Chose to use artificial insemination - now what?

[Medicusverum]

Question Littledeb…where can you find a Catholic Infertility clinic in Ontario Canada?

The International Institute of Restorative Reproductive Medicine has launched an online service to help patients seeking answers and referrals for reproductive health issues anywhere in the world. Just log onto the website www.reproductiveinstitute.com and go to the For Patients Section where you will find a patient inquiry form.

We do have a clinic in Toronto which coordinates the care in Ontario. The physician or clinic you will be referred to will offer NPT services (NaProTechnology), which was developed by the Pope Paul VI Institute.

I hope that’s helpful! Feel free to contact me if there’s any other questions!

Sincerely,

Tracey

 

[Mom2Girls]

That’s my idea of Christianity. So for you to say you are going to leave the Church, if you can not be accepted, seemed exactly opposite of the idea of Christianity.

How can one stay if I don’t believe I have done anything wrong? How can I be accepted in a catholic church if I do not believe in this ideal? w I hear what people are saying, I get it but don’t agree, wouldn’t it be easier on me if I did.

Then there is you, still continually trying to let yourself be right, instead of just asking for forgiveness and moving on. You are so very blessed by God, but you are willing to reject that for your own pride or misunderstanding.

It’s not a matter of being ‘right’ if I felt wrong or guilty I would confess, I don’t. I am not sure how I can make that any clearer. This has been on my plate so to speak for 4 years this is not something new to my thoughts. I do not believe it is right to attend church if I can’t full respect it’s position. This is why I felt it may be a more suitable option for me to go elsewhere.

I’m angered by the idea of it.

It’s hard to see a situation to the full extent if you have not been there. Infertility is a pain I do not wish on anyone. It is also one that is very hard to understand if you have not been there. The pain does not leave, the feelings of inadequacy don’t just disappear and the road I chose was far from the ‘easy way out’. I understand and respect your position but I feel it is wrong to confess (as I have said earlier) something I don’t feel remorse for. I can’t make myself feel remorse and I am only being honest.

At any rate, I am sure this is something we could go on and on about. If my positions changes I will be sure to update but I feel my posts are repeating themselves, I apologize.

 

[Holly3278]

Well, the next step, if you haven’t already done so, is to go to confession and confess this. But you must be truly sorry for what you have done as well. Also, I would try get your frozen embryos adopted out or something rather than let them be thrown away because they are human beings with souls.

 

[Mom2Girls]

Well, the next step, if you haven’t already done so, is to go to confession and confess this. But you must be truly sorry for what you have done as well. Also, I would try get your frozen embryos adopted out or something rather than let them be thrown away because they are human beings with souls.

Please read the ENTIRE thread if you are going to comment. Comments like this derail the thread. ** THERE ARE NO EMBRYOS, THERE NEVER WAS.** I had my husbands sperm injected into my uterus! No eggs left my body!!

 

[Holly3278]

Please read the ENTIRE thread if you are going to comment. Comments like this derail the thread. ** THERE ARE NO EMBRYOS, THERE NEVER WAS.** I had my husbands sperm injected into my uterus! No eggs left my body!!

Wow. Sorry. You don’t have to bite my head off.

 

[elliejanba]

It’s not a matter of being ‘right’ if I felt wrong or guilty I would confess, I don’t. I am not sure how I can make that any clearer. This has been on my plate so to speak for 4 years this is not something new to my thoughts. I do not believe it is right to attend church if I can’t full respect it’s position. This is why I felt it may be a more suitable option for me to go elsewhere.

I understand this. I think maybe you should try to talk to not just your priest, but perhaps even your Bishop. It seems like you feel the procedure itself should be accepted by Catholic Church. Since you have used your husband’s sperm and your own egg and conceived in your own uterus. (Is that correct?)

I do think that medical technologies are there to help us. I would try to have a discussion with someone who understands the medical procedure and the religious standpoint. Perhaps there is a Catholic medical hospital in the area?

Then if there reasoning has no logic, or no standing by the scripture, then just pray about it. And move on, don’t dwell on it, the Catholic Church isn’t perfect. No organization is and try to inform others about what you found out.

 

[Mom2Girls]

Wow. Sorry. You don’t have to bite my head off.

I responded to your PM as well as here -

Sorry you felt as though your head was bit but I have been trying to get help with this specific situation and there are other posts about embryos. There are also several responses explaining exactly what procedure I used in detail, I have put my personal detailed private info out there for people to explain and others come in and make assumptions, its upsetting. Even the first post states I was inseminated with my husbands sperm. People see fertility treatment and automatically think frozen babies ad eggs being destroyed which is so very far from the procedure I used.

 

[Mom2Girls]

Since you have used your husband’s sperm and your own egg and conceived in your own uterus. (Is that correct?)

This is correct.

ETA - I am not sure if you were asking me if the descripton of the procedure is correct or if I believe it should be accepted? I was answering on the basis of the procedure description. As for being an acceptable practice with in the Catholic Church obviously I struggle with its position but that is obviously not for me to decide.

I do think that medical technologies are there to help us. I would try to have a discussion with someone who understands the medical procedure and the religious standpoint. Perhaps there is a Catholic medical hospital in the area?

There is and I have an open network, I had not thought of that, I will look into that. Thank you.

 

[nablaise]

I am not sure if this is in the right section, I apologize if it is not. My husband and I have been struggling with our faith for some time. We are both catholic. We have been married for nine years. The most important thing to both of us was having a family. After trying to create a family for 2+ years we knew something was wrong and sought out the advice of a doctor. After several tests it was confirm that we were unable to conceive. Our chances were less than 1% without help. Our faith told us that the options available to us to conceive a child were immoral. After another year of trying conventionally we chose to do what we needed to do to have a family. I used infertility drugs and was inseminated with my husband’s sperm. I used this method twice and have two beautiful little girls. Personally I do not regret or feel guilty for my choices. My husband and I have struggled with our faith since this all began. I feel these are the children we were meant to have and this road has led us to them. However I miss my faith and my church community. We have not been involved with the church in a few years because of these differences. I don’t know where to go from here. I cannot ask for forgiveness as our priest suggests. To me I would be saying my children were a sin and I refuse to do that, I don’t feel that way. Is there common ground or is this it? Where do my children fit into all of this?

In the Bible we have many childreen and relationships which occured out of sins.

• We have the cannanites who according to some schoolars are results of incest between Ham and his mother.
• We have Moabites and Ammonites who are a result of incest between Lot and his doughters.
• We have Salomon who is a son of Batsheba and David. Batsheba belonged to an other man whom David got killed so he can marry her.
• and Finally we have Jesus who have ancestors from all of the above.

So my conclusion is that Childreen are often a sign of God’s mercy, like Jesus, we are called to redeem our (of course this does not apply to Jesus) sins and the sins of all our ancestors which are part of who we are.

Childreen are often the greater good that God makes out of an evil act.
An other example is rape.

God allowed your doughters to be born because throught them in Christ he can your sin can be forgiven and repaired if they are willing to contribute. But they are NOT sign that what you did was not a sin. They are signs of God trying everything to forgive you.

It is in this sens that one day we will surely find ourselves with clones, and childreen from all other kinds of ways which are deeply immoral. A child is always a sign of God’s love and mercy.

I think you should confess the grave sin of putting God to test and ask God to bless your childreen though he did already by giving them life. You can also get them babtised.

God bless

 

[NancyCNM]

I hate to burst some bubbles out there, but IUI - Intrauterine Insemination- is NOT a sin.

It is actually one of the licit methods of infertility treatment. The methods of IUI are varied, and there is more than one way to accomplish the “total” of IUI, but in general, I repeat, it is licit.

Details can get complicated, but a normal lay person would not necessarily know all of the options licitly available for the procedure itself.

So- in short, my guess is that there was not full knowledge, full consent, or full understanding- because I am reading that the original poster did look for answers and alternatives and seemed to have settled upon one based on that information.

---

My advice- go to priest that you feel comfortable talking to, explain the situation, and knowlege and/or information about the procedure, then also explain you wish to seek sacramental confession for the issues you ae truly sorry for- whatever they may be, and even exclusionary from this particular procedure if you must. You can explain you are unsure and do not mean to make an incomplete confession, but on the other hand do not fully understand why or if you should confess this as a sin. Honesty is the best policy.

The deal is this though- God is the only one who can judge if it is a sin or not. Sometimes people “confess” things that are not really sin- but the priest still absolves them, just in case and because it has been requested, and because they can not judge themselves all the time whether it is a true sin or not.

Please don’t leave the church over this. Even if the procedure had been gravely sinful, ie hurtful and separating us from God, that does not mean you regret your children. Regardless, the children are still a gift of God- and I am guessing it was not your direct intent to sin. I am betting heavily on the lack of understanding…

Nancy, CNM

 

[joandarc2008]

I hate to burst some bubbles out there, but IUI - Intrauterine Insemination- is NOT a sin.

It is actually one of the licit methods of infertility treatment. The methods of IUI are varied, and there is more than one way to accomplish the “total” of IUI, but in general, I repeat, it is licit.

Details can get complicated, but a normal lay person would not necessarily know all of the options licitly available for the procedure itself.

So- in short, my guess is that there was not full knowledge, full consent, or full understanding- because I am reading that the original poster did look for answers and alternatives and seemed to have settled upon one based on that information.

---

My advice- go to priest that you feel comfortable talking to, explain the situation, and knowlege and/or information about the procedure, then also explain you wish to seek sacramental confession for the issues you ae truly sorry for- whatever they may be, and even exclusionary from this particular procedure if you must. You can explain you are unsure and do not mean to make an incomplete confession, but on the other hand do not fully understand why or if you should confess this as a sin. Honesty is the best policy.

The deal is this though- God is the only one who can judge if it is a sin or not. Sometimes people “confess” things that are not really sin- but the priest still absolves them, just in case and because it has been requested, and because they can not judge themselves all the time whether it is a true sin or not.

Please don’t leave the church over this. Even if the procedure had been gravely sinful, ie hurtful and separating us from God, that does not mean you regret your children. Regardless, the children are still a gift of God- and I am guessing it was not your direct intent to sin. I am betting heavily on the lack of understanding…

Nancy, CNM

Amen

God bless,

 

[LittleDeb]

I hate to burst some bubbles out there, but IUI - Intrauterine Insemination- is NOT a sin.

It is actually one of the licit methods of infertility treatment. The methods of IUI are varied, and there is more than one way to accomplish the “total” of IUI, but in general, I repeat, it is licit.

Details can get complicated, but a normal lay person would not necessarily know all of the options licitly available for the procedure itself.

So- in short, my guess is that there was not full knowledge, full consent, or full understanding- because I am reading that the original poster did look for answers and alternatives and seemed to have settled upon one based on that information.

Well, you are close here. It would be more accurate to say that IUI is not illicit. At this point in discussion, there are only aspects of it that are in fact licit. For example, taking hormones to release more eggs has been defined as licit. IUI, the actual insemination, is allowed, but only in the context of a natural marital act. Most IUIs are not done in the context of a marital act. IUI in and of itself is still being debated, but has yet to be defined as licit. Since it is still not fully understood, it is tolerated at this point.

What has been defined as illicit is harvesting the sperm through inherently evil means. Masturbation is and always will be, illicit. Every child must still be conceived within the context of a natural marital act. The Church has even defined that as the child’s right. But otherwise I would agree with you. The OP was not given licit options so was not able to give full consent.

The Church has not set up a lot of roadblocks to the infertile. The Church has instead, done much to advance knowledge and options for the infertile. The so-called “roadblocks” are in place to keep marriage as marriage. Masturbation does not belong in marriage in any context. It gets people believing in things that destroy marriage. Basically people start thinking, “Well, if masturbation is okay to harvest sperm, then there must be exceptions in other areas too.” This is commonly known as a slippery slope.

 

[NancyCNM]

I did not wish to inquire on a public list about the complete personal details of the OP’s procedure, as I think that goes beyond the intended scope of this forum.

I just wanted to let folks know that there ARE LICIT means of obtaining IUI, INCLUDING the collection of the semen.

Masturbation is NOT the only way to collect the semen. I am sure, if they had been told the alternatives, they would have chosen the most licit way of collection, but I am not here to judge. The fact is that only discussion with a priest, that is open and honest can help with this situation.

I will also say that it can be any Catholic priest, and if one does not feel comfortable discussing it, then find another. If the quest is for information, understanding, and forgiveness, then WE should be assisting the OP with finding a way to get to those places.

Nancy Sandrock CNM
www.holyfamilybirthcenter.com

 

[Medicusverum]

How can one stay if I don’t believe I have done anything wrong? How can I be accepted in a catholic church if I do not believe in this ideal? w I hear what people are saying, I get it but don’t agree, wouldn’t it be easier on me if I did.

It’s hard to see a situation to the full extent if you have not been there. Infertility is a pain I do not wish on anyone. It is also one that is very hard to understand if you have not been there. The pain does not leave, the feelings of inadequacy don’t just disappear and the road I chose was far from the ‘easy way out’. I understand and respect your position but I feel it is wrong to confess (as I have said earlier) something I don’t feel remorse for. I can’t make myself feel remorse and I am only being honest.

Dear Mom2Girls,

My heart goes out to you in your dilemma! As a physician working in reproductive medicine I have seen countless patients in your situation. I have also seen them struggle to make difficult decisions, so powerful is the desire to have a baby…and I have seen them torn apart when they end up making a decision that they can’t regret but know is wrong.

The difficulty is that the only choices you are given by most doctors are those which bypass the natural ability to conceive, rather than try and correct the problem. When every doctor tells you there are no other options you soon listen to them. The end result is the serious threat of losing your Faith…

This is why artificial reproductive technologies (IUI, IVF etc) are so devastating…they take what is inherently good (desire for a child) and twist it to lead people away from the Truth. It is also why it is so important for us to let people know there are EFFECTIVE alternatives (yes, even for most cases of male infertility!).

I won’t go on about how and why though most of the information is on the website reproductiveinstitute.com. In your situation, I often offer the following suggestions:

1. Do NOT stop going to Mass…you may not be able to receive Communion (talk to your confessor) but keep attending. You need the Graces offered.
2. Pray for God to open your heart to why IUI is sinful and to make you remorseful for having resorted to this option, recognizing that there may have been a number of extenuating circumstances. Remember,unfortunately, your money directly supported an industry that has no problem promoting procedures in which many unborn children die. Also, your actions may have inadvertently led other people to see ART as being acceptable. Depending on how far they are misled this could have dire consequences for them and their offspring.
3. Find a GREAT spiritual director/confessor who will not let you off the hook for this…which would be like a personal trainer that says “no one sit up is fine if that’s all you can do!”. Remember your soul is IMPORTANT! You will HAVE to WORK on this for a long time and put a great deal of effort into it.
4. Understandably, you are still deeply hurt by the wounds of infertility…you need to heal and this is part of that process.
5. Recognize that you have been duped into believing some of the most effective lies ever told to our society - that your only choice for a baby required THIS immoral option. You should be angry at them for their deception, which put you in the situation of feeling like you should choose between your Faith and their science.
6. Make yourself familiar with other options - maybe you’re called to have another child sometime in the future using NPT or similar restorative options.

Know that I will pray for you…please let us know how you are doing! Feel free to contact me if I can be of any help!

God Bless,

Tracey MD

 

[Medicusverum]

I hate to burst some bubbles out there, but IUI - Intrauterine Insemination- is NOT a sin.

It is actually one of the licit methods of infertility treatment. The methods of IUI are varied, and there is more than one way to accomplish the “total” of IUI, but in general, I repeat, it is licit.

Nancy, CNM

Hello Nancy,

I’m sorry, I just want to clarify this misunderstanding. IUI as practiced today is NOT considered a licit method as it most often separates the marital act from procreation and involves processing semen. Early on there was some debate that said it MIGHT be licit (truly assisting, not replacing, the reproductive act) if a couple were able to somehow have intercourse and then collect and inject the sperm at that moment. Given other effective options now available and licit it is generally considered a moot point. The reality is that this description of a method that COULD have been licity is NOT how IUI is practiced in the reproductive medical community and I wouldn’t want anyone to be misled. Knowingly choosing IUI would be sinful (all the normal ‘sinning’ criteria applied of course!).

A patient’s best bet is to work with a doctor trained in restorative reproductive techniques like NPT (NaProTechnology).

I love all your other suggestions and hope Mom2Girls is able to follow through on them.

God Bless,

Tracey MD

 

[Seatuck]

I did not wish to inquire on a public list about the complete personal details of the OP’s procedure, as I think that goes beyond the intended scope of this forum.

I just wanted to let folks know that there ARE LICIT means of obtaining IUI, INCLUDING the collection of the semen.

Masturbation is NOT the only way to collect the semen. I am sure, if they had been told the alternatives, they would have chosen the most licit way of collection, but I am not here to judge. The fact is that only discussion with a priest, that is open and honest can help with this situation.

I will also say that it can be any Catholic priest, and if one does not feel comfortable discussing it, then find another. If the quest is for information, understanding, and forgiveness, then WE should be assisting the OP with finding a way to get to those places.

Nancy Sandrock CNM
www.holyfamilybirthcenter.com

IUI is listed as one of the methods that are waiting for a ruling. It is not licit and it is not illicit. This was already covered in this thread. The church leaves it for our own good judgement as long as the semen is collected morally. However, until the church rules otherwise it is not correct to say that the procedure is licit.

usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/treatment.htm

 

[LittleDeb]

I did not wish to inquire on a public list about the complete personal details of the OP’s procedure, as I think that goes beyond the intended scope of this forum.

I just wanted to let folks know that there ARE LICIT means of obtaining IUI, INCLUDING the collection of the semen.

Masturbation is NOT the only way to collect the semen. I am sure, if they had been told the alternatives, they would have chosen the most licit way of collection, but I am not here to judge. The fact is that only discussion with a priest, that is open and honest can help with this situation.

I will also say that it can be any Catholic priest, and if one does not feel comfortable discussing it, then find another. If the quest is for information, understanding, and forgiveness, then WE should be assisting the OP with finding a way to get to those places.

Nancy Sandrock CNM
www.holyfamilybirthcenter.com

With this I agree!! Great post! Our purpose is to help the OP reconcile.

The OP has already stated that the sperm was harvested through masturbation so I was addressing that in particular.

 

[Cristiano]

Dear Mom2Girls:
sometimes a man can have relations with his wife just out of lust. The consequence of such an act can result in a child. Is the child a blessing? Yes! Did the man committed a sin? Yes! I think that this scenario might not be that unusual compared to yours. It might look more acceptable because there is less practical evidence of sinfulness, but in reality is still the same to God’s eyes.

Just because the effect is a good thing, that does not imply that the cause is a good thing too. Remember that every wrong is a cause for greater good; however we cannot justify doing wrong for the purpose of achieving something good. We also must remember that we can never reject the good coming out of sin, that would be an even bigger sin.

In your case, I have the impression that in order to accept culpability you feel that you have to somehow reject the greater good that came out of it. Do not go down that path!

I am saying this without knowing if you sinned or not. I am completely ignorant when it comes to the morality of this kind of medical treatments.

 

[NancyCNM]

No offense Dr. Tracey, as we are both on the same side…

But do you think it is appropriate, in a public forum especially, to accuse the OP of helping a “specific” industry, when WE don’t know all the details - the hows, whys and wherefores of this person’s situation? Nor do we know who helped with this, where the services were performed, or even how the procedure itself was handled.

I know that you have good intentions, but please try to keep your answers a bit more general, to the infertile population as a whole- not to this specific person.

For this poster, and for this forum, I think it is important not to presume that this person participated in IUI in a totally illicit manner. The fact is WE DO NOT KNOW all the details.

As a “whole”, yes there are issues- numerous ones. BUT many of these are debatable by even theologins. It is good to point out what the issues are in general, but PLEASE, in the interest of charity, do not presume this particular poster 1. knew about all this, or 2. even participated in all of it.

Speaking in terms of the industry of Reproductive Technology as a whole- yes, we can both agree, as I think most Catholics with specific knowlege can- there are morally reprehensible things that happen there, and the treatment of women and their spouses is less than ideal at times.

The fact is that providers who are able to provide counseling and help with infertility in a manner consistent with the teaching of the church are few and far between. There is “in-fighting” and arguing, even amoungst those who utilize different NFP methods. The folks who work with one method, are very medical and make it hard for non-physicians to be credentialled and get publicity as a “trained medical consultant”, even though the non-physicians must take the same exact training and pass the same testing. I was not going to point out names, but you probably have a good idea. Personally, I am not “allowed” to tell people that I have passed the test, and have not been given the certificate, because I have not been able to complete the “numbers” required for teaching part of the program for certification- because I am a provider.

The point is, it would be great if we could all just work together, answer questions in the spirit in which they are asked, and help each other and the clients know what the options are, and gently point them to explore the Theology of the Body, the SPICE components- to help them discern, together as a couple, and in prayer, what God is calling them to do.

This particular poster (OP) is past the doing…and seems to want understanding- she is questioning. You did a good job of pointing some things out that may have not previously been considered by the OP, but they were all done in such a way that it could be construed as if they were fact, and not just possibilities/probabilities.

Perhaps just pointing out problems that are inherent in the Reproductive technology area in general would be helpful, but without assuming that this is where and what the individual had to work with. There are some very good Catholic Reproductive Endocrinologists around! Don’t put all of them in the same pot.

There are also very good OB’s, FP’s, CNM’s and other Nurse-Practitioners out there, as well as a few PA’s that are able to help with infertility issues.

Nancy Sandrock, CNM
www.holyfamilybirthcenter.com

 

[Tracyms1974]

In Mom’s defense it was her husband’s sperm. The children are biologically theirs. It was just the method that was an issue.

God bless,

What my issue with the whole fertility clinic thing is this: Why financially contribute to a business that participates in that sort of crazy thing. That’s what I meant. Like I wouldn’t go to a dry cleaner if I found out one day that said dry cleaner was a front for money laundering or something like that. But that’s just me. Other people may not have the need to “boycott” in that way.

For the OP, there are times that I have gone to confession and not been sorry for my sins. I went out of pure obligation. My priest says this is called imperfect contrition. Not saying that you need to for this situation, now that i’ve read some of the other posts, but for other sins, maybe, you can remember that. I think its good to go to confession even if you are not sorry in the hopes that one day you will understand and you will go because you are sorry. I hope I am making some sense here.

Tracy