Choir Conundrum

[casslean]

Secondly, we have a right to ask our Pastor to sing at church, we have a right to be answered in a respectful manner, and we have a right to be treated equally to other groups in the church.

You have a right to ask.

You have a right to be answered in a respectful manner.

You have no right to be treated “equally” (I’m not even sure what that means).

The pastor makes the final call. If he decides that the Men’s Choir gets precedence and your family group does not he has every right to do that (is this just your wife singing solo? Or just your family? Because I think my pastor would oppose that as well if it wasn’t a group that the wider church community was welcome to join). Frankly, I would suggest that a little more attitude of cooperation might be called for here, rather than just figuring out how to complain up the ladder to get what you want.

 

[TheLittleLady]

He absolutely hates the Men’s Choir.

Wow. Hope you are using hyperbole here.

 

[Horton]

First off, the Priest wants things changed as much as we do. He absolutely hates the Men’s Choir.

Secondly, we have a right to ask our Pastor to sing at church, we have a right to be answered in a respectful manner, and we have a right to be treated equally to other groups in the church. If our Pastor does not treat us with respect, or if he is treating others with preference over us, then we can and should appeal to our Bishop, or to Rome if need be.

So who is it you want serve? Your ego or God? In reading through this it seems you want to serve your ego. The idea you would even take this to your Bishop or Rome is certainly showing more about you than you may want shown.

 

[emesine]

We’re off topic at this point. I needed a few pointers on how to deal with church politics with respect to getting a chance to sing mass. This is more of a discussion on the role of the laity of the church with respect to the authority of the church hierarchy.

I appreciate all of your (name removed by moderator)ut on my original topic, and I have received what I need. At this point I am going to stop following this discussion.

Thanks all for your responses!

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

If the priest really wanted them gone, they would already have been gone. The problem is, that probably the price of getting rid of them is too high.

Don’t underestimate the difficulty of small-town politics + parish politics! Not pretty!

Just out of curiosity - - what kind of trained singer is your wife?

 

[MikeInVA]

G.K. Chesterton has a saying about tearing down fences:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.”

So why has there been a men-only choir for over 100 years?

 

[pianistclare]

IF there is no Director, then its the priest’s call. Have her sing fro him, and ask if there can be a scheduled opportunity for cantoring.
I’ll wager he’ll jump at the chance.

If not, she can some and join my choir, LOL

 

[Phemie]

I attend a small parish in a small town, with one Mass on Sunday. We do not have a music director. There is a men’s only choir that has been in existence since the mid 1800s. They sing every Sunday throughout the winter, and every feast day.

My wife is a trained singer, and she wants to sing- not just summers (the days the men’s choir does not want) but all year and on feast days. Being a woman, she is not eligible for the men’s choir. She has asked for the opportunity of singing for a few Sundays, but the Men’s choir is unwilling to share any of “their” Sundays.

There are two issues, really. 1. Anyone who is interested should be allowed to sing for Sundays and feasts. 2. It is wrong that women have zero opportunity to sing Sundays and feasts.

We are working to get the situation changed, but are expecting a significant fight. Can anyone suggest how we should approach our Bishop, if that becomes necessary? Is there an office of women’s rights at the USCCB? Is there an office of Women’s rights at the Vatican?

Can anyone offer me some guidance?

Thanks!

No one has a “right” to be in ministry. If you start to think that you should have a right to sing, or read, or be an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion then you have to think again.

That said, the only person who can help you in this is the Pastor and if he’s not willing to I don’t think there is much you can do. He leads the parish and if he feels that it would be for the good of the parish to have another choir or a mixed choir it is for him to initiate the change.

 

[Calliope]

This situation is about fairness, but it bears mentioning that this choir is absolutely terrible, actually painful to listen to. My daughters have started bringing earplugs to mass. Again, the point here is fairness, not the quality of the music, but I want to make sure it is clear we are not trying to take down a venerable an beautiful choral tradition

I hope you are kidding about this. Earplugs at Mass? That’s really rude and disrespectful and is unlikely to garner any good will or support for your cause.

 

[Dlee]

This situation is about fairness, but it bears mentioning that this choir is absolutely terrible, actually painful to listen to. My daughters have started bringing earplugs to mass. Again, the point here is fairness, n ot the quality of the music, but I want to make sure it is clear we are not trying to take down a venerable an beautiful choral tradition.

Ouch! Earplugs are wrong and disrespectful. My advise would be to seek humility and not seek “fairness.” Fairness does not belong in faith or any religion. It is not fair that Christ died for our sins. It doesn’t matter to our Lord if the choir is absolutely terrible. He loves it, we should, too. Accept the authority of your priest, not your own desires.

 

[rondirect]

This situation is about fairness, but it bears mentioning that this choir is absolutely terrible, actually painful to listen to. My daughters have started bringing earplugs to mass. Again, the point here is fairness, not the quality of the music, but I want to make sure it is clear we are not trying to take down a venerable an beautiful choral tradition

I hope you are kidding about this. Earplugs at Mass? That’s really rude and disrespectful and is unlikely to garner any good will or support for your cause.

I really wanted to stay far away from this one. In my position for over 35 years now part time (and music directors and music ministers here know what part time means: 39 hours vs. 40!), I’ve definitely had my share of those who wish to part of, but also argue the validity or what is right or wrong. I have found that every husband who has a wife that can sing will stick by them and say that they are the best. I have found that if some don’t get their way, it’s a beeline to the pastor to complain. I have found that they are never happy with what is going on in the church musically, but insist on staying instead of moving on to another church that might support them. To say let the men do their winter thing and you do the summer thing is not good enough. Wanting half the pie is not the agenda; the whole pie is, but that is still not “fair.” Why would anyone stay in a church as a musical person and criticize the music and stay and even allow their children to wear ear plugs?

I mean to be respectful, but there must be some give and take here. Take the summer and if the congregation likes it, just perhaps the community will make enough noise to the pastor that history will change without it being your doing.

 

[Ridgerunner]

In terms of prayer, God’s answer has been extremely simple. Fight

Oh? Did He tell you this in a dream, or did he appear to you in broad daylight? I truly don’t recall seeing “fairness” in the ten commandments.

I want to make sure it is clear we are not trying to take down a venerable an beautiful choral tradition.

That’s exactly what you will be doing.

There has to be a better way here.

 

[Ridgerunner]

If not, she can some and join my choir, LOL

There’s something to this. For years I resisted joining any choir, though I enjoyed singing as part of the congregation, and was asked a number of times to join one of two choirs. One of our two parishes opted, at a point, for guitar-accompanied folk type singing. The other one has a more traditional choir, but with a choir director who is pretty effective in mixing the new with the old.

Eventually, I let the latter of the two persuade me. I wouldn’t have dreamed of trying to change what the former was singing, and if my current choir director decides she no longer wants a Basso Profundo, all she has to do is say it, I’ll thank her for allowing me to sing previously, and I’m gone.

 

[rondirect]

If not, she can some and join my choir, LOL

Clare: I know you jest. We share the same issues. I think you know enough to read between the lines on this one. It reminds me of some I had who’s agenda was to sing, but had something to say about every note, every syncopated measure, every person, every Mass, every rehearsal, every composer’s “incorrectly written” score. Enough said.

 

[pianistclare]

Yes dear.
I just lost a [pretty good tenor because he was angry I changed the value of a note. He reads the scores on his ipad and could not make the edit, so he got very angry. It was either change half note to a dotted quarter or have the choir pass out after the ridiculously long phrase.
He got indignant and left.

He had had many run-ins with the pastor and I defended his quirkiness to same a good singing voice.
He never seemed to acknowledge THAT though.
Oh well. There’s plenty of SAT octavos.
I have a young fabulous (David Phelp’s fabulous type) tenor returning to the choir in 18 months. He’s working at Catholic U right now, but the job is temporary.

So things will get better. I try not to worry.
The people that are genuine last and last.

God bless you, May St. Cecilia be near to you always.

 

[MrsAngelala]

In terms of prayer, God’s answer has been extremely simple. Fight. I’ve put you here specifically to change this situation.

Hm. When I’m in a situation where I want something, and I think God tells me to fight for it, I’ve become very, very cautious about making sure it’s actually God speaking, and not just my own desires. Your posts are awfully harsh and aggressive. I mean this with all respect, but the tone of your statements doesn’t sound like the Holy Spirit to me.

Truly, I question anyone who claims a “right” to sing at Mass. And I am a woman who holds the highest level of cantor certification in the country, but hasn’t worked as a cantor at my own church in two years. If anyone had a “right” to sing, it would be me. But I am aware I don’t have any “rights,” no matter that I am among the best-educated and most capable in the country. That might be worth considering. I’m simply sitting still and being very quiet while the ministry disintegrates, just as I - gently - warned. No fight here. No rights.

 

[pnewton]

and we have a right to be treated equally to other groups in the church.

This is confusing the Church with secular government. You can spin your wheels, but you will accomplish nothing as there is no right. All decisions on the liturgy are under the bishop, with no appeal. Almost all bishops allow the priest to make these decisions. I have never heard of this being an issue for choir, but sometimes people have made the same argument over altar servers, and it is simply not a valid argument.

I will say that if someone approached me with such demands and with the same criticisms (earplugs???), I would be hesitant to accommodate such a one, not that I wouldn’t. I am not a big fan of bad music, but malcontent at Mass is worse the the worst singer. Humility before God is better than talent before God.

As a compromise, I would probably allow some one to participate (only) for a while before asking them to take roles of responsibility, just to be sure they were a team player. I would also try and help them if they did have an issue of ego (not saying you do), as spiritual exhortation is more important that musical direction, for me.

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

Is the thing about not having rights to serve official or is it some sort of popular idea?

 

[pianistclare]

I think everyone should have the opportunity to serve in a capacity in which they are capable, trained, and ready to take direction.

I permit plenty of people in the choir that are “iffy” because I don’t like to refuse a person who really wants to be there. The people who are very ill equipped or can’t carry a tune, soon realize they are not up to par nd bow out due to the difficulty of the music, or I make them page turners, LOL A good page turner is worth his/her weight in gold.
Most people want to do their best, and are sincere, I have found.
Being welcoming is a good thing for parishes. And anyway, I decide what we sing, and who stands in the front.
A director has to be able to manage their people without hurting feelings.

 

[pianistclare]

You will fin people here who don’t like lay persons doing anything Hence, those kinds of remarks.
It’s fine.
Those of us who are laypersons entrusted with much at the parish level just ignore them. After all, it’s the clergy who hired us!
God bless.