Choosing our miracles

[Socrates4Jesus]

Is there not a word for ‘mother’ in Hebrew or Aramaic, the language that Jesus (pbuh) spoke that it was necessary for him to call his mother ‘woman’? …

Yes, but your argument was that it was disrespectful in ancient Judea to refer to one’s mother as woman, and my point is that the opposite is true – it was a term of respect. If you believe this to not be the case, then please cite an expert in ancient Jewish culture to back up your claim.

 

[paarsurrey]

Prophet Jesus (pbuh) cured a leper and healed a blind man among the many miracles that Muslims also believe he did indeed do with the help of Allah.

Hi

I don’t think that the above statement of my Muslim friend is in alignment with the following verses in Quran, rather it is in contradiction:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 13: Al-Ra`d
[13:15] Unto Him alone is due the true Prayer. And those on whom they call instead of Him answer them not at all. Their case is but like the case of him who stretches forth his two hands towards water that it may reach his mouth, but it reaches it not. And the prayer of a disbeliever is but a thing wasted.
[13:16] And to Allah submits whosoever is in the heavens and the earth willingly or unwillingly and like wise do their shadows in the mornings and the evenings.
[13:17] Say, ‘Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?’ Say, ‘Allah.’ Say, ‘Have you then taken instead of Him helpers who have no power for good or harm even for themselves?’ Say, ‘Can the blind and the seeing be equal? Or can darkness be equal to light? **Or, do they assign to Allah partners who have created the like of His creation so that the two creations appear similar to them?’ Say, ‘Allah alone is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Most supreme.’ **
[13:18] He sends down water from the sky so that the valleys flow according to their measure and the flood bears on its surface swelling foam. And from that which they heat in the fire, seeking to make ornaments or utensils, comes out a foam similar to it. Thus does Allah illustrate truth and falsehood. Now, as to the foam it goes away as rubbish and perishes but as to that which benefits men, it stays in the earth. Thus does Allah set forth parables.
Unquote.

In the light of the above clear verses, Quran/Islam makes it very clear that JesusYeshuaIssa could not create anything which could be not be clearly distinguishable from what GodAllahYHWH had already created.

Jesus/Yeshua/Issa therefore could only cure, in Quranic terms, with medicines or his prayers, such patients who were not incorrigible absolutely nor he could raise anybody from the dead except the near-dead by using medicines or prayers to GodAllahYHWH.

I think anybody who ponders over the verses mentioned above would agree with me.

Thanks

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Wikipedia is a fairly good reference.

And I suggest that you also watch this video.

I often get a chuckle out of TV advertisements. When an athletic hero says that i should use a certain underarm deodorant because it is the one that he uses, i cannot keep myself from laughing.

An athlete might be a professional at getting himself to sweat, but he is no expert in the science of human anatomy or chemistry. Give me a physician or a chemist who knows about what he is talking and i will listen to him over some athletic sweathog any day!

I think the same applies when trying to make a decision about the truth of more important matters, such as the historical reliability of the Biblical texts. Here is what one of the world’s most foremost biblical archaeologists William Foxwell Albright wrote:

We can already say emphatically that there is no longer any solid basis for dating any book of the New Testament after about A.D. 80, two full generations before the date between 130 and 150 given by the more radical New Testament critics of today. …William F. Albright (1891-1971), Ph.D., Litt.D., was one of the most respected archaeologist and scholars. He was an expert of Semitic languages from John Hopkins University, and president of the International Organization of Old Testament Scholars, and director of the American School of Oriental Research in Jerusalem.

 

[ralphinal]

I often get a chuckle out of TV advertisements. When an athletic hero says that i should use a certain underarm deodorant because it is the one that he uses, i cannot keep myself from laughing.

An athlete might be a professional at getting himself to sweat, but he is no expert in the science of human anatomy or chemistry. Give me a physician or a chemist who knows about what he is talking and i will listen to him over some athletic sweathog any day!

I think the same applies when trying to make a decision about the truth of more important matters, such as the historical reliability of the Biblical texts. Here is what one of the world’s most foremost biblical archaeologists William Foxwell Albright wrote:

We can already say emphatically that there is no longer any solid basis for dating any book of the New Testament after about A.D. 80, two full generations before the date between 130 and 150 given by the more radical New Testament critics of today. …William F. Albright (1891-1971), Ph.D., Litt.D., was one of the most respected archaeologist and scholars. He was an expert of Semitic languages from John Hopkins University, and president of the International Organization of Old Testament Scholars, and director of the American School of Oriental Research in Jerusalem.

I have never understood the idea that the Bible wasn’t finished before the fall of Jerusalem. The empiricle evidence alone is too much.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I have never understood the idea that the Bible wasn’t finished before the fall of Jerusalem. The empiricle evidence alone is too much.

Good point, Ralph. Jesus (pbuh) even predicts, as a prophet should, the future. He told his followers that not one stone of the Jewish Temple would remain standing on another.

This outrageous prediction came true in A.D. 70 when the Roman general Titus sacked the city, burnt the temple, and demolished it. Yet not one biblical writer points this out, nor do any biblical writers even record this event, which is one of the most catastrophic events in Jewish history.

 

[ralphinal]

Good point, Ralph. Jesus (pbuh) even predicts, as a prophet should, the future. He told his followers that not one stone of the Jewish Temple would remain standing on another.

This outrageous prediction came true in A.D. 70 when the Roman general Titus sacked the city, burnt the temple, and demolished it. Yet not one biblical writer points this out, nor do any biblical writers even record this event, which is one of the most catastrophic events in Jewish history.

I bet it has been discussed before, and I do not want to hijack this thread, but i wonder how non-Christians see that prophacy and the reason that it was important that the temple be destroyed

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I bet it has been discussed before, and I do not want to hijack this thread, but i wonder how non-Christians see that prophacy and the reason that it was important that the temple be destroyed

I don’t think 2Han will mind changing the subject. We may come back to it if he wants us to do so.

What do you believe was the reason the temple was destroyed in A.D. 70? (i’m assuming you mean God’s reason for allowing this to happen).

 

[ralphinal]

I don’t think 2Han will mind changing the subject. We may come back to it if he wants us to do so.

What do you believe was the reason the temple was destroyed in A.D. 70? (i’m assuming you mean God’s reason for allowing this to happen).

I think that the simple answer is that Christ’s death replaced the old system of sin offerings. After about 40 years, Christianity had spread enough that many people knew of the option of Christianity. Basically, the temple was not needed again.

Agree?

 

[hamba2han]

God mentions a miracle given to none other in the Qur’an but Jesus (pbuh), one which is quite parallel to how God Himself created Adam (pbuh). This miracle was one which none can argue it’s greatness. God mentions in the Qur’an that Jesus says:

“I create for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with God’s permission…” (Quran 3:49)

This miracle is not found in the New Testament, but it is found in the non-canonical ‘Infancy Gospel of Thomas’, “When this boy, Jesus, was five years old, he was playing at the ford of a rushing stream… he then made soft clay and shaped it into twelve sparrows… but Jesus simply clapped his hands and shouted to the sparrows: “Be off, fly away, and remember me, you who are now alive!” And the sparrows took off and flew away noisily.” … (Infancy Gospel of Thomas:2)

 

[paarsurrey]

God mentions a miracle given to none other in the Qur'an but Jesus (pbuh), one which is quite parallel to how God Himself created Adam (pbuh). This miracle was one which none can argue it's greatness. God mentions in the Qur'an that Jesus says:

Hi

I quote the verse again.

[3:50] And will send him (Jesus) as a Messenger to the Children of Israel with the Message, 'I come to you with a Sign from your Lord, which is, that I will fashion out for you a creation out of clay after the manner of a bird; then I will breath into it a new spirit and it will become a soaring being by the command of Allah; and I will heal the night-blind and the leprous, and I will quicken the dead, by the command of Allah; and I will announce to you what you will eat and what you will store up in your houses. Surely, therein is a Sign for you, if you are believers.

For correct understanding of the above verse, one should interpret it within the purview of:

Quran
[13:17] Say, ‘Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?’ Say, ‘Allah.’ Say, ‘Have you then taken instead of Him helpers who have no power for good or harm even for themselves?’ Say, ‘Can the blind and the seeing be equal? Or can darkness be equal to light? Or, do they assign to Allah partners who have created the like of His creation so that the two creations appear similar to them?’ Say, 'Allah alone is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Most supreme.’
Unquote

Thanks

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I think that the simple answer is that Christ’s death replaced the old system of sin offerings. After about 40 years, Christianity had spread enough that many people knew of the option of Christianity. Basically, the temple was not needed again.

Agree?

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

God mentions a miracle given to none other in the Qur’an but Jesus (pbuh), one which is quite parallel to how God Himself created Adam (pbuh). This miracle was one which none can argue it’s greatness. God mentions in the Qur’an that Jesus says:

“I create for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with God’s permission…” (Quran 3:49)

This miracle is not found in the New Testament, but it is found in the non-canonical ‘Infancy Gospel of Thomas’, “When this boy, Jesus, was five years old, he was playing at the ford of a rushing stream… he then made soft clay and shaped it into twelve sparrows… but Jesus simply clapped his hands and shouted to the sparrows: “Be off, fly away, and remember me, you who are now alive!” And the sparrows took off and flew away noisily.” … (Infancy Gospel of Thomas:2)

If a skeptic were to ask, “How do you know Jesus did this miracle?” then what would your answer be, 2Han?

 

[ralphinal]

2Han or others,
Two questions posed
First: Why did God instruct the Jewish people in teh sacrificial system and construction of the Temple to allow it to be destroyed in 70 A.D. with no real hope of it being rebuilt?

Second:

If a skeptic were to ask, “How do you know Jesus did this miracle?” then what would your answer be, 2Han?

from Socrates

 

[hamba2han]

If a skeptic were to ask, “How do you know Jesus did this miracle?” then what would your answer be

If I had seen it with my own eyes, then it would not be called ‘faith’, would it?

However, speaking of seeing something with our own eyes, would these skeptics care to explain which laws of Physics have enabled the tall, thin mosque minaret especially to be still standing at the epicentre of an earthquake measuring 7.4 on the Richter scale, when other much shorter and sturdier structures around it have been razed to the ground?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

If I had seen it with my own eyes, then it would not be called ‘faith’, would it? …

Are you saying that your faith in the words of the Quran is blind? or do you see some rationally sound and objective reason for believing only Allah could possibly be the author?

 

[hamba2han]

Are you saying that your faith in the words of the Quran is blind? or do you see some rationally sound and objective reason for believing only Allah could possibly be the author?

There are lots of “rationally sound and objective” reasons, one of which I have already pointed out here.

 

[ralphinal]

If I had seen it with my own eyes, then it would not be called ‘faith’, would it?

However, speaking of seeing something with our own eyes, would these skeptics care to explain which laws of Physics have enabled the tall, thin mosque minaret especially to be still standing at the epicentre of an earthquake measuring 7.4 on the Richter scale, when other much shorter and sturdier structures around it have been razed to the ground?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/425000/images/_425763_mosque_300.jpg

Hamba, what about the hotel beside it? Are Hiltons protected by God? The minuret can be explained using engineering and physics, and we do not know how structurally sound it is. I may be speaking out of school, but I think Socrates is looking for is proof that using reason only as your primary motive, can you arrive at the Koran as the inspired word of God.

It is said that some of the Greeks, using only logic, derived that there is one God, He is all good, and he and he alone is worthy of worship. That allowed Paul to reach out to them easier.

 

[Valke2]

2Han or others,
Two questions posed
First: Why did God instruct the Jewish people in teh sacrificial system and construction of the Temple to allow it to be destroyed in 70 A.D. with no real hope of it being rebuilt?

Second: from Socrates

I’ll give you one Jewish answer to the first question. Sacrficies were of course a mainstay of idolatorous religions prior to Judaism. Some of our sages suggest that God never really desired sacrifices, but He knew, especially after the Golden Calf, that Israel was predisposed to engaging in idoltorous behavior, (old habits are hard to break). So instead of prohibiting sacrificies, He made sure we legislated the What, Where, How and When of sacrifices, so that there could be do doubt that they were being done in recognition of the One God.

In other words, He said. "Listen, I’m not crazy about sacrifices but if you’re going to do them, you’re going to do them under my Rules.

So if we are to take that view, as Jews, then the destruction of the Temple, which resulted in the cessation of sacrifices, resulted in a shift in worship that perhaps was closer to what God wanted. Prayer, intent, and deeds (mitzvot).

P.S. When I said I’d give “one Jewish” answer, I meant that it was one of several. By no means is it “the jewish answer”.

 

[hamba2han]

Hamba, what about the hotel beside it? Are Hiltons protected by God? The minuret can be explained using engineering and physics, and we do not know how structurally sound it is. I may be speaking out of school, but I think Socrates is looking for is proof that using reason only as your primary motive, can you arrive at the Koran as the inspired word of God.

It is said that some of the Greeks, using only logic, derived that there is one God, He is all good, and he and he alone is worthy of worship. That allowed Paul to reach out to them easier.

Like I have previously mentioned, it is not only mosques that occasionally survive natural disasters but other religious structures as well.

Perhaps the apartment block next to the mosque contained a religious school or something, who knows?

Anyhow, that is not the real issue.

If you wish to test the extreme improbability of the minaret surviving the earthquake, you can do this very simple experiment.

Place the following 3 things upright on a table:

1. a thick book representing the apartment block
2. a small box representing a residential house
3. a pencil balanced on it’s end representing the minaret

Now try shaking the table gently at first and then gradually more robustly and see how many times you can make the small box topple without making the pencil fall as well?

One really does not need to have a Ph.D. in engineerring in order to figure out the improbability of this event.

 

[ralphinal]

Valke,
That answer is logical. Is it the most likely of the bunch? Also, how does it line up with those who want to rebuild the temple and restart the sacrificial system?

Hamba,
The problem with your experiment is two fold. First, it does not take into account the resonance or torsional rigidity of the structures. Secondly, the earth does not so much shake in an earthquake as it move is waves. That being the case, the more narrow structure can ride the crests and troughs better than the larger one that has part of its structure up and part down. I can show you pictures of non-religious buildings that survived disasters. Many of the highrise hotels in teh wake of the tsunami stood with minimal damage. I’ve also asked this before in wake of this type of post: how many holy, devout Muslims died in the tsunami or earthquake or the recent typhoon? If the answer is more than zero, what have you proven?