Choosing between Orthodoxy and Catholicism -- how and why did you do it?

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Thank-you for your informational explanation Marduk.
And may I add that it is the high-Petrine papacy for which plenty of evidence exists rather than either the low (non-existent :rolleyes:) Petrine or Absolutist Petrine exaggerations which are equally imaginary. It’s also what you’ll find in the scriptures and 1st millennium practice, and the only model that makes total sense of the working and structure of the church from the beginning. 🤷 The Bishop of Rome was certainly no monarch, but neither was he the modern invention called “first in honor only”- both are equally ridiculous claims when it comes to the early church.
 
I didn’t say they were inaccurate. I said that just because the Eastern Rites united with Rome, it doesn’t necessarily prove that the usual Catholic historical arguments for the papacy are accurate. I also said that I’m not here to prove anything.
Uhhhh…you are merely repeating yourself.Okay…then as I asked,show us the authenic sources debunking the Catholic historical arguments? And your argument holds no logical at all. If the Eastern Rites are in communinion with Rome apparently they do not hold to anything different or else they would not be in communion.

If they are not accurate nor inaccurate,then what exactly is out there? Second, you are contradicting yourself. If you are not here to prove anything,then why bother to make such claims or statements about Catholic arguments or sources? Apparently you are here to disprove something,whether you care to admit it or not.
 
And may I add that it is the high-Petrine papacy for which plenty of evidence exists rather than either the low (non-existent :rolleyes:) Petrine or Absolutist Petrine exaggerations which are equally imaginary. It’s also what you’ll find in the scriptures and 1st millennium practice, and the only model that makes total sense of the working and structure of the church from the beginning. 🤷 The Bishop of Rome was certainly no monarch, but neither was he the modern invention called “first in honor only”- both are equally ridiculous claims when it comes to the early church.
I mean, it’s only Catholic sources I’m aware of that promote that view.

On the other hand, I’m not sure why the historical argument matters terribly.
 
I mean, it’s only Catholic sources I’m aware of that promote that view.

On the other hand, I’m not sure why the historical argument matters terribly.
Ummh…for a faith that is not “a religion of the book”, history must necessarily matter a lot with regards to the oral tradition and the faith that is handed down in practice.

And I don’t know about the sources you refer to- But you can read the Fathers’ sayings yourself to see the actual position. All you need to do is look at the ones given by both Catholics and Orthodox (against each other) together and the true position becomes quite clear. Anyone saying that the Pope had no authority over other churches beyond his own is quickly shown to be telling a fable; Anyone saying that the Bishop of Rome’s authority was absolute and/or unmitigated is telling another myth/fable; Anyone saying that the Bishop of Rome was independent of the magisterium of his brother-Bishops is telling another myth, and anyone saying that the Councils were independent of the Pope (as Bishop of Rome, not just a Bishop) is also telling a myth.
 
Uhhhh…you are merely repeating yourself.
So you should take that as a clue not to debate with me.
If the Eastern Rites are in communinion with Rome apparently they do not hold to anything different or else they would not be in communion.
I didn’t say that the Eastern Rites held to ‘anything different.’
Second, you are contradicting yourself. If you are not here to prove anything,then why bother to make such claims or statements about Catholic arguments or sources?
I’m allowed to express my views.
Apparently you are here to disprove something,whether you care to admit it or not.
To an extent, yes. If I don’t find your assumptions or arguments convincing, I don’t have to accept it.
 
Who ever said the papacy of today would look exactly as it did centuries ago? Does the U.S. government look the same as 1789? Your argument holds no validity at all.
The U.S. government has changed; therefore, the papacy is correct. Interesting non-sequitur there.
 
I’d just like to clarify him, the post you’re replying to said he didn’t have the power to interfere. Orthodox tradition is quite clear that he could, and often was invited to interfere, but this interference would then be on the terms of those who invited him to interfere.

Within modern Orthodoxy this same standing has fallen to the Patriarch of Constantinople. With one notable exception (a geographic region in Greece where the Churches are officially under him but administered by the Church of Greece), Constantinople has no power to interfere, and indeed claims no such power. Nonetheless he is often invited to rule on disputes. The most noteworthy recent case I can think of is when he ruled that the desposition of Archbishop Makarios of Cyprus was illegal, after being asked by the bishops of the island and the Archbishop to decide.
I expressed myself poorly. the bishop of Rome The Pope could not depose a bishop in another jurisdiction in the early years of the church. correct if I am wrong and give an instance of where He did and it was accepted by the church as a whole. I have been following the back and forth on several websites and a good deal of “cherry picking” of quotes occurs on both sides. I’m sorry but IMO it boils down to an issue of authority and there is no clear evidence that the Papacy in the early church had the type of power it has today. After all IIRC Rome was a backwater by the 6th century. It started to try to exert universal control after it fell under the influence of the Franks and other Germanic invaders. The schism was caused by political and cultural forces on both sides, which isolated Rome and the latin west from the East.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Uhhhh…you are merely repeating yourself.
So you should take that as a clue not to debate with me.
I’ll debate you or anyone…just say when.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
If the Eastern Rites are in communinion with Rome apparently they do not hold to anything different or else they would not be in communion.
I didn’t say that the Eastern Rites held to ‘anything different.’
Then why mention those rites?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Second, you are contradicting yourself. If you are not here to prove anything,then why bother to make such claims or statements about Catholic arguments or sources?
I’m allowed to express my views.
And I am allowed to challenge your views.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Apparently you are here to disprove something,whether you care to admit it or not.
To an extent, yes. If I don’t find your assumptions or arguments convincing, I don’t have to accept it.
Then you lied. I am not here to convince you,the ECF words are the one’s who ought to be convincing you. I merely parrot what has been written and said over and over and over and over.
 
Non-sequitur? Such a response from you elicits truth behind my statement.
What does a change in the governance of the United States have to do with the acceptability of a change in the governance of the Church? It is a complete non-sequitur.
 
What does a change in the governance of the United States have to do with the acceptability of a change in the governance of the Church? It is a complete non-sequitur.
Nice dance…what do you call it? Here are your own words:
The papacy of today, unfortunately looks nothing like the papacy they knew.
So in other words,the papacy of today is not the same,thus it is not valid because it is not the one the ECF knew? How does that in any shape or form rebuke,reject or invalidate the papacy as a whole?
 
The only control is your Free-Will, to follow the Mystical Body of Christ established on St Peter by Jesus Christ through Divine Providence. Its Biblical, Historical and all are called to follow in obedience. And that obedience is the same as required in Gods Kingdom. And that is the aspect which is always questioned, but always remained since CHRIST. Regarless of what heresy, what evil, the Gates of Hell will never Prevail. And the last time we looked? They still hadn’t.

The similarity between the US Government and the CC is due to St Robert Bellarmine’s work during the reformation. Basically the US Goverment is set up very similar to Rome since Jefferson copied Bellarmines work. The difference being the clause “Seperation of Church and State” which BTW has taken on a completely different aspect than the Forefathers of the Declaration of I intended. Properly understood, its the elect who serves the body. Which is exactly how the CC operates.

The Pentarchy is what first caused the issues with the churchs. The idea came about due to the political and ecclesiastical prominence of the five sees, but the concept of their universal and exclusive authority was firmly tied to the administrative structure of the Roman Empire. The Roman Catholic Church does not accept, either in theory or in practice, the theory of the government of the Christian Church as a pentarchy. There lies the issue.

Of the three sees that the First Council of Nicaea was to recognize as having such extraprovincial power, Rome is the one of which most evidence is discerned. The church in Rome intervened in other communities to help resolve conflicts. Pope Clement I, did so in Corinth in the end of the 1st century. In the beginning of 2nd century, Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, speaks of the Church of Rome as “presiding in the region of the Romans”. In the end of that century, Pope Victor I threatened to excommunicate the Eastern bishops who continued to celebrate Easter on 14 Nisan, not on the following Sunday.

Council of Nicaea in 325, in whose fourth canon the title “metropolitan” FINALLY appears for the first time, sanctioned the existing grouping of sees by provinces of the Roman empire, but also recognized that three sees, Alexandria, Antioch and Rome, already had authority over wider areas. In speaking of Antioch, it also spoke generically about “other provinces”.

While the Council did not specify the extent of the authority of Rome or Antioch, it clearly indicated the area, even outside its own province of Egypt, over which Alexandria had authority, by referring to “the ancient customs of Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis, according to which the bishop of Alexandria has authority over all these places”.

This Council’s recognition of the special powers of Rome, Alexandria and Antioch served as the basis of the theory of the three…

Petrine sees (Rome and Antioch were founded by St Peter and Alexandria by his disciple Mark the Evangelist) that was later upheld, especially in Rome and Alexandria, in opposition to the theory of the five Pentarchy sees.

The First Council of Constantinople (381) decreed in a canon of disputed validity: “The Bishop of Constantinople, however, shall have the prerogative of honour after the Bishop of Rome; because Constantinople is New Rome.”

[This “prerogative of honour” did not entail jurisdiction outside his own “diocese”.]

Council also decreed: "The bishops are not to go beyond their dioceses to churches lying outside of their bounds, nor bring confusion on the churches; but let the Bishop of Alexandria, according to the canons, alone administer the affairs of Egypt; and let the bishops of the East manage the East alone, the privileges of the Church in Antioch, which are mentioned in the canons of Nice, being preserved; and “let the bishops of the Asian Diocese administer the Asian affairs only; and the Pontic bishops only Pontic matters; and the Thracian bishops only Thracian affairs.” Jerusalem was not put at the head of any of the five dioceses. Until the Fourth Council of Constantinople of 869-870, by Rome, which proposed the theory that the most important sees were the three Petrine ones, with Rome in first place. :

And as stated above the rest is “moot”, since nothing is constant but change which is a fact of “physics”. Just look in mirror 5-years from now.

Biblically. Historically, the Churchs founded by St Peter are the authority of the Mystical Body of Christ by Divine Providence. And it wouldn’t matter where Rome is, be it Africa, America, oh I forgot they aren’t “allowed” in Russia :rolleyes: Or if it was Ethiopia, it would still be St Peters Chair given by God.

Where are we, when we know we must demand that our faith and morals be followed even though that is going to lead to ridicule, and rejection, even by members of our own family. Where are we when we know we are morally bound to make certain demands that are going to be unpopular. Where will you stand then?

The Chair of Peter speaks for Christianity like it of not. And often its not liked. Not even by us here in the church. its “Thy Will be Done” not mine or yours.
 
Nice dance…what do you call it? Here are your own words:

So in other words,the papacy of today is not the same,thus it is not valid because it is not the one the ECF knew? How does that in any shape or form rebuke,reject or invalidate the papacy as a whole?
How does sola scriptura being unknown to the fathers rebuke or invalidate the concept? This appeal to the fathers and tradition is widely-used method of argument amongst Catholics, so I figured it might apply here too, but I suppose you can just pick and choose when that guiding principle works and when it doesn’t.
 
I also said that I’m not here to prove anything.
That doesn’t matter. Some of the posters here are intent on making sure you are here to prove something.

It is horrible that we give such lip service to dialogue here, but only accept full debates.

Now that I think of it, it’s a bit like the Spanish Inquisition sketch… You sit there in your comfy chair while they put on the pressure, demanding that you confess, CONFESS the error of your ways.
 
That doesn’t matter. Some of the posters here are intent on making sure you are here to prove something.

It is horrible that we give such lip service to dialogue here, but only accept full debates.

Now that I think of it, it’s a bit like the Spanish Inquisition sketch… You sit there in your comfy chair while they put on the pressure, demanding that you confess, CONFESS the error of your ways.
I was wondering if there is ever going to be any dialog regarding the differences between the Western Catholic (Latin) and Eastern Catholic and the schism true Eastern Orthodox Church?

None should have been separated, in my opinion, because we are all Christians, but there you go…I would like to see a list of the causative differences of the West Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox (Not the Eastern Catholic)…I believe there was a separation of these two around 1,000 AD?

Could you explain what caused the great separation of the One Universal Church?
 
I was wondering if there is ever going to be any dialog regarding the differences between the Western Catholic (Latin) and Eastern Catholic and the schism true Eastern Orthodox Church?

None should have been separated, in my opinion, because we are all Christians, but there you go…I would like to see a list of the causative differences of the West Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox (Not the Eastern Catholic)…I believe there was a separation of these two around 1,000 AD?

Could you explain what caused the great separation of the One Universal Church?
the schism occured around 1054 AD and there were several issues involved including filioque, papal primacy and many cultural/theological differences. Here a link to some basic info

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schism_of_1054
 
That doesn’t matter. Some of the posters here are intent on making sure you are here to prove something.
It is horrible that we give such lip service to dialogue here, but only accept full debates.
Now that I think of it, it’s a bit like the Spanish Inquisition sketch… You sit there in your comfy chair while they put on the pressure, demanding that you confess, CONFESS the error of your ways.
While finding some of it offensive I find some of it hilarious, actually, because they seem to be reacting more to what I haven’t said than what I have said.

I don’t mind side discussions but really this thread is supposed to be about why people chose one Church over the other and not about proving something we already take for granted.
 
Ummh…for a faith that is not “a religion of the book”, history must necessarily matter a lot with regards to the oral tradition and the faith that is handed down in practice.
I don’t think so, if you have strong scriptural and practical support for the papacy.
And I don’t know about the sources you refer to- But you can read the Fathers’ sayings yourself to see the actual position. All you need to do is look at the ones given by both Catholics and Orthodox (against each other) together and the true position becomes quite clear.
Surely it will be clear, if you have a predetermined position. :rolleyes:
 
To put it very simply, I believe that Orthodoxy has preserved the patristic faith more fully than the Catholic Church, which has developed significantly over time.
 
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