Choir director living active gay lifestyle

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Middleman said:
It sounds like your priest handled it well.👍
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Don’t be angered by the statement of a fool but stand firm in your belief and trust in Gods word.
2 Timothy 2:23
Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
 
saint143 said:
Music in the Church must never be a stage for the performer or a “gig” but worship alone. Bach converted from one religion to another, how can you compare? He was a Christian. Most professing gays do not believe in God. They know what God has written about homosexuality, but don’t agree. Blinded by their pride and arrogance they believe they have not sinned. They say they were born that way, it’s who they are. Is a murderer born to be a murderer or an adulterer born to be an adulterer. Of course not. They acted on their sinful desires and became a prisioner of sin on their own free choice. By Gods grace and mercy we are forgiven for our sins when we confess we have sinned against Him.
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Um…and just how many “professing gays” do you know?

As a part of the community, I can tell you that MANY gay people believe in God. The reason why the gay choir director story rang oddly for me is that my gay friends who wish to be involved in church work have found churches that accept them for who they are. Just because the Catholic church does not embrace the gay community, doesn’t mean nobody does.
 
saint143 said:
Music in the Church must never be a stage for the performer or a “gig” but worship alone.
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While that may have always been the ideal it has never been the reality… to the enrichment of society and culture. I for one do not want to think what the world would be like without all the wonderful music and art that was commissioned by wealthy patrons and has become an integral part of Catholic worship. Several years ago I attended my daughter’s wedding at a Lutheran church and was startled by the stark almost sterile appearance of the chapel with no religious art and plain white-stained glass windows. **Can you imagine a Sistine Chapel like that? **

P.S. Before you all start hollering about my attending my daughter’s wedding in a non-Catholic church she is not nor has ever been Catholic. I converted after she became an adult but before she was married.
 
saint143 said:
Don’t be angered by the statement of a fool but stand firm in your belief and trust in Gods word.
2 Timothy 2:23
Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
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Excuse me?:confused:
 
saint143 said:
Isn’t that what’s motivating you gay activists? You want the right to marry. The Church people keep voting it down. We’ll go to the Churches, slip in among them. Win them over. Gain their sympathy. Twist and corrupt the written Word. Example from Nowhereman, "They are our Grandmothers, Fathers, Mothers, Brothers and Sisters. When Jesus tells us: Matthew:10:34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
36and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
37"He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39"He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
Jack, you say, "Don’t throw stones. This has nothing to do with forgiving a repentant sinner. I am referring to the active gay lifestyle homosexual in the Church. 1 Corinthians 5
Paul Condemns Spiritual Pride
1 I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you—something that even pagans don’t do. I am told that a man in your church is living in sin with his stepmother. 2 You are so proud of yourselves, but you should be mourning in sorrow and shame. And you should remove this man from your fellowship.
3 Even though I am not with you in person, I am with you in the Spirit. And as though I were there, I have already passed judgment on this man 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus. You must call a meeting of the church. I will be present with you in spirit, and so will the power of our Lord Jesus. 5 Then you must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his sinful nature will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day the Lord returns.
6 Your boasting about this is terrible. Don’t you realize that this sin is like a little yeast that spreads through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old “yeast” by removing this wicked person from among you. Then you will be like a fresh batch of dough made without yeast, which is what you really are. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us. 8 So let us celebrate the festival, not with the old bread of wickedness and evil, but with the new bread of sincerity and truth.
9 When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. 10 But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or are greedy, or cheat people, or worship idols. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. 11 I meant that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a believer yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or is a drunkard, or cheats people. Don’t even eat with such people.
You won’t slip passed a true follower of Christ!
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You’re absurd. I am not a gay activisit and neither am I living a gay lifestyle, I never dated a guy so you don’t know who I am. I said gay people won’t get married in the church, which is true, so don’t twist my words and say I want that! Dont preach with my words use a gay activist not me. I dont believe in gay marriage in the church.
 
Jack17 said:
You’re absurd. I am not a gay activisit and neither am I living a gay lifestyle, I never dated a guy so you don’t know who I am. I said gay people won’t get married in the church, which is true, so don’t twist my words and say I want that! Dont preach with my words use a gay activist not me. I dont believe in gay marriage in the church.
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Please forgive me Jack. You sounded sympathetic toward the other side. I pray you spend more time in the written Word. You will grow in faith and discernment and not become confused by the tricks and schemes of the devil and his children. “I will praise you with an upright heart as I learn your righteous laws.”- Psalm 119:7
 
saint143 said:
Please forgive me Jack. You sounded sympathetic toward the other side. I pray you spend more time in the written Word. You will grow in faith and discernment and not become confused by the tricks and schemes of the devil and his children. “I will praise you with an upright heart as I learn your righteous laws.”- Psalm 119:7
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I don’t throw stones at anybody (except very inhuman things) that’s all I meant.

My faith is fine.
 
For God’s sake, be careful.

Here is a link to one of the many articles about what happened at a certain parish:

news.google.com/newspapers?nid=888&dat=20030705&id=bzEMAAAAIBAJ&sjid=T14DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6123,5272103

Google the name in the article and you’ll find many more articles. Read them. Study them. Learn from them.

Since this man was ousted from his position, the parish is blacklisted by many musicians in the area. It’s extremely difficult to get instrumentalists.

This is JMPO, but I believe the whole thing was planned, scripted, and acted very well. I believe it was done to drum up public sympathy for the gay community and to divide the local parish and make the Catholic Church look like the bad guys.

When I read the OP, I got chills, because it looks to me like this is a definite strategy that is being used in other parishes to undermine the Catholic Church.

I’m not sure what to tell you, but I’m positive that your priest and bishop KNOW what happened at the parish in the link, and they know they are walking through a minefield and that one stumble on their part can lead to disaster. My suggestion for you and other parishioners is to STAND CLEAR and let your priest and bishop handle this. I’m guessing that they are receiving advice from experts in the Church as to how to deal with this so that the least amount of harm will occur in your parish. Don’t get in their way. Just stand back, pray a lot, and support your priest and bishop, even if it looks like they’re betraying the Church. I’m betting that they are working on a strategy, at least I hope so.
 
I do think the priest is the one to handle this. That being said, there is no other way to handle this than firing the man. Would a Church keep an active prostitute in a leadership position? Would the Church keep someone in a leadership position that performed abortions? This sort of thing is a scandal. The possible reprecussions are irrelevant. It is never wrong to do the right thing. If your priest and bishop do nothing, then the a lay person has the recourse to take it to a higher court. Pray. Turn it over to God. Perhaps a priest has a lack of fortitude. Perhaps it is a question of poor judgement. But the right thing here is clear. The man repents of his homosexual activitites, resigns or is terminated.
 
Who is perfect who sits in the Catholic Church, The Church is made up of sinners, the Church preaches Forgiveness, & not to judge. If we throw out all the Catholics who are not doing what they are supposed, the Church will be empty. We all all works in progress, & all at different levels of spirituality, everyone`s relationship with God is different. The last shall be first & the first shall be last. JUdge not lest ye be judged
 
^ The argument is not about isolating a sinner. The argument is about a position, a representation, a witness, and a privilege. We all need (while none of us “deserve”) a place at the table of the Lord, as we are all needful of his merciful grace. But that equality does not extend to the witness implied by positions of leadership within any given parish.
 
I’m pretty sure that there is no requirement that the music director be catholic, or be a practicing catholic. When I used to be Catholic, our music director was methodist.
 
Exalt said:
I’m pretty sure that there is no requirement that the music director be catholic, or be a practicing catholic. When I used to be Catholic, our music director was methodist.
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True, but I would guess that there is a morals clause in the contract. I taught Catholic school for two years back in the 1990’s and I had to sign a morals clause. If I did anything that would “bring scandal” to the school or the Church I could be immediately dismissed.
 
Exalt said:
I’m pretty sure that there is no requirement that the music director be catholic, or be a practicing catholic. When I used to be Catholic, our music director was methodist.
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The scandal was him receiving Holy Communion.
 
Exalt said:
I’m pretty sure that there is no requirement that the music director be catholic, or be a practicing catholic. When I used to be Catholic, our music director was methodist.
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Good point. But in addition to the mention of the ‘morals clause’ by another poster, there is sometimes in such positions the warning not to teach directly or by example, what the church would regard as error. Thus, an admittedly controversial lifestyle, no matter the religion of any choir director, could be grounds for dismissal.

All the more reason for two things to happen that a couple of us mentioned previously: (1) clearly communicated expectations on the pastor’s part, to employees prior to employment; (2) avoidance of such positions on the part of those likely to dance with danger by virtue of self-identification.

It seems to me that if people with controversial lifestyles, and/or different religious beliefs, are hired in these Catholic positions, they need assurance that they are doing so contingent upon the utmost discretion and respect on their part, combined with guarantees that those who employ them will neither fire nor persecute them if discretion & respect are maintained. (No discussion of private lifestyles, no controversial religious teaching,no unworthy reception of sacraments, etc.)

When I was a teenager, our own talented female choir director in my parish was known to be recently divorced. My how times have changed, but then it was a hot controversy that she merely had the position. (Adults made a big thing of it; it was surprising to me, but hardly shocking.) Yet she was indeed Catholic and behaved with the utmost propriety & discretion. As I remember she had not remarried; yet still, because she was conscious of her visibility, did not approach the sacraments.
 
Wasn’t Michaelangelo known to be a homosexual? Many homosexual men seem to excel in the arts. Didn’t he paint the Sistine Chapel?
 
tjm190 said:
Ever heard of judge not lest ye be judged?
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That is not the sense in the translation. The more accurate meaning is Condemn Not, lest you be condemned.

We are supposed to make reasonable & intelligent judgments, but only with sufficient knowledge – not on the basis of rumor or assumption. I don’t think the message of the thread is to condemn anyone; rather, to discuss the privilege of position within a parish if, and only if, that constitutes scandal arising from accurate information.
 
With humility and reverence we show the depth of our love for God through obedience. Many people have come to worship every Sunday for as long as I’ve known them and do not receive our Lord in the Eucharist. In their great love and reverence for Christ and the Church they obey her teachings.

I have wonderful relationships and great love for people that don’t share my beliefs. We live in peace with each other because we give respect to one another. We’re human beings made in God’s image. That’s a dignity we all share which makes us equal in value and worthy of respect. Our differences do not entitle us to disrespect each other in any way. If someone came into your home and showed you disrespect you would have the right to tell him to leave. When a person is hired for a position in the Church, then makes it known that he is disobedient in her teachings, displaying irreverence and disrespect in his actions, how could anyone say he was wronged for being asked to leave?
 
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