M
Marybeloved
Guest
And may I add that it is the high-Petrine papacy for which plenty of evidence exists rather than either the low (non-existentThank-you for your informational explanation Marduk.
And may I add that it is the high-Petrine papacy for which plenty of evidence exists rather than either the low (non-existentThank-you for your informational explanation Marduk.
Uhhhh…you are merely repeating yourself.Okay…then as I asked,show us the authenic sources debunking the Catholic historical arguments? And your argument holds no logical at all. If the Eastern Rites are in communinion with Rome apparently they do not hold to anything different or else they would not be in communion.I didn’t say they were inaccurate. I said that just because the Eastern Rites united with Rome, it doesn’t necessarily prove that the usual Catholic historical arguments for the papacy are accurate. I also said that I’m not here to prove anything.
I mean, it’s only Catholic sources I’m aware of that promote that view.And may I add that it is the high-Petrine papacy for which plenty of evidence exists rather than either the low (non-existent) Petrine or Absolutist Petrine exaggerations which are equally imaginary. It’s also what you’ll find in the scriptures and 1st millennium practice, and the only model that makes total sense of the working and structure of the church from the beginning.
The Bishop of Rome was certainly no monarch, but neither was he the modern invention called “first in honor only”- both are equally ridiculous claims when it comes to the early church.
Ummh…for a faith that is not “a religion of the book”, history must necessarily matter a lot with regards to the oral tradition and the faith that is handed down in practice.I mean, it’s only Catholic sources I’m aware of that promote that view.
On the other hand, I’m not sure why the historical argument matters terribly.
So you should take that as a clue not to debate with me.Uhhhh…you are merely repeating yourself.
I didn’t say that the Eastern Rites held to ‘anything different.’If the Eastern Rites are in communinion with Rome apparently they do not hold to anything different or else they would not be in communion.
I’m allowed to express my views.Second, you are contradicting yourself. If you are not here to prove anything,then why bother to make such claims or statements about Catholic arguments or sources?
To an extent, yes. If I don’t find your assumptions or arguments convincing, I don’t have to accept it.Apparently you are here to disprove something,whether you care to admit it or not.
The U.S. government has changed; therefore, the papacy is correct. Interesting non-sequitur there.Who ever said the papacy of today would look exactly as it did centuries ago? Does the U.S. government look the same as 1789? Your argument holds no validity at all.
I expressed myself poorly. the bishop of Rome The Pope could not depose a bishop in another jurisdiction in the early years of the church. correct if I am wrong and give an instance of where He did and it was accepted by the church as a whole. I have been following the back and forth on several websites and a good deal of “cherry picking” of quotes occurs on both sides. I’m sorry but IMO it boils down to an issue of authority and there is no clear evidence that the Papacy in the early church had the type of power it has today. After all IIRC Rome was a backwater by the 6th century. It started to try to exert universal control after it fell under the influence of the Franks and other Germanic invaders. The schism was caused by political and cultural forces on both sides, which isolated Rome and the latin west from the East.I’d just like to clarify him, the post you’re replying to said he didn’t have the power to interfere. Orthodox tradition is quite clear that he could, and often was invited to interfere, but this interference would then be on the terms of those who invited him to interfere.
Within modern Orthodoxy this same standing has fallen to the Patriarch of Constantinople. With one notable exception (a geographic region in Greece where the Churches are officially under him but administered by the Church of Greece), Constantinople has no power to interfere, and indeed claims no such power. Nonetheless he is often invited to rule on disputes. The most noteworthy recent case I can think of is when he ruled that the desposition of Archbishop Makarios of Cyprus was illegal, after being asked by the bishops of the island and the Archbishop to decide.
Non-sequitur? Such a response from you elicits truth behind my statement.The U.S. government has changed; therefore, the papacy is correct. Interesting non-sequitur there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Uhhhh…you are merely repeating yourself.
I’ll debate you or anyone…just say when.So you should take that as a clue not to debate with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
If the Eastern Rites are in communinion with Rome apparently they do not hold to anything different or else they would not be in communion.
Then why mention those rites?I didn’t say that the Eastern Rites held to ‘anything different.’
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Second, you are contradicting yourself. If you are not here to prove anything,then why bother to make such claims or statements about Catholic arguments or sources?
And I am allowed to challenge your views.I’m allowed to express my views.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Apparently you are here to disprove something,whether you care to admit it or not.
Then you lied. I am not here to convince you,the ECF words are the one’s who ought to be convincing you. I merely parrot what has been written and said over and over and over and over.To an extent, yes. If I don’t find your assumptions or arguments convincing, I don’t have to accept it.
What does a change in the governance of the United States have to do with the acceptability of a change in the governance of the Church? It is a complete non-sequitur.Non-sequitur? Such a response from you elicits truth behind my statement.
Nice dance…what do you call it? Here are your own words:What does a change in the governance of the United States have to do with the acceptability of a change in the governance of the Church? It is a complete non-sequitur.
So in other words,the papacy of today is not the same,thus it is not valid because it is not the one the ECF knew? How does that in any shape or form rebuke,reject or invalidate the papacy as a whole?The papacy of today, unfortunately looks nothing like the papacy they knew.
How does sola scriptura being unknown to the fathers rebuke or invalidate the concept? This appeal to the fathers and tradition is widely-used method of argument amongst Catholics, so I figured it might apply here too, but I suppose you can just pick and choose when that guiding principle works and when it doesn’t.Nice dance…what do you call it? Here are your own words:
So in other words,the papacy of today is not the same,thus it is not valid because it is not the one the ECF knew? How does that in any shape or form rebuke,reject or invalidate the papacy as a whole?
That doesn’t matter. Some of the posters here are intent on making sure you are here to prove something.I also said that I’m not here to prove anything.
Not even for another day, thanks. You were very rude, you know.I’ll debate you or anyone…just say when.
I was wondering if there is ever going to be any dialog regarding the differences between the Western Catholic (Latin) and Eastern Catholic and the schism true Eastern Orthodox Church?That doesn’t matter. Some of the posters here are intent on making sure you are here to prove something.
It is horrible that we give such lip service to dialogue here, but only accept full debates.
Now that I think of it, it’s a bit like the Spanish Inquisition sketch… You sit there in your comfy chair while they put on the pressure, demanding that you confess, CONFESS the error of your ways.
the schism occured around 1054 AD and there were several issues involved including filioque, papal primacy and many cultural/theological differences. Here a link to some basic infoI was wondering if there is ever going to be any dialog regarding the differences between the Western Catholic (Latin) and Eastern Catholic and the schism true Eastern Orthodox Church?
None should have been separated, in my opinion, because we are all Christians, but there you go…I would like to see a list of the causative differences of the West Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox (Not the Eastern Catholic)…I believe there was a separation of these two around 1,000 AD?
Could you explain what caused the great separation of the One Universal Church?
While finding some of it offensive I find some of it hilarious, actually, because they seem to be reacting more to what I haven’t said than what I have said.That doesn’t matter. Some of the posters here are intent on making sure you are here to prove something.
It is horrible that we give such lip service to dialogue here, but only accept full debates.
Now that I think of it, it’s a bit like the Spanish Inquisition sketch… You sit there in your comfy chair while they put on the pressure, demanding that you confess, CONFESS the error of your ways.
I don’t think so, if you have strong scriptural and practical support for the papacy.Ummh…for a faith that is not “a religion of the book”, history must necessarily matter a lot with regards to the oral tradition and the faith that is handed down in practice.
Surely it will be clear, if you have a predetermined position.And I don’t know about the sources you refer to- But you can read the Fathers’ sayings yourself to see the actual position. All you need to do is look at the ones given by both Catholics and Orthodox (against each other) together and the true position becomes quite clear.