"Choice" Is....

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Wow. I’ve been following this post to get new perspectives. I started with the premise that nasty disgusting photos that appeal to emotion and not intellect should not be shown, especially since I shy away from shameless shock-type forms of “debate.” I was actually starting to see some value in grisly murder pictures. I was starting to change my mind on the use of such photos in general.

There is a lot going on in my mind, but first, are we debating an issue or calling people names? I ended up angry at pro-life people after reading this, both sides. What sticks in mind right now - if someone questions a way of fighting something, and someone else decides that means you are “no different than” Nazi Germany, it gives me instant sympathy for the one questioning. And I think we should always be willing to examine the methods used - we are Catholic and the ends don’t justify the means - i.e., just because something works doesn’t mean it’s right.
 
vern_humphrey said:
Amazing! The anger and disgust is not directed at the people who killed those children – instead those who show the evidence of those grisly crimes are blamed!!:eek:
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I didn’t mean that to come across as angry. It was more factual, to me. Maybe I should have put a smilie face after it.🙂
 
proudnifi said:
Nazi Germany, it gives me instant sympathy for the one questioning. And I think we should always be willing to examine the methods used - we are Catholic and the ends don’t justify the means - i.e., just because something works doesn’t mean it’s right.
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Depending upon how the pictures were obtained there is nothing imoral about using them. Now if you killed the kids to get the pictures that’s pretty bad and wrong, but that’s not how they got them.

With a sleeping culture you sometimes have to wake them up. Maybe some of us are disgusted because we feel we haven’t done enough. I know I feel that way. Fr. Frank Pavone had a good article on the graphic pictures and why they are needed. I tried to link to Priest’s for Life website just now but I couldn’t get there.
 
I’m the leader and founder of our campus pro-life group, which is small now, but I hope to help it grow. I’ve struggled with this issue myself: to show the pictures, or not. I have come up with what I think is an acceptable compromise: I will print off some of these pictures, then place them in an opaque binder to have whenever we have an event. Then, people can choose whether or not to look at them.

Pictures will not change everyone’s mind. My former roommate had seen pictures of aborted babies before, and yet was staunchly pro-choice. I’m intending to have many, many more pictures of a baby’s development, so that people can see that it is a tiny HUMAN BEING that will be torn apart. The ‘it’s just a lump of cells’ argument falls apart when I tell people that the heart is already beating around the time most women get a positive pregnancy test.(give or take a couple of days, of course)
 
proudnifi said:
Wow. I’ve been following this post to get new perspectives. I started with the premise that nasty disgusting photos that appeal to emotion and not intellect should not be shown, especially since I shy away from shameless shock-type forms of “debate.” I was actually starting to see some value in grisly murder pictures. I was starting to change my mind on the use of such photos in general.

There is a lot going on in my mind, but first, are we debating an issue or calling people names? I ended up angry at pro-life people after reading this, both sides. What sticks in mind right now - if someone questions a way of fighting something, and someone else decides that means you are “no different than” Nazi Germany, it gives me instant sympathy for the one questioning. And I think we should always be willing to examine the methods used - we are Catholic and the ends don’t justify the means - i.e., just because something works doesn’t mean it’s right.
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(My emphasis)
And just because something doesn’t work doesn’t mean it’s right.

Our calling is not just to “feel good” about ourselves, but rather to put an end to this grisly crime. If it works, those who claim it’s somehow wrong must shoulder the burden of proof – they must show that displaying such pictures is a greater wrong that killing the children in the first place.
 
I was a tourist in FL a few years ago with my children. I wasn’t able to comprehend a detour around the “pictures” and ended up with my children seeing them. My special needs child flipped out. I did not appreciate the decision as a parent of what and when this is presented to my child taken away from me. To this day, I cannot visit my family in FL due to his aversion to the whole state. My “normal” children were asking questions and were disgusted against the people who commit abortion, but they were also disgusted with the people who showed the images. It really screwed up the handicapped child and the trickle down to the rest has been tough.
It has taken alot of time/energy/money helping him with his needs that would have been used in other ways for the rest of the family. So I really don’t appreciate having to divert more of the same and shortchange the family to help him with the graphic display. In his logic, he should “kill” all the abortion providers to stop the babies being killed. He doesn’t think that anyone should do that to babies. In his illness, he can no longer see the abortion provider as alive and human.
I am sure that in all the cars going by that day, there were a few other people like him reacting the same way. It was probably a small percentage, but the fall out could be huge.
Some children are not mature enough to comprehend the images and that is why they are children and not “mature adults”.

I am against abortion no matter what, but still reserve the right as a parent that I choose when and where images like this are showen to my children.
 
vern_humphrey said:
(My emphasis)
And just because something doesn’t work doesn’t mean it’s right.

Our calling is not just to “feel good” about ourselves, but rather to put an end to this grisly crime. If it works, those who claim it’s somehow wrong must shoulder the burden of proof – they must show that displaying such pictures is a greater wrong that killing the children in the first place.
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I don’t recall anyone on the thread suggesting that only ineffective methods be used or that ineffective methods were good because they’re ineffective.

According to the Catechism, the end does not justify the means. One may never do evil so that good may result from it. Even though abortion needs to be eradicated, we can’t choose any method we like (or don’t like) because it works. Nor can we choose one that works and is less wrong than another method. There is no allowance to choose the least wrong method - we can only use good methods.

I have come to consider the possibility that graphic images of death can be useful in some situations. To allow/enable small children to see such images (especially against parental wishes) is wrong.
 
disgusting? yes.
uncomfortable? yes.
something we don’t like to see? yes.
REALITY?! YES.

How well has the ‘mild’ slogans gotten through to society about abortion? I would say not too well. I know many who are voting for a politician due to the fact that they stand for pro-choice, much less voting for them even though they do.

I truly feel that when a child sees that they will question why that is there and then it is the RESPONSIBILITY of the pro-life parents to explain what it means. Because one day your son or daughter may have the choice to support or have an abortion and they will think back to when they saw the REALITY of what it is and when you, their parent, explained why its so bad.

If you sugarcoat your pro-life slogans, pro-choicers will sugarcoat their decision.

JUST MY OPINION.

edit-
joab said:
I was a tourist in FL a few years ago with my children. I wasn’t able to comprehend a detour around the “pictures” and ended up with my children seeing them. My special needs child flipped out. I did not appreciate the decision as a parent of what and when this is presented to my child taken away from me. To this day, I cannot visit my family in FL due to his aversion to the whole state. My “normal” children were asking questions and were disgusted against the people who commit abortion, but they were also disgusted with the people who showed the images. It really screwed up the handicapped child and the trickle down to the rest has been tough.
It has taken alot of time/energy/money helping him with his needs that would have been used in other ways for the rest of the family. So I really don’t appreciate having to divert more of the same and shortchange the family to help him with the graphic display. In his logic, he should “kill” all the abortion providers to stop the babies being killed. He doesn’t think that anyone should do that to babies. In his illness, he can no longer see the abortion provider as alive and human.
I am sure that in all the cars going by that day, there were a few other people like him reacting the same way. It was probably a small percentage, but the fall out could be huge.
Some children are not mature enough to comprehend the images and that is why they are children and not “mature adults”.

I am against abortion no matter what, but still reserve the right as a parent that I choose when and where images like this are showen to my children.
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now that is one of the times when it may be unfortunate for a child to see it. But, I believe its not meant for the pro-lifers, its meant to shock the pro-choicers into caring, because it seems like nothing is working to get the message to them. but, i hear ya on your concern. alot of times the pro-choice people are able to just stay away from all the venues that pro-life slogans and adverts are being distributed, so i suppose this is just a way to reach everyone.
 
proudnifi said:
I don’t recall anyone on the thread suggesting that only ineffective methods be used or that ineffective methods were good because they’re ineffective.
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Then we are in agreement. We should do what it takes, regardless of how Politically Correct it is.
proudnifi said:
According to the Catechism, the end does not justify the means. One may never do evil so that good may result from it.
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Are you saying it is morally wrong to show pictures of aborted children? Where in the Catechism do you find that?
proudnifi said:
Even though abortion needs to be eradicated, we can’t choose any method we like (or don’t like) because it works. Nor can we choose one that works and is less wrong than another method. There is no allowance to choose the least wrong method - we can only use good methods.
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Just where are we ‘morally wrong’ to show people the reality of abortion?
proudnifi said:
I have come to consider the possibility that graphic images of death can be useful in some situations. To allow/enable small children to see such images (especially against parental wishes) is wrong.
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In your opinion. But absent a definitive prohibition by the Church you cannot say it is morally wrong.
 
I just read Ed’s previous post and it made me think of the fact that some people say it is wrong to show those photos.
  1. If something is WRONG then it is a sin.
  2. Showing the TRUTH is NEVER a SIN
  3. Hiding the TRUTH is ALWAYS a SIN
  4. I would say it is more then a venial sin to HIDE the TRUTH when showing that TRUTH saves LIVES
 
vern_humphrey said:
Amazing! The anger and disgust is not directed at the people who killed those children – instead those who show the evidence of those grisly crimes are blamed!!:eek:
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agreed
If abortion didn’t exist…those photos wouldn’t either.🤷
 
bmmckinney said:
If you are interested in exactly what those photos do to apathetic and proabortion people who don’t get converted watch these 2 clips… its interesting to say the least!:

These are both parts of my national prolife movie:

youtube.com/watch?v=gLys9lEUQMY
youtube.com/watch?v=62XmMHj5_7k
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WOW!!! I can understand their sentiments…but do they not realize that abortion created those pics…not the people carrying them?? I don’t agree/disagree with the showing of these pics…but I do think that if doctors and Planned Parenthood are going to lie to women about the devestation of their ‘choice,’ then people should see what that choice results in…😦

When good becomes evil, and evil is looked at as good for society…is when the end times are coming.
 
Whatevergirl,

Pretty powerful stuff isn’t it? You are right, if we do nothing it is the end.

If you are interested in the whole movie I made go to youtube.com/profile?user=cbrinfo the parts are all in order.

God Bless,

Bryan
 
I agree that the pictures are educating and necessary. I think that it is a good idea to show them to adults and, in particular to woman attending clinics. My daughter was exposed to pictures such as these at a Christian worship event when she was only 4 years old. SHe had recuring nightmares for several weeks that followed and worried that that is what would happen to her. She could not make the distinction between before a baby is born or a child who had already been born. We did do what many of the posters here suggested - we explained it to her! But she was too young to understand. She did not have that capacity and nothing would change that. We were very distressed by the fact that she was so traumatized. My question is “was it appropriate to show pictures like that at a christian, family, worship event?” I would suggest that it was wrong! Wrong place, wrong audience!
 
Linnyo,

That worship place was the perfect location to show those photos. Today there is no statistical difference between a catholic, protestant, jew, and athiest in the numbers or incidences of abortion.

Why is it that this child in this photo wasn’t traumatized? markharringtonlive.com/gallery/album33/aaq

It’s because the mother was able to properly educate the child. Your child was only upset because you weren’t able to put it in the right terms for them.

To do so is simple:

***There are mean and selfish people in this world who will hurt children and even babies while they are still inside of their mommies. But because I love you very much I would NEVER allow that to ever happen to you. The people who show those pictures love babies very much, as much as I love you, and those pictures help save babies when their mommies might hurt them.
See how simple that is? Children have functioning consciences. Most gradeschool children support abortion because it is the hip or popular thing to do from the internet or friends or whatever. If a child is young enough to hear that they are young enough to be shown the reality, not showing these photos has and will continue to lead to countless deaths in our world. There is only one possible solution, upset people enough about the reality of abortion that they come together and do something about abortion.

The question we have to ask ourselves is do we care more about the feelings of born children, or the lives of unborn children who will die from an abortion.
 
Easy now having been told what to say to a child that sees these images but many mothers would be unable to find the right words when confronted with unexpected campaigners and a child that is screaming from the horror they have just seen. I still think that outside the clinics is the best place for campaining or even in colleges and universities. How do you know that the child in the pictures hadn’t been traumatised - he may have seen the pictures everyday on his way to school - desensitised maybe. My child had not expected to see these pictures and to have people shouting. It is scary for a 4 year old and I was made to feel unprepared and inadequate (and for the record, I was on the same side as the campaigners and am an educated person. I am usually articulate and I consider myself to be a caring, loving mother). That is NOT the way to educate - that was intimidation. Anyway, my 4 year old is not going to be wanting an aborttion anyway - it wasn’t age appropriate education. It is up to the parents when to teach that to their children and I would teach it just prior to puberty. That should be MY choice!

Also, my husband and I are very active in teaching our kids right and wrong regardless of what secular society says. We withdrew our eldest from school sex ed because they were not teaching the morals that go along with the mechanics of sex. The school curriculum would have undermined what we were teachin about saving sex till marrainge and contraception. So we explained what the school was teaching and why we were making a stand against that. But again, our teaching has been done with love and firmness at an age-appropriate time. This is vital to her development as a young woman.
bmmckinney said:
Linnyo,

That worship place was the perfect location to show those photos. Today there is no statistical difference between a catholic, protestant, jew, and athiest in the numbers or incidences of abortion.

Why is it that this child in this photo wasn’t traumatized? markharringtonlive.com/gallery/album33/aaq

It’s because the mother was able to properly educate the child. Your child was only upset because you weren’t able to put it in the right terms for them.

To do so is simple:

There are mean and selfish people in this world who will hurt children and even babies while they are still inside of their mommies. But because I love you very much I would NEVER allow that to ever happen to you. The people who show those pictures love babies very much, as much as I love you, and those pictures help save babies when their mommies might hurt them.

See how simple that is? Children have functioning consciences. Most gradeschool children support abortion because it is the hip or popular thing to do from the internet or friends or whatever. If a child is young enough to hear that they are young enough to be shown the reality, not showing these photos has and will continue to lead to countless deaths in our world. There is only one possible solution, upset people enough about the reality of abortion that they come together and do something about abortion.

The question we have to ask ourselves is do we care more about the feelings of born children, or the lives of unborn children who will die from an abortion.
Click to expand...
 
Linnyo,

I am glad you see that the explanation I gave you was a good one. We agree on much more then we disagree. However I can speak from direct knowledge of many children who were not at all traumatized about the photos. In 2004 for 16 weeks I and many other people drove around the CBR trucks all over the country. We stayed with prolife families everywhere we went. Most of whom had very young children. I was never around when any of the children were told about abortion from their parents but instead of being upset when the familes and other people we met would follow us or drive around our trucks in their hometowns the young children as young as 2 or 3 would be waving and smiling to us from the cars. They understood from whatever their parents told them.

My question for you specifically is how did you react in front of your child? An angry parent will cause their children to be upset but if a parent tells their child those are people who save babies that’s all I think it takes.

I’m glad you agree that these photos should be used at clinics many people who are more profeelings then prolife don’t think they should be used there.

I’m certainly not desensitived to these photos and I thought awhile back I was. I see them everyday whether it is making my movie or doing other work on my computer. It is still hard to take and sometimes I do cry still.

Here is the automated or part of the answering machine of the group that uses these photos:

***“If you are calling to express a concern that small children are being exposed to our aborted baby photos, please be advised that large numbers of pregnant women have told us that nothing less shocking than our pictures would have sufficed to dissuade them from killing their unborn children. Most women would never see these photos were we not to display them in public on our truck and aircraft billboards.
We readily admit that where we exhibit these pictures, born children are upset. But it must also be said that where we don’t show them, unborn children are killed. While we would never use our photos to target, for instance, an elementary school, it is impossible to display our signs in any public venue which is always free of children. If you believe that allowing born children to be disturbed is worse than allowing unborn children to be butchered – you are not “pro-life” so much as you are pro-feelings.

(slide 42, standing on baracades)

Even if we assume that you are among the very few parents whose homes have neither televisions or newspapers, unless you are raising your children in a cave, they are seeing bloody images of killed and wounded soldiers on the covers of news magazines almost every time you take them past the magazine racks which flank the checkout lines at countless supermarkets. The covers of these publications also display photos of airliners crashing into skyscrapers and the injured victims of terror attacks, criminal assaults, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcano’s and tornados. Parents seldom complain when their children see photos of victims of violent death – unless that violent death was caused by an abortion. We refuse to accept this totally disingenuous double standard.

If you called to tell us that you oppose abortion but want to complain that aborted baby photos are hurting the pro-life cause, you are greatly mistaken. The entire history of social reform is characterized by examples of the hurtful images which have been used to dramatize injustice and shock the conscience of the culture. No great injustice is ever outlawed until the public is forced to change its collective mind concerning the humanity of the victim and the inhumanity of his victimization. Not slavery, not child labor, not civil rights abuses or any other systematic oppression. Effective reformers are seldom popular. Popular reformers are seldom effective. We don’t care what people think of us. We care what they think of abortion.***
 
I think it’s the adult reaction to the pictures that’s causing all the controversy. And I agree that a negative reaction by an adult can cause a child problems.

But for myself, if one of my grand daughters (1 and 4 yeas old) saw such a sign, the first thing I would do is listen to them. They may not ask any questions at all. But if they did, I would say something like, “There are people who kill children before they are born. These people are trying to stop those bad people, and they are showing pictures of the babies who have been killed so we will all know what a bad thing has happened.”
 
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