Choir director living active gay lifestyle

[Jack17]

Jack, I think the OP’s concerns about the choir director’s position (relative to his purported lifestyle) are valid and understandable. I wouldn’t go so far as to involve myself even mentally in whether this person is receiving the sacraments, because I agree that’s no particular business of a lay person. I don’t think that’s where the controversy should lie.

The term “partner” among gays is well understood: it means sexual partner, lover. It does not mean a celibate lifestyle despite SSA. It sounds as if the term “partner” has been used by the choir director, but maybe I misunderstand that. If it has, then several things are going wrong in that parish:

(1) a double standard is in play. Maybe certain choir members would sure love to cohabitate, but are resisting temptation in order to remain faithful to morality. Maybe there are choir members who have SSA but similarly are resisting the desire to act on that. How do you think they feel? The choir director is getting, as it will, approval, indirectly, for living in an illicit arrangement that is denied to those under him. He’s not just another choir member; he’s a visible leader. It’s a privilege to be in such a position, and that privilege brings with it the implicit stamp of approval of a pastor.

(2) The priest who was approached is not really addressing the issue to the satisfaction of anyone who would voice such a concern. This is poor leadership on his part.

(3) There appear to be no written guidelines in place whereby people applying for such jobs have clear knowledge of conditions of employment which include standards of behavior. In a way, this is just as unfair to the employee as to the other parishioners, because any employee deserves prior information so that he or she knows the terms of employment as well as the conditions of termination. It sets up such an employee for early termination, as well as tension with the other parishioners if everybody is operating on rumor. A leader, which includes a pastor, is obligated to be a good communicator as an essential part of his role.

The above 3 points are, i.m.o., important to all parishes. I do not single out this priest or this lay person. I’m talking about what makes parishes run well, and, on the contrary, what promises to bring on morale problems. I’ve been in parishes where “an active gay ministry” does not mean that they are living a celibate life. Rather, they have lovers; but the straights within the parish need to confess their intimacies to the priest. But supposedly, because gays are a minority class and apparently need a ministry, we’re supposed to look the other way & make exceptions for them.

Similarly, I was in a parish where one of the priests on staff was openly, actively gay and referenced his gay lovers during homilies. I wonder if you have any idea how that made the straight, celibate, faithfully practicing priests feel. (Angry? much?) And btw the gay priest also justfied his lifestyle due to the “minority status” I just mentioned above.

This all points to the need for consistency and communication.

I think that’s a different thing than being overly worried about someone else’s state of grace. JMHO.

I bet they felt ashamed more than angry, since others are going to associate them with the active gay priest (straight or not he should not be in a relationship period because he’s a priest).

Well she address her concern, and if the priest cannot deal with it properly I personally would leave the parish forever. Not because of the choir director, but because the priest cannot properly run it.

The priest should had background check him before he became choir director. But who would of known that someone really obvious being actively gay would decide to become a huge important part of the church.

I think the choir leader should keep his private life private if he is going to do this occupation.

 

[saint143]

1 corinthians chapter 5

 

[Ron_Conte]

Write to the Bishop of the diocese; he has a right to know about this situation.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I bet they felt ashamed more than angry, since others are going to associate them with the active gay priest (straight or not he should not be in a relationship period because he’s a priest).

[Underline mine]Having been close friends with many a straight priest. I’ll bet they felt both.

Well she address her concern, and if the priest cannot deal with it properly I personally would leave the parish forever. Not because of the choir director, but because the priest cannot properly run it.

Yes. (Echoes a point I made earlier)

The priest should had background check him before he became choir director. But who would of known that someone really obvious being actively gay would decide to become a huge important part of the church.

I think the choir leader should keep his private life private if he is going to do this occupation.

Agreed on the last points.

Agree also on the OP’s appropriate reference to 1 Corinthians 5. Lay people get this; even more should a pastor. This is not about condemnation but about scandal, example, witness. In unity & community we should be compassionate & non-condemning. But in unity & community we should also be of a common understanding and set of expectations of one another. For otherwise, what are we representing by our “ministries,” our leadership positions, our participation in those ministries & activities?

 

[pismopal]

I’m 100% positive. He introduced me to his partner. I found a picture of him on the internet kissing another man at an Obama rally.

I was having some sympathy pangs for him before I found out he had been to an Obama rally.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

I bet they felt ashamed more than angry, since others are going to associate them with the active gay priest (straight or not he should not be in a relationship period because he’s a priest).

Well she address her concern, and if the priest cannot deal with it properly I personally would leave the parish forever. Not because of the choir director, but because the priest cannot properly run it.

The priest should had background check him before he became choir director. But who would of known that someone really obvious being actively gay would decide to become a huge important part of the church.
I think the choir leader should keep his private life private if he is going to do this occupation.

You’ve hit on what has bothered me about this whole story. Why would a gay person who does not intend to stay celibate take a job in a Catholic Church to begin with? It’s certianly no secret that the Catholic church is not at all supportive of gay people having partners or dating and if he were found out he would likely lose his job. And as has already been stated-most church contracts have a morals clause in them. He could get in trouble just for signing the morals clause and then not complying.

I’m sure that there are more than a few gay people working in Church jobs, but I expect that they have either chosen to remain celibate or they are VERY careful.

 

[Elizabeth502]

You’ve hit on what has bothered me about this whole story. Why would a gay person who does not intend to stay celibate take a job in a Catholic Church to begin with? It’s certianly no secret that the Catholic church is not at all supportive of gay people having partners or dating and if he were found out he would likely lose his job. And as has already been stated-most church contracts have a morals clause in them. He could get in trouble just for signing the morals clause and then not complying.

I’m sure that there are more than a few gay people working in Church jobs, but I expect that they have either chosen to remain celibate or they are VERY careful.

I agree with your first paragraph and I also have stated that in different threads (for example, the murkily-titled group in many parishes, “gay ministry.” ) In all of the many parishes I have worshipped in for any length of time, those who join a group with that or a similar title (including a group I know of in one parish called “LGBT Catholics”), none of these groups consist of people with SSA who are in a celibate lifestyle. Every one of them consists of a majority of actively practicing G, L, or B members. Clearly, in those several parishes, people are not only not careful, they are announcing & celebrating their lifestyle & supporting each other in that. I would understand any support group or ministry trying to remain within the universal chastity required of all of us, but that is not what such groups are about.

As to your second paragraph, there are indeed “more than a few,” but in many, many parishes they are not close to being careful, but have several different kinds of leadership positions within their parishes: in addition to music positions, they lead lay Eucharistic mnistries and all kinds of liturgical roles, including leading the Prayers of the Faithful after the Liturgy of the Word. In one recent case, such a leader began his first announced intention with an angrily spoken prayer (bitter tone, angry look on the face), “That the Church will be fully inclusive about gay participation in the life of the Church.” (Gritted teeth, literally) Since I know the connotation of “inclusiveness” well in this context, this is not about the Christ-mandated acceptance of all people and welcoming them at the liturgy, etc. It is about: accept my gay lifestyle as I define it, and include me/us in all the privileges of church participation without exception, on our terms.

So the answer to your rhetorical question (Why would such a person take such a job in such an environment?) is that he believes he can get away with it, because in many cases that is the rule, not the exception.

 

[saint143]

I agree with your first paragraph and I also have stated that in different threads (for example, the murkily-titled group in many parishes, “gay ministry.” ) In all of the many parishes I have worshipped in for any length of time, those who join a group with that or a similar title (including a group I know of in one parish called “LGBT Catholics”), none of these groups consist of people with SSA who are in a celibate lifestyle. Every one of them consists of a majority of actively practicing G, L, or B members. Clearly, in those several parishes, people are not only not careful, they are announcing & celebrating their lifestyle & supporting each other in that. I would understand any support group or ministry trying to remain within the universal chastity required of all of us, but that is not what such groups are about.

As to your second paragraph, there are indeed “more than a few,” but in many, many parishes they are not close to being careful, but have several different kinds of leadership positions within their parishes: in addition to music positions, they lead lay Eucharistic mnistries and all kinds of liturgical roles, including leading the Prayers of the Faithful after the Liturgy of the Word. In one recent case, such a leader began his first announced intention with an angrily spoken prayer (bitter tone, angry look on the face), “That the Church will be fully inclusive about gay participation in the life of the Church.” (Gritted teeth, literally) Since I know the connotation of “inclusiveness” well in this context, this is not about the Christ-mandated acceptance of all people and welcoming them at the liturgy, etc. It is about: accept my gay lifestyle as I define it, and include me/us in all the privileges of church participation without exception, on our terms.

So the answer to your rhetorical question (Why would such a person take such a job in such an environment?) is that he believes he can get away with it, because in many cases that is the rule, not the exception.

Pope Leo XIII, Dall’Alto (# 2), Oct. 15, 1890: “It is needless now to put the Masonic sects
upon their trial. They are already judged; their ends, their means, their doctrines, and
their action, are all known with indisputable certainty. Possessed by the spirit of Satan,
whose instrument they are, they burn like him with a deadly and implacable hatred of
Jesus Christ and of His work; and they endeavor by every means to overthrow and
fetter it.”1
Pope Leo XIII, In Ipso (# 1), March 3, 1891: “Nevertheless, it grieves us to think that the
enemies of the Church, joined in most wicked conspiracy, scheme to weaken and
even, if possible, utterly wipe out that wondrous edifice which God Himself has
erected as a refuge for the human race.”2

 

[Timbothefiveth]

Church too, They are our daughters, our mothers & fathers & Grandfathers & grandmothers, & our brothers & sisters, I doubt they chose their sex orientation.

One’s orientation does not excuse sinning, whether they are gay or straight.

They are here, get used to it

Lots of other sins are here too, should we just “get used to” those? Or if you’re just referring to being gay, it’s not the orientation that’s the problem. It’s when you sin because of it. Same as being a straight person

In fact, if a straight person was shacking up with someone, I would think he shouldn’t be choir leader either.

Of course, if you don’t know for a fact that this guy isn’t celibate, maybe you should wait a bit.

 

[saint143]

They are our daughters, our mothers & fathers & Grandfathers & grandmothers, & our brothers & sisters

Matthew 10:34-39
Matthew 12:48-50

 

[Jack17]

You’ve hit on what has bothered me about this whole story. Why would a gay person who does not intend to stay celibate take a job in a Catholic Church to begin with? It’s certianly no secret that the Catholic church is not at all supportive of gay people having partners or dating and if he were found out he would likely lose his job. And as has already been stated-most church contracts have a morals clause in them. He could get in trouble just for signing the morals clause and then not complying.

I’m sure that there are more than a few gay people working in Church jobs, but I expect that they have either chosen to remain celibate or they are VERY careful.

He’s crazy, if it’s true, he shouldn’t do it.

I’m sure that’s true but I bet 99% are celibate gays, the other 1% are crazy. They have no business being so open about.

 

[saint143]

He’s crazy, if it’s true, he shouldn’t do it.

I’m sure that’s true but I bet 99% are celibate gays, the other 1% are crazy. They have no business being so open about.

From the Bay Reporter: Gay Catholics Discuss Marriage Equality

*******another panelist, talked about how the grassroots activism after Prop 8 inspired him to get involved. He participated in the march to Sacramento this spring led by the group One Struggle, One Fight. ********, who identifies as bisexual, wore his rosary every day and said the march was a “deeply religious” and “life changing” experience “about figuring out how to be Catholic and be fully who I am and be an activist.”

********* also started a group called Catholics for Marriage Equality. The group he started will be combining efforts with the Dignity group of the same name, he said.

Another group working on marriage equality is California Faith for Equality.

Pastor ************, California Faith for Equality’s interim executive director, said that when working with Catholics, his group is focusing on training lay members.

“The people in the pews are the people we really need to connect with and engage,” and change the minds of, said Chu. He said California Faith for Equality will be working with Dignity on marriage equality.

 

[saint143]

Ephesians 6:12- “For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against
principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the
spirits of wickedness in high places.”

 

[saint143]

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/7_enemyinfiltration.pdf

 

[saint143]

www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/7enemyinfiltration.pdf

 

[Jack17]

From the Bay Reporter: Gay Catholics Discuss Marriage Equality

*******another panelist, talked about how the grassroots activism after Prop 8 inspired him to get involved. He participated in the march to Sacramento this spring led by the group One Struggle, One Fight. ********, who identifies as bisexual, wore his rosary every day and said the march was a “deeply religious” and “life changing” experience “about figuring out how to be Catholic and be fully who I am and be an activist.”

********* also started a group called Catholics for Marriage Equality. The group he started will be combining efforts with the Dignity group of the same name, he said.

Another group working on marriage equality is California Faith for Equality.

Pastor ************, California Faith for Equality’s interim executive director, said that when working with Catholics, his group is focusing on training lay members.

“The people in the pews are the people we really need to connect with and engage,” and change the minds of, said Chu. He said California Faith for Equality will be working with Dignity on marriage equality.

What does that have to do with what I said? Gay marriage does not go with Catholicism. End of story.

 

[saint143]

What does that have to do with what I said? Gay marriage does not go with Catholicism. End of story.

What does that have to do with what I said? Gay marriage does not go with Catholicism. End of story.

Isn’t that what’s motivating you gay activists? You want the right to marry. The Church people keep voting it down. We’ll go to the Churches, slip in among them. Win them over. Gain their sympathy. Twist and corrupt the written Word. Example from Nowhereman, "They are our Grandmothers, Fathers, Mothers, Brothers and Sisters. When Jesus tells us: Matthew:10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
36and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39"He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
Jack, you say, "Don’t throw stones. This has nothing to do with forgiving a repentant sinner. I am referring to the active gay lifestyle homosexual in the Church. 1 Corinthians 5
Paul Condemns Spiritual Pride
1 I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you—something that even pagans don’t do. I am told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother. 2 You are so proud of yourselves, but you should be mourning in sorrow and shame. And you should remove this man from your fellowship.
3 Even though I am not with you in person, I am with you in the Spirit. And as though I were there, I have already passed judgment on this man 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus. You must call a meeting of the church. I will be present with you in spirit, and so will the power of our Lord Jesus. 5 Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns.
6 Your boasting about this is terrible. Don’t you realize that this sin is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old “yeast” by removing this wicked person from among you. Then you will be like a fresh batch of dough made without yeast, which is what you really are. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us. 8 So let us celebrate the festival, not with the old bread of wickedness and evil, but with the new bread of sincerity and truth.
9 When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. 10 But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or are greedy, or cheat people, or worship idols. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.
You won’t slip passed a true follower of Christ!

 

[pyro_alchemist]

I think it is probably much simpler and much less sinister than the majority of you posting here think. While I agree with the church teaching on homosexuality, I understand why such a thing could happen: It’s just the fact that large a large Catholic church’s choir is about the only available gig for a professional musician who is interested in “serious” vocal music.

For several years I sang with a cathedral choir made up of about one-half paid members. A couple of the professionals were openly gay and a couple more probably were in the closet. Thankfully, very few of the congregation were aware of this and the choir was a real blessing. It was just such a choir that drew me to the Catholic church and set me on the way to becoming a convert.

I would be a bit careful about “exposing” the choir master or causing a scandal. Perhaps God is using this man as a blessing. It wouldn’t be the first time He used a the music of a sinner to bless his church. It was the music of Johann Sebastian Bach, a devout Lutheran and anti-catholic and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart a philanderer and hedonist, who brought this humble wannabe tenor to the church.

 

[saint143]

I think it is probably much simpler and much less sinister than the majority of you posting here think. While I agree with the church teaching on homosexuality, I understand why such a thing could happen: It’s just the fact that large a large Catholic church’s choir is about the only available gig for a professional musician who is interested in “serious” vocal music.

For several years I sang with a cathedral choir made up of about one-half paid members. A couple of the professionals were openly gay and a couple more probably were in the closet. Thankfully, very few of the congregation were aware of this and the choir was a real blessing. It was just such a choir that drew me to the Catholic church and set me on the way to becoming a convert.

I would be a bit careful about “exposing” the choir master or causing a scandal. Perhaps God is using this man as a blessing. It wouldn’t be the first time He used a the music of a sinner to bless his church. It was the music of Johann Sebastian Bach, a devout Lutheran and anti-catholic and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart a philanderer and hedonist, who brought this humble wannabe tenor to the church.

Music in the Church must never be a stage for the performer or a “gig” but worship alone. Bach converted from one religion to another, how can you compare? He was a Christian. Most professing gays do not believe in God. They know what God has written about homosexuality, but don’t agree. Blinded by their pride and arrogance they believe they have not sinned. They say they were born that way, it’s who they are. Is a murderer born to be a murderer or an adulterer born to be an adulterer. Of course not. They acted on their sinful desires and became a prisioner of sin on their own free choice. By Gods grace and mercy we are forgiven for our sins when we confess we have sinned against Him.

 

[Middleman]

Our priest hired a new organist and choir director a few weeks ago. I discovered that he is a homosexual living an active gay lifestyle. He has been first in line everyweek to receive the Eucharist. I spoke to the Father about it in privately. He called me and told me that he told him to stop receiving and keep a lower profile. I’m seeking wise council.

It sounds like your priest handled it well.