benedict indicated, the underground bishops and priests are not the only legitimate Catholic clergy in China.

The Vatican has been walking a very careful course to bring the bishops and priests of the CPCA back into allegiance to the Holy See.

Rather than looking to yahoo, one might look to sites clealry linked to the Church.
For example, from the Archdiocese of New York, recently:

"September 22, 2011

Prayerful Support for China’s Catholics

What if one of your brothers or sisters told you they were being harassed just because of their faith? Wouldn’t you want to help?

Tragically, our brothers and sisters in Christ in many parts of the world right now need our help. Religious minorities, especially Christians of late, often find themselves harassed and even attacked, simply because of their faith.

As the Second Vatican Council declared, “religious freedom has its foundation in the very dignity of the human person.” Religious freedom is enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and is theoretically recognized by all nations. It certainly is a foundation of our American democracy.

But Christians throughout the world are suffering for their faith. In some societies they are discriminated against. In others they are not even allowed to meet for prayer, charity, or religious study. If they do meet, they may be harassed and beaten, their houses of worship assaulted. They may be detained, put in prison, tortured, or even killed. According to a Pew study, Christians face some form of harassment or persecution in two-thirds of the countries around the world!

One area where this is happening is in China. Our Catholic brothers and sisters who refuse to register with the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association, the official body sanctioned by the People’s Republic of China, form part of what is known as the “underground church.”

As difficult as it is for most Catholics to understand, Chinese government officials want a Catholic Church that is not in communion with the Holy Father, which, of course, is an oxymoron. They insist on independence from Rome and seek to control the religious activity of all Catholics in China. This includes where Catholics worship, how priests and religious are trained, and even who is ordained as bishop.

For a few years, there appeared to be some progress in the dialogue between the Holy See and the government of the People’s Republic of China. Some bishops were happily ordained with the agreement of both the Vatican and Chinese authorities. Back in 2007, Pope Benedict wrote a moving letter to the Catholics in China—who, while many are “underground,” were said to number close to 12 million—expressing not only love and solidarity, but much hope for progress and even cooperation and peace with civil officials.

However, recent illicit ordinations of three bishops by the Chinese Catholic Patriotic Association (CCPA), often taking place over explicit Vatican objections, have reversed that progress. To make matters worse, coercion was used.

Some bishops, who are in communion with the Holy Father, went into hiding to avoid these illicit ordinations, but other bishops were not so fortunate. They were taken by police and forced to attend and participate in the ordinations.

No wonder the Holy Father has expressed “pain and concern” over this turn of events. The Vatican has said such acts are “contrary to the unity of the universal Church.”

The three bishops just ordained by the CCPA are of course considered excommunicated by their actions. Lacking communion with the Universal Church and the Holy Father, they have no authority to govern dioceses. Imagine the dilemmas this will create for local Catholics striving to be faithful. As the heroic Cardinal Joseph Zen, the former archbishop of Hong Kong, just bluntly stated, the Chinese government is forcing the Catholics in China into schism. “Why should our brothers not be allowed to live peacefully their normal life of faith?”

So what can we do to support our brothers and sisters in Christ in China?

First and foremost, we can pray.

… ."

cardinalkungfoundation.org/articles/ArchdioceseNY-september-22-2011.htm

Statement above from Archbishop Dolan of NY.

I shall never believe "news" that is headlined "China says "sincere" with Vatican ahead of ordination."  It was not sincere (as always) and it placed an excommuincated bishop in attendance at the most recent approve ordination.

 

[catharina]

Catharina, I am aware of the Cardinal Kung Foundation. The “underground” Church has suffered greatly during the decades of Communist rule in China. But as the letter from Pope Benedict indicated, the underground bishops and priests are not the only legitimate Catholic clergy in China.

The Vatican has been walking a very careful course to bring the bishops and priests of the CPCA back into allegiance to the Holy See.

The Holy Father’s letter of 2007? Now it is 2011. As usual, China has lied.

from Zenit:

"Vatican Welcomes New Bishop Amid Controversy

Laments Participation of Excommunicated Prelate at Ordination

VATICAN CITY, **DEC. 1, 2011 **(Zenit.org).- As the Holy See welcomes the consecration of a bishop in China, it also expresses “disappointment and dismay” at the presence of an excommunicated bishop who has “aggravated his canonical position.”

Wednesday’s ordination of Bishop Peter Luo Xuegang, which took place with the approval of the Holy See, was met with controversy due to the presence of illegitimately ordained Bishop Paul Lei Shiyin. Lei, who was ordained a bishop last June to the diocese of Leshan, is one of three bishops to be recently ordained in China without sanction from the Church.

Lei’s presence at the ordination added fuel to an already existing tension between the Holy See and China. Although Church law states that the power to appoint or confirm the election of a bishop lies solely with the Pope, the Chinese government – which exercises control over the Catholic Church in China – considers this to be interference on the part of the Vatican.

In a Wednesday press conference, Vatican spokesperson Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi confirmed the Holy See’s approval of Bishop Luo’s ordination, while criticizing Lei’s presence at the ceremony. “After three recent episcopal ordinations without papal mandate,” he told journalists, “the fact of having a new bishop in communion with the Pope and all the Catholic bishops of the world is certainly positive. It will be appreciated not only by the Chinese bishops and faithful, but also by the universal Church. Instead, the participation of the illegitimate bishop, who – as is known – is in the canonical status of an excommunicated person, is not on the same line and gives rise to disagreement and confusion among the faithful, the more so because it appears that he took part as consecrating Bishop and concelebrated the Eucharist. His inveterate disobedience to the rules of the Church unfortunately aggravates his canonical position.”

At the same press conference, Father Lombardi stated that Lei should have been excluded altogether from the ceremony, as his presence would ordinarily have canonical consequences for the other attending bishops. He clarified, however, that “in this circumstance it is likely that they were unable to prevent it without great inconvenience. In any case, the Holy See will be able to better assess the question when it has received more extensive and in-depth information.”

Lombardi had stated previously that the norms of the Catholic Church would be followed in the ordination if the faithful were informed that the candidate had the approval of the Holy See, and that no “illegitimate bishop participates in the liturgical ceremony.”

zenit.org/rssenglish-33927

 

[Digitonomy]

This is not amtter of semantics. Digitonomy is correct.
The situation is one of long-standing schism.
There’s is no way to sweeten that pill.

It might enhance your knowledge if you look at the site
cardinalkungfoundation.org/
the advocate for the true, only and underground Catholic Church in China.

The Cardinal Kung Foundation has always been a little hard-core on this issue. But as Dale_M pointed out, clearly this is not a full and open schism, if the Church is cooperating with the CPCA in naming bishops. What would be the point in giving any veneer of legitimacy to such bishops, if the Vatican only recognized the underground Church?

 

[catharina]

Catharina, I am aware of the Cardinal Kung Foundation. The “underground” Church has suffered greatly during the decades of Communist rule in China. But as the letter from Pope Benedict indicated, the underground bishops and priests are not the only legitimate Catholic clergy in China.

The Vatican has been walking a very careful course to bring the bishops and priests of the CPCA back into allegiance to the Holy See.

One can be validly ordained and later become schismatic/excommunicated.
Totally common knowledge.

Yes, the Church always strives for unity and forgiveness
but not at the cost of supporting continued persecution of
the imprisoned and continuing martyrdom of countless
Chinese Catholics.

 

[catharina]

The Cardinal Kung Foundation has always been a little hard-core on this issue. But as Dale_M pointed out, clearly this is not a full and open schism, if the Church is cooperating with the CPCA in naming bishops. What would be the point in giving any veneer of legitimacy to such bishops, if the Vatican only recognized the underground Church?

The Vatican’s point is clearly an approach to validly ordained Chinese priests
who have been coopted by the patriotic “church.” It is the pursuit of lost souls
that drives the Catholic Church - just as our mother, the Church sought to re-claim
the soul of M. Lefebvre prior to his death. It is the same issue.

However it remains clear that in taking this approach, the Church puts at likely
greater risk those faithful Catholics who were able to remain above-ground. Now
in the interest of evangelization and personal safety, some will more formally be
required to move underground. It is an (so far) endless tragedy. Martyrs are
meant to be martyred. It is their vocation. The Holy Father knows this and
Chinese Catholics know it. That does NOT make it simple or easy.

Repeating: I will never believe any announcement by China
or by its patriotic “church” movement. Both are built on lies.

The Vatican only recognizes faithful Catholics above or underground.
The Vatican does NOT recognize the patriotic “church” group.
It does recognize that some of the priests in that group were validly ordained.
They are recognized as individuals, for that reason.

I can’t state it any more simply.

 

[catharina]

Also recent, from

“Vatican’s top ecumenist assesses ecumenical progress, future prospects”

" …

In a separate interview with Catholic News Service during a visit to the headquarters of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops before the talk, Cardinal Koch said American Catholics — like other Catholics around the world — need to demonstrate greater solidarity with their fellow Christians who face persecution, especially in the Middle East and China.

Harkening back to an address he delivered in Munich in September, the cardinal said 80 percent of all those persecuted because of religion today are Christians, leading to the possibility of a new “ecumenism of martyrs” among Christians of all denominations.

… ."

catholicfreepress.org/vatican/2011/11/07/vaticans-top-ecumenist-assesses-ecumenical-progress-future-prospects/

The persecution of Christians - especially Catholics - in China has never lessened.

 

[catharina]

Also recent, from asiaNews.it:

11/26/2011 11:16
VATICAN - CHINA
Religious freedom for China’s future
by Bernardo Cervellera

asianews.it/news-en/Religious-freedom-for-China’s-future-23284.html

’ …

Beijing’s stronghold on religious freedom is even more incomprehensible, its controls and its contempt towards the pope and the Catholic faith. Only a few months ago - in June and July - there were two Episcopal ordinations in Leshan (Sichuan) and Shantou (Guangdong), carried out against the will of the Holy See, with bishops deliberately seized to force them to participate in an act contrary to their faith and bond of communion with the pope.

The point is that a dictatorship can not permit the luxury of allowing even the minimum amount of space slip beyond its control. For this reason, one’s relationship with God, with the pope, prayers to the Dalai Lama, the exhibition of his photos are considered subversive elements. China knows that religious freedom is a small path from which respect for the person and all human rights flows. Therefore, the liberalization of religion signifies undertaking political reforms inside and outside the party, which has promised more reforms, but has never kept those promises, preferring instead to support a rule of law of corruption, anarchy and tyranny.

… ."

 

[incense]

I think it is more accurate to say the Holy See is trying to heal a schism that has been present to greater and lesser degrees over the past 60 years.

Actually, it goes back hundreds of years earlier when the Vatican rejected the recommendation of the Chinese Bishop to let them worship in their own language and forced them to use Latin. The Emperor was incensed and suspicious and kicked out the Catholic Church. The Vatican was more worried about the protestant reformation at the time and sacrificed the Chinese Catholics best interests.

A friend just spent a year in China. He said that they had adoration after every mass and that every person stayed. Don’t be too critical of the Catholicism of those in China.

 

[catharina]

Actually, it goes back hundreds of years earlier when the Vatican rejected the recommendation of the Chinese Bishop to let them worship in their own language and forced them to use Latin. The Emperor was incensed and suspicious and kicked out the Catholic Church. The Vatican was more worried about the protestant reformation at the time and sacrificed the Chinese Catholics best interests.

A friend just spent a year in China. He said that they had adoration after every mass and that every person stayed. Don’t be too critical of the Catholicism of those in China.

Hmmmmm. Not quite.
The historical facts are so easily available that I’ll quote from wiki.
Although if I had the time, both the Jesuits and Dominicans have the same facts archived.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Rites_controversy

Chinese Rites Controversy

"The Chinese Rites controversy was a dispute within the Catholic Church from the 1630s to the early 18th century[1] about whether Chinese folk religion rites and offerings to the emperor constituted idolatry. Pope Clement XI decided in favor of the Dominicans (who argued that Chinese folk religion and offerings to the emperor were incompatible with Catholicism), which greatly reduced Catholic missionary activity in China.

It was related to larger controversies between the Dominicans and Jesuits over the adoption of local practices of other countries, such as the ascetic brahmin practices of India.[citation needed]

Pope Pius XII modified his predecessor’s decision in 1939."

same source:

"… The Rites controversy continued to hamper Church efforts to gain converts in China. In 1939, a few weeks after his election to the papacy, Pope Pius XII ordered the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples to relax certain aspects of Clement XI’s and Benedict XIV’s decrees. After the Apostolic Vicars had received guarantees from the Manchukuo Government that confirmed the mere “civil” characteristics of the so called “chinese rites”, the Holy See released, on Dec. 8th 1939, a new decree, known as “Plane Compertum”, stating that:

Catholics are permitted to be present at ceremonies in honor of Confucius in Confucian temples or in schools.

Erection of an image of Confucius or tablet with his name on is permitted in Catholic schools.

Catholic magistrates and students are permitted to passively attend public ceremonies which have the appearance of superstition.

It is licit and unobjectionable for head inclinations and other manifestations of civil observance before the deceased or their images.

The oath on the Chinese rites, which was prescribed by Benedict XIV, is not fully in accord with recent regulations and is superfluous.

This meant that Chinese customs were no longer considered superstitious, but were an honourable way of esteeming one’s relatives and therefore permitted by Catholic Christians.[18] Confucianism was also thus recognized as a philosophy and an integral part of Chinese culture rather than as a heathen religion in conflict with Catholicism. Shortly afterwards, in 1943, the Government of China established diplomatic relations with the Vatican. The Papal decree changed the ecclesiastical situation in China in an almost revolutionary way.[19] As the Church began to flourish, Pius XII established a local ecclesiastical hierarchy, and, in 1946, named Archbishop Thomas Tien Ken-sin (田耕莘) SVD, as the first Chinese national, to the Sacred College of Cardinals.[19] and later appointed him to the See of Peking."

IOW, in the 1600s the Jesuits sought special permission for such things as ancestor worship.  Yet the Dominicans sided against the Jesuits' petitions.  In the end the Holy Father of the time agreed with the Domincans.  At once, the current Emperor of China Kangxi (who had tolerated Catholicism until then) now outlawed the Faith.  

(Much more on wiki.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is of great importance to note that Catholicism had flourished in China since the 1940s.  It was the reign of Communism (1949) that again outlawed the Catholic Faith.  All property of the Church (churches, convents, monasteries, schools and seminaries) was taken over by the Communist party.  Prior to that, free travel existed with many Chinese seminarians going to Rome for their education - even being ordained at order of the Vatican as they finished their studies in Rome.  This is no longer the case.  There has been NO religious freedom in China since 1949.

 

[catharina]

Actually, it goes back hundreds of years earlier when the Vatican rejected the recommendation of the Chinese Bishop to let them worship in their own language and forced them to use Latin. The Emperor was incensed and suspicious and kicked out the Catholic Church. The Vatican was more worried about the protestant reformation at the time and sacrificed the Chinese Catholics best interests.

A friend just spent a year in China. He said that they had adoration after every mass and that every person stayed. Don’t be too critical of the Catholicism of those in China.

I’ve known of several friends who have served recently in China.
Yet to do so, they entered China in secular dress without any papers
documenting themselves as priests/religious.

The Church in China (the CATHOLIC Church) is alive and suffering as
it has been since 1949. I have never heard anyone criticize its faithfulness
or its miraculous service to the Church. As recently as June 2, 1996, another
priest-martyr who gave his life to the Church in China was canonized.

Pope John Paul II headed the canoniztion ceremonies. The saint
(St John Gabriel Perboyre) was a native of France and a Vincentian priest.
(Vincentions are also known by their community name: Congregation of
the Mission.) John Gabriel entered China like so many others, dressed in
secular attire as a Chinese peasant. He survived for five years in the missions
of China, then was captured and crucified in 1839.

filles-de-la-charite.org/en/st_john-gabriel_perboyre.aspx

Really, who is criticizing the faithful Catholics of China?

 

[JaMc]

It seems to me like the Vatican is trying to show compassion for faithful Catholics who do not want to place their families at risk and, thus, participate in the Patriotic Association, even though they truly believe in the authority of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. But, at the same time, the Vatican is supporting the “underground” Church, and does not want to risk giving the Patriotic Association too much of an air of legitimacy or authority.

A very difficult position. We can only hope and pray that God gives the Vatican officials in charge of these dealings all of the skill, wisdom, diplomacy, and courage that can be mustered up in handling this situation.

 

[catharina]

It seems to me like the Vatican is trying to show compassion for faithful Catholics who do not want to place their families at risk and, thus, participate in the Patriotic Association, even though they truly believe in the authority of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. But, at the same time, the Vatican is supporting the “underground” Church, and does not want to risk giving the Patriotic Association too much of an air of legitimacy or authority.

A very difficult position. We can only hope and pray that God gives the Vatican officials in charge of these dealings all of the skill, wisdom, diplomacy, and courage that can be mustered up in handling this situation.

Most specifically, the Vatican is reaching out to its own validly ordained priests,
those who have been swalled up by the Patriotic church. The Vatican will NEVER
legitimatize the patriotic group because it can’t be done. All priest-members of
the patriotic group have been excommunicated. The group itself exists in schism.

The Vatican is in support of the “undergound” Church only.
The other organization can not be supported by the Vatican or by any faithful Catholic.