Choir Conundrum

[rondirect]

I think everyone should have the opportunity to serve in a capacity in which they are capable, trained, and ready to take direction.

I permit plenty of people in the choir that are “iffy” because I don’t like to refuse a person who really wants to be there. The people who are very ill equipped or can’t carry a tune, soon realize they are not up to par nd bow out due to the difficulty of the music, or I make them page turners, LOL A good page turner is worth his/her weight in gold.

Most people want to do their best, and are sincere, I have found.

Being welcoming is a good thing for parishes. And anyway, I decide what we sing, and who stands in the front.

A director has to be able to manage their people without hurting feelings.

Forgot to respond to you on this one and say that I totally agree. There is one thing though: no matter how I have tried to “manage” some, even with the upmost kindness and praise, people are people with different sensitivity levels and get hurt regardless of what you say or do. I can cite a few over the years.

The cantors I have now (emphasis on "now!) range from learn on their own to need a little help. But, all are not divas, but look at their responsibility as a gift, one they are willing to share with another cantor if they know they cannot handle the Psalm correctly, which might equate to some other posts here as well.

 

[dshix]

I cannot agree with the OP’s two statements, that “1. Anyone who is interested should be allowed to sing for Sundays and feasts.” and “2. It is wrong that women have zero opportunity to sing Sundays and feasts.”

No one has a right to sing at Mass - that permission is granted to them at the pleasure of the pastor. And furthermore, there is no reason to say it is “wrong” that the pastor would disallow women from singing at Mass. What is your basis for this?

 

[rondirect]

Yes, CajunJoy, I agree here as well. I think I know all my music ministers quite well and their service to God first and choir second. It is proven when I asked them to sing at all the Liturgies during the Triduum. Most do, if they can and let me know when and why they cannot. The same goes for the Easter Vigil and Easter Sunday Masses: I ask all to show up for the big one and then pick one morning Easter Sunday Mass as well. And, most do. Now, it’s First Eucharist time. I know many will be supportive because of their service to God first. And, may I please add something that I think is missing here: We must not forget that their service to God is also a service to the people; to help lead them in song for the glory of God and thus enhance their worship experience.

 

[rondirect]

I cannot agree with the OP’s two statements, that “1. Anyone who is interested should be allowed to sing for Sundays and feasts.” and “2. It is wrong that women have zero opportunity to sing Sundays and feasts.”

No one has a right to sing at Mass - that permission is granted to them at the pleasure of the pastor. And furthermore, there is no reason to say it is “wrong” that the pastor would disallow women from singing at Mass. What is your basis for this?

This is a very different case in which I agree with your post regarding the poster who created this thread.

However, there are other times like I and Clare have stated that those interested in joining the choir, gets their chance and that includes women! LOL! In this case per this thread, the pastor needs to approve this to happen…agreed! However, in the choir joining setting, the priest allows the Directors he hired to make that call.

 

[FrDavid96]

I attend a small parish in a small town, with one Mass on Sunday. We do not have a music director. There is a men’s only choir that has been in existence since the mid 1800s. They sing every Sunday throughout the winter, and every feast day.

My wife is a trained singer, and she wants to sing- not just summers (the days the men’s choir does not want) but all year and on feast days. Being a woman, she is not eligible for the men’s choir. She has asked for the opportunity of singing for a few Sundays, but the Men’s choir is unwilling to share any of “their” Sundays.

There are two issues, really. 1. Anyone who is interested should be allowed to sing for Sundays and feasts. 2. It is wrong that women have zero opportunity to sing Sundays and feasts.

We are working to get the situation changed, but are expecting a significant fight. Can anyone suggest how we should approach our Bishop, if that becomes necessary? Is there an office of women’s rights at the USCCB? Is there an office of Women’s rights at the Vatican?

Can anyone offer me some guidance?

Thanks!

A few points:

It seems that you are asking (for some Sundays) to replace the choir with a soloist. This is exactly what the Church tells us not to do.

The role of the choir is to lead the congregation in singing. The choir is not to be a performance but rather a way of facilitating everyone’s active participation. That’s exactly why soloists are not to replace the choir (although some rare exceptions can be permitted for special occasions).

One does not need to be in the choir (or in the choir seating area) to sing the congregation’s parts of the Mass. Quite the contrary, the entire congregation should be singing their parts. In other words, while your wife might need permission to be considered a member of the choir, and might need permission to participate in choir-practice, and might need permission to sit in the choir area, she does not need anyone’s permission to sing the congregation’s parts of the Mass. Quite the opposite, no one can tell her she can’t sing them.

 

[rondirect]

Yes, CajunJoy, I still agree; but, get caught up in the music arena, although in order that the Liturgies run smoothly especially during special holy times, e.g. Triduum, we must all communicate and work together cohesively.

 

[rondirect]

A few points:

Father, hope you’re having a great day. This poster has an agenda worthy of self praise. His words relating to having a fight and how well his wife sings, and speaking to the Bishop speaks volumes to me.

 

[Phemie]

the entire congregation should be singing their parts. In other words, while your wife might need permission to be considered a member of the choir, and might need permission to participate in choir-practice, and might need permission to sit in the choir area, she does not need anyone’s permission to sing the congregation’s parts of the Mass. Quite the opposite, no one can tell her she can’t sing them.

Unless she was in my hometown where nobody sings at Mass unless specifically invited to do so by the choir. The invitation isn’t extended often and the constant change in hymns and Mass settings makes it rare that you can learn anything. No such thing as a hymnal in the pews. If you do happen to know a particular setting and join in you are considered rude for taking the attention off the choir.

I go there for sentimental reasons when I’m home on holidays. If I do happen to know what they are singing I still join in.

 

[pianistclare]

Yeah. There’s not one parish here that doesn’t have one or two hymnals in the pew racks.

 

[twf]

Father,
Could you elaborate? Many parishes have a single cantor or “soloist” leading music and no choir at all. Do you mean that if a choir is available, it must be used? Just curious.

 

[pnewton]

. In other words, while your wife might need permission to be considered a member of the choir, and might need permission to participate in choir-practice, and might need permission to sit in the choir area, she does not need anyone’s permission to sing the congregation’s parts of the Mass.

This reminds me of the parable of the talents. Someone whose only outlet for singing is to sing in the Congregation, but does not do so because she cannot sing solo is like the one who was given one talent, but buried it in the field. Let a person first multiply the talent they have in the position they have. Only then will more be given.

 

[TheLittleLady]

I’ve never even visited a parish where there was not at minimum a missalette with music issue either in the pew or available at the entrance.

 

[Phemie]

I’ve never even visited a parish where there was not at minimum a missalette with music issue either in the pew or available at the entrance.

I’m in Canada and I’m so used to seeing the Catholic Book of Worship III and the Celebrate in Song (both, official hymnals issued by the CCCB) in the pews in English parishes that it’s quite jarring to enter a French parish church and see no hymnal at all.

As we’ve said before, the parish priest leads the way. The priest that was in my hometown parish back when I spent time with Dad in his final illness, asked me what I thought about the official French hymnal (D’une même voix) and I told him that I liked the fact that we finally had one. He told me he preferred having the choir choose whatever they wanted and he wanted nothing to do with a hymnal.

 

[rondirect]

Yeah. There’s not one parish here that doesn’t have one or two hymnals in the pew racks.

Clare: There were many posts regarding this, I just picked yours…it was the shortest! More and more Catholic churches are getting more techy. I have mentioned this in other posts before too.

All we have in the pews is one missal in English with a Spanish section, no music issue of any kind. The reason being is that we use 2 projection screens that include all parts of the Mass with the sung acclamations and the words to the songs. The extremely expensive high lumen projectors are high up at the back of the church. When first installed, we thought we would get many complaints; we got none. Instead we got praise for it. People use the missal to follow along with the readings and use the projection for the responses, sung acclamations and the songs. I love it because it gives me much latitude to choose music outside of what is in any one particular music book. More and more Catholic churches are seeing the benefit in this and are tastefully adding this media. It is run by Microsoft PowerPoint and subscribe to a media company for religious backgrounds pertaining to the readings and other parts. And, yes, I create them…just one more job!

 

[Dlee]

It does promote looking up rather than down at a missal or hymnal. I personally don’t like the looks of large screens. It seems like it could be difficult to incorporate in many of the older, more ornate churches. I know in the Holiness faith, for instance, (in the South) early 1900s, they would have one hymnal and the leader would sing a line, the congregation would repeat that line, etc. Times do change.

 

[rondirect]

Dlee, you are spot on. Yes, the people do respond and sing with heads raised and seem to participate better. I didn;t think I would like the large screens myself at first; but, since are church is modern in style with 1/2 the congregation and choir sitting around the Sancutary, it works. I agree also that the more older, ornate churches would have a more difficult time incorporating this media also. I make sure that tasteful slides prepared for this media is used, which, IMO, adds to beauty to the Mass, while not taking away from the action in the sanctuary, particularly on the altar. I am very careful about that. I think if you saw the thematic slides chosen and the way they look in our church, you just might be sold. By the way, the screens do hide away after the weekend Masses.

 

[FrDavid96]

Father,
Could you elaborate? Many parishes have a single cantor or “soloist” leading music and no choir at all. Do you mean that if a choir is available, it must be used? Just curious.

The cantor (or for that matter, even the choir) is supposed to lead the congregation in singing. The congregation’s parts of the Mass are exactly that: their parts.

On the other hand, a soloist is doing a performance. This is not supposed to be done at Mass. Now, we all know, that it may be done from time to time; for example, a soloist singing Ave Maria at a wedding Mass while the bride presents flowers to a statue of the Blessed Mother. Still, it’s not supposed to be done as a regular occurrence at Mass. One can also say the same for a choir—maybe once every few months the choir sings the Creed in Latin (or some such thing as that). It’s not an absolute rule, but it is a general one that should apply for the vast majority of the congregation’s parts of the Mass.

Also, the cantor (or choir) might alternate with the congregation in such things as a verse-and-refrain part (especially for example the responsorial psalm. Of course, that’s fine; still, the congregation should not be outright excluded from participating.

This is what Vatican II means by “full and active participation.” The laity’s parts are their parts to sing or say. They are not supposed to be reserved to the choir.

 

[FrDavid96]

… The reason being is that we use 2 projection screens that include all parts of the Mass with the sung acclamations and the words to the songs. …

I must say that I find projection screens unbecoming, inappropriate and completely beneath the dignity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

They are, by their very nature, an illusion. They are intended to deceive the viewer by making a wall appear to be a book.

It isn’t about rejecting technology or about refusing to change with the times. Digital, recorded, and projected media has it’s place. But that place is not within the Mass.

 

[casslean]

I must say that I find projection screens unbecoming, inappropriate and completely beneath the dignity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

They are, by their very nature, an illusion. They are intended to deceive the viewer by making a wall appear to be a book.

It isn’t about rejecting technology or about refusing to change with the times. Digital, recorded, and projected media has it’s place. But that place is not within the Mass.

Oh, thank you so much for saying this.

Screens are starting to become all the rage in our region, largely because of the work of a few vehement individuals following a very narrow vision of how the church needs to grow and progress. Because I’m young, everyone expects me to be totally on board, and I hate them. I’ve begged my pastor on numerous occasions not to give in to the grumblings of others (fortunately, I think we’re of the same mind in this regard).

I come to Mass to escape the outside world. As soon as I walk in the church, I turn off my phone. I don’t want a great big movie screen distracting me from the beauty and serenity of the Mass.

 

[twf]

Thanks Father. I see what you mean now. I was thinking of a single cantor leading the singing as opposed to a soloist performing on her own.

That raises another question. At our cathedral, there are seven Sunday Masses. At some of them, a single cantor leads the singing. At others, a choir singing in the vernacular leads the singing. But at the most solemn Mass, at 11 am, the choir regularly sings Latin polyphonic settings of the Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei. I greatly appreciate it, but certainly no one is singing along.