Choir director living active gay lifestyle

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If every gay person suddenly wore an armband, how shocked we would all be. They are every where & throughout the Church too, They are our daughters, our mothers & fathers & Grandfathers & grandmothers, & our brothers & sisters, I doubt they chose their sex orientation. They are here, get used to it
 
You have all helped me so much, thank you. The initial shock has passed. I was thinking the worst. Every word God speaks is true and good. I trust in Him. In charity and love I’m thinking now that Priest make mistakes too, we all do. Maybe he’s just scared because their could be a lawsuit. Maybe if everyone in the Church prays for the choir director and evangalize to him with great zeal, he will surrender his life to Christ or leave voluntarily. Thank you all again for blessing me with the strength and depth of your belief, thanks be to God. This is definetly the place I will come to seek wise council. Grace and peace be with all of you.
 
If every gay person suddenly wore an armband, how shocked we would all be. They are every where & throughout the Church too, They are our daughters, our mothers & fathers & Grandfathers & grandmothers, & our brothers & sisters, I doubt they chose their sex orientation. They are here, get used to it
What are you talking about? Get used to it? That is exactly the problem!
 
What are you talking about? Get used to it? That is exactly the problem!
From being involved in the gay culture for about 50 yrs, I have seen it all, priests, ministers, loads of school teachers, truckers, men who you would never suspect in a million years. The whole 50 yrs I was associated with the gay culture, I never ceased to be amazed, by the amount of them & from every walk of life, so they are here, they didn`t choose it, they are hear for a reason unknown to us. We would all be amazed, cause we only know what ourselves are doing
 
But this is only an issue if this man is actively engaging in homosexual intercourse, am I right? I know the church teaches that simply being gay is not a sin; it is homosexual activity that is the sin. Perhaps, just perhaps, he is living a chaste life with his partner. There is no way of knowing without sneaking into his house and seeing what happens behind closed doors. Feel free to do that, if you are so concerned, original poster. If your suspicions are confirmed, and if, you, yourself, are completely free of sin, then go ahead and cast stones.
This is not consistent with authentic catholic teachings. In fact, it is absolutely counter to what the Church teaches. This is a very bad post. You may love kittens, but what about the immortal souls of those enslaved by grave sin?
 
This is not consistent with authentic catholic teachings. In fact, it is absolutely counter to what the Church teaches. This is a very bad post. You may love kittens, but what about the immortal souls of those enslaved by grave sin?
What part is against Church teachings? Not that part about homosexuality isn’t the sin, but sex outside of marriage is the sin…any sex outside of marriage. There are plenty of heterosexual people committing that sin, and I worry about all of their souls.
 
Good job on driving someone away. He tried to do something nice for your church, and you asked someone else (didn’t even confront him yourself) to speak with him about the supposed error of his ways.
 
I strongly disagree with this assessment. … Unless the director is picking music that is offensive or disrespectful to our Lord, there is no reason why his presence should necessitate the OP leaving her choir.
I am in strong agreement with nodito. What did the other poster mean by, Why is she still in the choir? As a member of the parish, she has a right to worship in song. It would be no different from saying that she shouldn’t pray inside the church if she is legitimately offended by a considerable moral discrepancy being displayed. How many Psalms shall we cite that urge us to Sing to the Lord?

No way should she leave. God wants to hear expressions of praise in song: he doesn’t ‘need’ it, but the singer needs it. We need it.

Someone brought up an interesting point about job discrimination vs. volunteering. The only practical problem with this is that it could very difficult to fill these positions, particularly since some parish positions are very time-intensive and would not allow for simultaneous employment elsewhere. It would require the core positions (RCIA and choir directorship, sometimes also CCD head) to be contingent upon being married or otherwise supported – and in the case discussed, if the choir director is living with his partner, the partner might be willing & able to support him, so that would not necessarily be a solution.

But I am glad the OP opened this thread, because while so many people on CAF rail away about discrepancies with pro-choice politicians receiving communion, it’s first important to clean up one’s own house, or there is zero credibility from the inside or the outside. For example, teachers in Catholic schools can be required to show that they are not giving scandal by teaching which contradicts and/or a publicly visible lifestyle that contradicts. The same should hold for parish positions, paid or volunteer. Where there is no consistency in the moral realm, there is no credibility and thus no effective witness.
 
Our music minister is awesome, I cannot imagine our Church without him, he never misses a beat, he is so devoted. He is Married, & has a grown son who is gay, I also found out from a good source, that the music minister was actually caught in the act of performng a homosexual act, whether it was a one time thing out of curiousity or if it`s an ongoing thing, I dont know, what he adds to our mass & all other events is awesome . He is highly praised & he deserves it, we all have a weakness somewhere, God knows this. Homosexuals are everywhere & usually very talented & creative. God has them here for a reason, they have been here on Earth since the beginning of time
 
If there was no contract, no morals clause, then to fire someone because they are gay or handicapped or of a certain ethnic background, etc. could land them in a big lawsuit.
To my knowledge, I do not believe that the Catholic Church is required to be an equal oppertunity employer. I work in HR at my company, a non-profit org, and I know that there are different laws and regulations that apply to Churches. I also know, as an assistant boy scout leader for several years that the Boy Scouts still have the right to refuse to hire or employ anyone who is living an objectionable lifestyle. I have personally witnessed a man who was let go by the Counsil after his private lifestyle came to life. This also being said, I am not an expert by any means.

Besides, if the Church were required to be “politically correct” then we would have to allow birth control on demand, abortion, stem cell research and a whole host of other objectionable things.

Saint123, I believe that the Priest is required to give communion to anyone who asks, even if he knows that person is living in sin. I don’t know if there is a way for the Priest to refuse communion. But I also agree that if your Priest isn’t taking any action than you should go to the Bishop. Perhaps temporarily leaving the Choir is a good idea. You can still sing and praise God with all of the beautiful harmonies and songs from the regular congregation, I do. (I left my choir when my daughter was born). I actually get more pleasure from singing the harmony I know from the congregation rather than in the choir! But I digress… Good luck with this issue and I pray that everyone involved will find peace!

God Bless you!:gopray2:
 
Perhaps temporarily leaving the Choir is a good idea. You can still sing and praise God with all of the beautiful harmonies and songs from the regular congregation, I do. (I left my choir when my daughter was born). I actually get more pleasure from singing the harmony I know from the congregation rather than in the choir! But I digress… Good luck with this issue and I pray that everyone involved will find peace
Undoubtedly the reason that the OP joined the choir in the first place is that singing in the choir is different from singing in the congregation. ! Again, why is it even appropriate to suggest that she leave the choir when someone else is causing scandal or offense?

Rather, if your point is that an upsetting or asynchronous situation may deprive her of her due joy at Mass, and make her choir role uncomfortable because of proximity with the director, another option would be to attend a different parish and possibly join that choir. The reason I say this is that her discomfort is partly the result of not clearly communicated expectations on the part of the pastor. The choir director is merely taking advantage of a situation from which he has not been expressly forbidden (if I understand the OP correctly). Ultimately the pastor is the one who failed to provide guidelines in the first place.

As long as there are no EOE problems that have been alluded to as a possibility, I do not see why – just as with many Catholic schools (depending on the school) – it cannot be stated publicly that people employed in leadership roles by parish/school are expected to be practicing, faithful Catholics in communion with church teaching. Thus, any public admission by somebody who is cohabitating (gay or straight) would be subject to further questioning by the employer & possible termination. I know that I have read job announcements in schools & parishes which specify such conformity on the grounds of role-modeling & representing the institution.

I was in a parish several years ago where the clerical leadership was abominable, in fact, frightening. There were several ways I wanted to contribute to the parish (including in song!), and parishioners also approached me to request my participation in various needs. But the leadership (or lack thereof) was, in its neglect, responsible for a toxic atmosphere, and try as I may, there was no way to get around that. I removed myself for several years and returned after a complete internal housecleaning at the former parish. And had that leadership not changed, I was ready to join another choir & formally register at another parish.

It really interferes with one’s experience of Mass, and sometimes one’s ability to be open at prayer, when a setting is politically or emotionally distracting. People should be able to feel essentially free and without conflicts that are not of their own doing when they enter a church to worship or pray.

To me, this encompasses more than the OP’s situation. I think that clergy have to get clear in policy statements what their behavioral expectations are, of their lay staff. A well-run parish gives off wonderful, inviting vibes, and communication is key to that atmosphere. I understand about the limitations on refusing the sacraments, etc., and how priests differ in their taste for enforcement, but admitted lifestyles are in a different category, it seems to me. It does affect morale when some people are allowed to behave in one manner, while others sacrifice in order to be faithful!

I hope that the OP feels strong enough to take whatever next step she feels is right and which still ensures her enjoyment & freedom during worship.🙂
 
To my knowledge, I do not believe that the Catholic Church is required to be an equal oppertunity employer. I work in HR at my company, a non-profit org, and I know that there are different laws and regulations that apply to Churches. I also know, as an assistant boy scout leader for several years that the Boy Scouts still have the right to refuse to hire or employ anyone who is living an objectionable lifestyle. I have personally witnessed a man who was let go by the Counsil after his private lifestyle came to life. This also being said, I am not an expert by any means.

Besides, if the Church were required to be “politically correct” then we would have to allow birth control on demand, abortion, stem cell research and a whole host of other objectionable things.

snip
I’m an employment attorney who does a ton of discrimination cases. In the United States, the Church is treated like any other employer, and cannot discriminate on the basis of religion (or race, or sex, or age, etc.) in connection with employment.

However, there is an exception granted to the Church (and all other bona fide religious organizations) with respect to the employment of persons “to perform work connected with the carrying on … of its activities.” Generally speaking, the Church is permitted to discriminate in favor of its religion in such matters. This includes restricting the position to Catholics, and requiring people in the position to adhere to Catholic teaching.

Based on my knowledge of the law, I would suspect that this Church would be free to discharge this particular choir director if he persisted in grave sin in this manner. Leading the choir during worship services is about as close as one can get to “carrying on” of a Church’s “activites” short of actually being up on the ambo. I also find the situation to be scandalous - as evidenced by the OP’s reaction to the situation, if nothing else.

Please do not treat this as legal advice - it’s impossible to give legal advice in a little snippet in an online forum. But research the religious exemption to Title VII if you want to learn more.
 
How sure are you that he is gay? You might want to make sure that it isn’t malicious gossip. Talking to the priest in private was a good idea, but, again, make sure of your information before passing it on.
I have to second this point and it’s importance. The choir director at my parent’s former church was forced out of her job because of a few Parish council members who decided she was gay. They had seen her at the movies and shopping with another woman “many times” and decided this woman was her partner. They pressured the Pastor until he finally told the musician that he could not renew her contract. He did help her get another position, but the damage was already done. She ended up leaving church work entirely and hasn’t been to Mass in several years. The circumstances surrounding her dismissal did a great deal of damage to my father’s faith as well, since he was in her choir and knew what happened. We don’t know whether this woman actually was gay or not, she would never even address it.

Please be careful with the accusations you make-you have no idea the damage they can cause.
 
If there was no contract, no morals clause, then to fire someone because they are gay or handicapped or of a certain ethnic background, etc. could land them in a big lawsuit.
To my knowledge, I do not believe that the Catholic Church is required to be an equal oppertunity employer. I work in HR at my company, a non-profit org, and I know that there are different laws and regulations that apply to Churches. I also know, as an assistant boy scout leader for several years that the Boy Scouts still have the right to refuse to hire or employ anyone who is living an objectionable lifestyle. I have personally witnessed a man who was let go by the Counsil after his private lifestyle came to life. This also being said, I am not an expert by any means.
That would be my question as well. I am no legal expert, but I would imagine that the Church has a different set of standards than a secular business or a government agency. Even if the guy decided to sue, that doesn’t necessarily mean he has a legal leg to stand on. If a parish could refuse to hire him in the first place because of his lifestyle choice, then I don’t see how firing him for the same reason is that much different.
 
How will they know they are living in grave sin. The Church will hold high the word of God.
My heart is on fire.
Jason, and all my fellow servants of God, thank you.
 
I’m 100% positive. He introduced me to his partner. I found a picture of him on the internet kissing another man at an Obama rally.
Does this man even know the precepts of the Church and their stance on homosexuality? If he does, then he has allot of nerve and pride to do what he is doing. Does he think God’s law does not apply to him and he can walse in anywhere?

I never understood why some people are so prideful to think Church law does not apply to them
 
Why is he even doing choir? Why were you searching his past?

I don’t think you can throw stones at him if you ever sinned. Still he shouldn’t be receiving it if he is active gay, but if he is gay but celibate then he should receive it.

You are not God so you either can stop or just do choir. I don’t think it’s your business what he does in bed, but if he is doing it then he really shouldn’t but that’s his soul to worry about not yours.
 
Jack, I think the OP’s concerns about the choir director’s position (relative to his purported lifestyle) are valid and understandable. I wouldn’t go so far as to involve myself even mentally in whether this person is receiving the sacraments, because I agree that’s no particular business of a lay person. I don’t think that’s where the controversy should lie.

The term “partner” among gays is well understood: it means sexual partner, lover. It does not mean a celibate lifestyle despite SSA. It sounds as if the term “partner” has been used by the choir director, but maybe I misunderstand that. If it has, then several things are going wrong in that parish:

(1) a double standard is in play. Maybe certain choir members would sure love to cohabitate, but are resisting temptation in order to remain faithful to morality. Maybe there are choir members who have SSA but similarly are resisting the desire to act on that. How do you think they feel? The choir director is getting, as it will, approval, indirectly, for living in an illicit arrangement that is denied to those under him. He’s not just another choir member; he’s a visible leader. It’s a privilege to be in such a position, and that privilege brings with it the implicit stamp of approval of a pastor.

(2) The priest who was approached is not really addressing the issue to the satisfaction of anyone who would voice such a concern. This is poor leadership on his part.

(3) There appear to be no written guidelines in place whereby people applying for such jobs have clear knowledge of conditions of employment which include standards of behavior. In a way, this is just as unfair to the employee as to the other parishioners, because any employee deserves prior information so that he or she knows the terms of employment as well as the conditions of termination. It sets up such an employee for early termination, as well as tension with the other parishioners if everybody is operating on rumor. A leader, which includes a pastor, is obligated to be a good communicator as an essential part of his role.

The above 3 points are, i.m.o., important to all parishes. I do not single out this priest or this lay person. I’m talking about what makes parishes run well, and, on the contrary, what promises to bring on morale problems. I’ve been in parishes where “an active gay ministry” does not mean that they are living a celibate life. Rather, they have lovers; but the straights within the parish need to confess their intimacies to the priest. But supposedly, because gays are a minority class and apparently need a ministry, we’re supposed to look the other way & make exceptions for them.

Similarly, I was in a parish where one of the priests on staff was openly, actively gay and referenced his gay lovers during homilies. I wonder if you have any idea how that made the straight, celibate, faithfully practicing priests feel. (Angry? much?) And btw the gay priest also justfied his lifestyle due to the “minority status” I just mentioned above.

This all points to the need for consistency and communication.

I think that’s a different thing than being overly worried about someone else’s state of grace. JMHO.
 
You stated that this is a hired position, a paid position. This puts the Parish in some interesting legal water when it comes to discrimination in hiring - chances they can simply fire the man for his sexual orientation.

One reason to have these liturgical positions be volunteers.
Actually, it is my understand that being hired by a religious organization frees them from these discrimination policies. This is what allows them to hire only religious people for some positions.

In my parish we have a pianist (actually, 2) who are hired, and are not catholic. They are christian (well, one for sure) but the are respectful. They do not receive communion, and keep a low profile. I don’t think this choir director being gay and non christian is a problem, but if he is receiving eucharist, or starts “preaching to the choir” about being gay (lame joke…sorry;-) ) then he’s got to go.

I really do think this whole problem would be alleviated if the church looked to its own for these positions. There is probably a lot of really good talent hiding out in the pews. 👍
 
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