Choir Members not Reading Music

[puzzleannie]

Be careful what you wish for!

Remember, you are losing 10,000 neurons each day!

ICXC NIKA

you underestimate the destructive influence of my environment on my brain capacity, about the only weight I am losing is brain mass

I agree with the comment about proper breathing, if I was a choir director I would spend more time teaching that, and the concept of “blend” than I would worry about reading music (sorry can’t help remembering the old Andy Griffith episode where Barney is in the choir and has to lip sync so he doesn’t drown everyone else out).

 

[baltobetsy]

I wish I did not have the slim knowledge I do have of reading music, then I would not get so frustrated when the choir and musicians lead the congregation so far astray from what is written.

is it me or is 3/4 time not waltz time? as in Shall we DANCE 1 2 3
why does every organist and choir approach the many hymns set in this meter as funeral dirges?

There are people (some of them even here on CAF ) who equate slow with reverent, and nothing will budge them from this idea. Sadly, some of them are organists.

 

[Cat]

I wish I did not have the slim knowledge I do have of reading music, then I would not get so frustrated when the choir and musicians lead the congregation so far astray from what is written.

is it me or is 3/4 time not waltz time? as in Shall we DANCE 1 2 3
why does every organist and choir approach the many hymns set in this meter as funeral dirges?

I think they are afraid that if they play a hymn to tempo, people will accuse them of sounding irreverent or “happy clappy” or “gospel” (therefore certainly not appropriate for Mass), or heaven forbid, Protestant. So they slow their hymns to a dirge and play them all molto dullo quietoso, because that makes it sound “Catholic” and “reverent” and “traditional.”

Hey everyone, hold onto your scalps and prepare yourself for a shocker that a lot of Catholics don’t seem to know about–

Slow and quiet does not necessarily equal reverent.

GASP!

And here’s another little-known fact: fast and loud does not necessarily equal irreverent.

DOUBLE GASP! Say it isn’t so!

It’s so.

And now you know, so next time you hear me playing a German hymn at a lively march tempo, don’t criticize me.

If you really want to cringe, try playing or singing “Lord of the Dance” at a dirge tempo. Hoo boy. It sounds like the Dance of the Sloths. Kind of creepy, honestly.

 

[Sarabande]

I think they are afraid that people will accuse them of sounding irreverent or “happy clappy” or “gospel” (therefore not appropriate for Mass), or heaven forbid, Protestant, if they actually play a hymn to tempo. So they slow it to a dirge and play it molto quietoso, because that makes it sound “Catholic” and “reverent” and “traditional.”

With the exception of those who play that slow because they don’t have the ability to play the notes correctly if they play the pieces faster… or because they’re old and can’t move their hands and arms fast enough… I’ve found from talking to organists (they work at both Protestant and Catholic churches) who go along with the “slow” train of thought that it’s a style of playing. They are taught that it is the appropriate way of playing a hymn because it’s supposed to be easier to sing AND it’s believed to be more “dignified” rather than what they would think is “spastic”. AND here’s the funny part, the organists I know who play like that, all went to Protestant organists for their lessons who play in that way at their Protestant congregations . So, although some may think it’s more “Catholic” or “reverent” or “traditional”, the majority of the organists I know don’t equate to being a Catholic vs. Protestant way of playing. They just consider it the “proper” way of playing.

One organist I know who is protestant and works in a Catholic church and plays hymns that I would normally do faster, says that Catholics play their hymns too fast. And for the hymns which were taken from chorales and originally had the fermatas at the end of each phrase… he insists on doing them for the hymns along with playing them at the original tempi of the chorale. That works fine for the original because it’s not meant to be sung like a hymn, but when you expect a congregation to have the breath control of trained singers… it’s just not going to work and becomes a funeral dirge. But he insists that this is the proper way and Catholics don’t do it the proper way… everything is too fast for him with the Catholic “style” of playing. Go figure!

And now you know, so next time you hear me playing a German hymn at a lively march tempo, don’t criticize me.

Are you kidding?!?! I’d be the first to extol you. Our organist at my former parish played the organ so beautifully and was really good at taking the tempi of the hymns at such a great pace so that it could be easily sung by the normal person.

Of course, there is a time and place for “slow” and “fast” hymns. People can also be a bit overexaggerated in the tempi that they take whether it’s quick or slow. I just think the organist or music director needs to be realistic of what a congregation and choir can handle and also be honest with themselves… would I like this if I were sitting in the pews?

 

[ctkrcia]

At my church, we have two choirs, which I define as a designated group of people assembled to sing. One of these is a Spanish choir - probably about 15-20 members. I would be surprised if more than one of them could read musical notation. As a matter of fact, their leader is a guitar player. When him and I play together (I play guitar as well), I give him the lyrics with guitar chords. He cannot even read that. He watches my left hand on the fret board and plays along.

The other choir is about 20 members. There are probably 5-6 of them that can read music. There are three other ensembles that sing at the other Masses. These average about three people each. Usually, only one can read music.

If you ever look at guitar music, it is usually one of two things. The most common is lyrics with chords written above them. The other is call tablature. It shows the string to hold down and the fret - no note.

In addition to the choir, I also play in a band professionally (I can’t believe I get paid for it!). The band has seven musicians. There are probably only two of us who can read music. The keyboardist can’t even read music! He plays simply by ear. When we learn a new cover song, we listen to the CD over and over. We practice by ourselves playing along with the recording. Then when we get together, we work on playing it together. In about 30 minutes of practice, we are almost dead-on the CD. NONE of us have the sheet music - maybe only the guitar chords.

Would it help if all choir members could read music? Most definitely! Then the harmonies would all be solid and timely. Can we work with those that don’t have that skill? Absolutely! The more voices the better, as long as they sing on key. :harp:

 

[Bluegoat]

This is true, but I can guess that many of those blind singers and instrumentalists have had some sort of training to help them play with correct rhythm, dynamics, etc. because most other professional musicians wouldn’t want to work with them if they didn’t have those essentials. It’s the same with those singers in choirs who can’t read music. They need a good leader who can help them achieve the best of their abilities - and I’ve heard some good volunteer choirs with little musical training sing difficult choral works.

I think at least some of them use braille notation.

One of the things I find interesting about the music at our parish is that we have the services signed for the deaf. Some of the interpreters are very good at communicating the feel of the music in their signing, and it can be very beautiful.

 

[GEddie]

you underestimate the destructive influence of my environment on my brain capacity, about the only weight I am losing is brain mass.

As I live only seventy miles from the RGV, I relate wholemindedly.

Hey, if you are able to teach singing sinners how to breathe properly, I’d not be too worried about your loss of bra(name removed by moderator)ower just yet.

HE is risen, ICXC NIKA

 

[pnewton]

Wow, I didn’t notice how much we are blest at my parish! We frequently have long (and new) choral pieces and polyphony!

That is good that the music in your parish is appropriate for the people there. However, not every parish would like to have new choral pieces all the time. My parish sings a lot and the people like to sing more than they like being sung to. I mentioned earlier the large immigrant population. The other skewed demographic we have is a large percentage of Protestant converts. We are a Bible-belt Church that has grown through RCIA. That is why I am a big fan of taking the context of the Church into consideration. My personal preference has always been for old classic hymns. I grew up singing SATB stuff straight from the hymnal and congregationally.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

I have met many good choir members whose sight reading skills are not very good, but the main problem I find is that most of them do not know how to project their voices. Without microphones covering every angle, they simply cannot be heard.

 

[baltobetsy]

I am a paid section leader in a choir in an Episcopal parish. We have 8 paid singers in the choir, and about 35 to 40 volunteers. Almost everyone reads music. A number of the volunteers are fine musicians who have career obligations (doctors mostly) which prevent them from holding the paid positions.

We sing two anthems every Sunday. We never repeat during the liturgical year. About a quarter to a third of the music is new every year. If it’s a fairly easy piece (relatively speaking), the choir can sight-read it unaccompanied at the first rehearsal.

We have one blind member. She has been in the choir for many years, since long before she began to lose her sight. She has all the old repertoire committed to memory, as well as most of the hymnal. When we learn a new piece, she tape records the rehearsal and has someone help her learn the text. I know she uses some kind of Braille device, but I’m not sure about the mechanics of it. She never sings a wrong note.

We have a select group of singers (most of the paid singers plus a few more) who present special Evensong programs throughout the year. This year we did our biggest project ever - all six of the Bach motets in three Evensong programs. We had been singing them, one per year, for the last six years, but this year, someone said, hey, let’s do 'em all! That was insane, but we did it! God knows what they’ll think up for next year. I hope no one feels a need to play “can you top this?”

So that’s how it is on the other side of the Tiber, where music budgets are huge and the music itself is a high priority.

 

[Davina100]

I’ve been in a couple of church choirs and have never been able toread music.
Our directors have always been patient and kind and helped us read when it meant to repeat etc. I got the hang of following the notes up and down but I don’t know what that note is. I wish I could learn to read music.
Since we were all volunteers no one had expectations that anyone could read music. The only requirement was to be at practice and have a desire to worship through song.
I and a few others did bring recorders to practice to be able to practice at home.
We would learn new pieces but slowly.
Like I said we had a very good director and a parish that liked to sing as well so they liked singing songs that they all knew as well.

 

[Sarabande]

I think at least some of them use braille notation.

One of the things I find interesting about the music at our parish is that we have the services signed for the deaf. Some of the interpreters are very good at communicating the feel of the music in their signing, and it can be very beautiful.

That is a very good and interesting point, and I understand what you are talking about with the interpreters. I don’t understand sign language at all, but you are right about some being very good at communicating with their signing. I’ve always believed the same with music. My teachers and mentors always told me that to be able to truly communicate the music it has to be felt deeply and you must know what you are singing. Some musicians are excellent at it… it’s innate. Others aren’t and they either will never be able to communicate or they work at discovering what makes them communicate best through their instrument. After many years of study and performing, I believe this is true, especially with voices. Some have naturally, beautiful voices, but they don’t have the ability yet to express fully the music that they are singing. It sometimes takes a mentor, a teacher, a music director, etc. to help bring that full communication out from them so that it inspires the listener. If it is sacred music, it has to be a form of musical, prayerful expression.

I think this is why many people can be touched by a piece of music they “don’t understand” on the surface in terms of language, especially, but understand on a deeper plain. I’ve seen it and experienced it first hand, either as a listener or as the performer. (I’m a strong advocate of art song recitals and concerts for the community, so I perform for people who don’t usually or ever listen to classical vocal music.)

One of my first lessons that has stuck in my head because my teachers pounded it into me… “Prime le parole, dopo la musica.” First the words, then the music. The music is important, it’s true, but it would just be pretty music without an understanding of the words by the performer. This is because many people won’t know what you’re saying (even if it’s in English - I’ve seen that enough times). You have to know what you’re saying in a psalm, a choral motet, aria, song, etc. in order to get the message across to the “lay” person who doesn’t have the time or maybe the ability to do it themselves. As choir members, I believe one of our jobs is to create musical prayer, thus the meaning of the words are vital, whether it’s in the spoken language of the congregation, in Latin or other language.

So, I think for those choirs which most members can’t read music, yes, it is important for the choir director to work hard had teaching the music, but it is also good to emphasize the importance of the meaning of the text being sung.

 

[Don9of11]

I’ve heard from several people about how many people in their choir can’t read music. Is that standard throughout the US?

Isn’t the ability to read music assumed when you join a choir?

Most choirs consist of volunteers and in my experience can’t read music. Some can see that the note goes up or down, some might know the value of the note and some can recognize a sharp from a flat or natural. I also find that many choir members have trouble with pronunciation and projecting their voices. A good choir director can usually bring all the voices together in the careful selection of the hymns, those with traditional melodies for example can bring a weak sounding choir to life, simply because they know the tune.

 

[Aramis]

I wish I did not have the slim knowledge I do have of reading music, then I would not get so frustrated when the choir and musicians lead the congregation so far astray from what is written.

is it me or is 3/4 time not waltz time? as in Shall we DANCE 1 2 3
why does every organist and choir approach the many hymns set in this meter as funeral dirges?

Technically, no, 3/4 is not “waltz time”. Most waltzes are duple compound (Usually 6/8, tho’ I’ve seen 6/4), and in 4 beats: Step-step-step, pause. Some are in Triple simple (usually 3/4), with a steady 3 step pattern.

I’ve seen only one in triple-compound, and it was annotated in 9/2.

(Compound refers to 3 subdivisions of the primary beat; 6/8 is usually 2 beats of 3 8th note duration each; the beat is a dotted note having a base of double the indicated duration (so in 6/8, the dotted quarter is the beat). Simple means the primary beat is shown and divided into two sub-beats.)

 

[puzzleannie]

that is an example of more info than we non-musical folks need to know but thank you for the correction.

our new festival choir performed last night at our Easter Dinner, fabulous.
they did a program of a broadway medley at our capital campaign gala, and another combo program at our recent parish festival.
the closer was the Hallaluiah Chorus. Yes, folks, they can read music. with only a dozen members the harmony was, if not faultless, true and blended and simply awesome. If you knew the average standard of our various Mass-time choirs you would be even more astounded.

 

[Amnagrla]

I have sung in Catholic choirs all my life. I also have sung in paid, professional choirs and as a soloist. I have a BA and MA in Music Education and my focus was for voice. I give lessons as well. That being said:

It really depends on the church. I’ve sang at churches where they paid me to sing in a 4-part group of soloists for a service. I’ve been in groups that only sing in unison, unless I provide harmony, etc. With more and more music programs being cut from schools, and most meaningful music experiences are of the informal type (volunteer church choirs, self-taught garage bands, etc.) it cannot be expected that musicians know how to read music. I consider myself lucky to have gone through school for music, but I use that knowledge to help bridge the gap between “informal learning” and what the National Standards expected students to know before they gradauate.

P.S. Just for the record… there are professional singers who don’t know how to read music either. Thus the old stereotype given by instrumentalists that singers aren’t musicians. And unfortunately, there is a reason why the stereotype came about. Singers were notorious for being non-musicians or just poor musicians in general. We singers have had to work very hard to kill that stereotype by becoming good musicians. My instrumentalists friends used to always say when they introduced me to other musicians… “This is Sarabande. She’s a Mezzo-Soprano AND a musician.” Because they know that instrumentalists will roll their eyes or hold their breath when they have to work with a singer they assume are not musicians.

The stereotype is horrible, but yes, founded in truth. I have also worked hard to overcome that. I learned to play many other instruments to help.

I wish I did not have the slim knowledge I do have of reading music, then I would not get so frustrated when the choir and musicians lead the congregation so far astray from what is written.

is it me or is 3/4 time not waltz time? as in Shall we DANCE 1 2 3
why does every organist and choir approach the many hymns set in this meter as funeral dirges?

Yes, and no. The time signature of a piece does not designate the tempo (speed) of the piece.

In one of the choirs I used to be in (and now only do occassionally), I began as a middle schooler. It had a piano player who read music well, the director was a man who played guitar and sang, however, could only read the basics of music, and then three other men who varied in ability. One read music slightly, another only read the words, and the last actually has a learning disability and will bring a tape recorder the week before and tape the music to practice all week, but he is always amazing. Definitely a God-given talent.

Moral of these stories? Don’t assume anything.

 

[TrueLight]

[edited]

Have you checked out cyberbass.com?

It is an excellent resource for choral singers, especially those who don’t read music. You just pick the song and pick your voice part and you can listen to it played out via piano. All the divisis are included too.

I think it’s a great site for choir directors to refer their members to.

 

[Chelalu]

One answer is, You will learn to read music to some extent if you join a choir.

I joined my parish choir at age 45, having no musical training (because my Catholic school could not provide that from its meager budget). A decade later, I can read music to a certain extent, and i expect that will keep improving.

So, i don’t think, “Do you read music” is a yes/no question; if the answer is “no” at one point in time, it won’t necessarily be true forever. And if it is “yes” it will become even more “yes” down the line.

 

[George_Pierson]

I’ve heard from several people about how many people in their choir can’t read music. Is that standard throughout the US?

Isn’t the ability to read music assumed when you join a choir?

Being in a choir as well, I did not always know how to read music and all that. I am pretty much self taught, but I am not all that great. However, I would strongly encourage anybody who sings in a choir or who wants to do so should see about taking private singing lessons and or private music lessons to help you out.

 

[Sarabande]

Being in a choir as well, I did not always know how to read music and all that. I am pretty much self taught, but I am not all that great. However, I would strongly encourage anybody who sings in a choir or who wants to do so should see about taking private singing lessons and or private music lessons to help you out.