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Liraco
Guest
Always good to know what other Christians think, so thank you for that.
It’s quite clear that the poster doesn’t understand Church’s words properly because she doesn’t teach a “works salvation”, just like Paul says that merely following the old law doesn’t grant one salvation. The articles makes this presumption clear:
“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven” (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1). Indulgences in no way forgive sins. They deal only with punishments left after sins have been forgiven.
Of course if you deny purgatory then I can see why you’d see no point to an indulgence. Still, that’s no reason to teach falsehoods about the Church nor a reason to NOT learn the truth about what she teaches.
It’d be interesting to see this article rewritten with a proper understanding of Catholic teaching on indulgences instead of falsehoods like “earning salvation”.
As Bishop Fulton Sheen used to say: God love you.
Which is why we follow His Church and no other.
It’s quite clear that the poster doesn’t understand Church’s words properly because she doesn’t teach a “works salvation”, just like Paul says that merely following the old law doesn’t grant one salvation. The articles makes this presumption clear:
Perhaps it’s the thought that the words “prayer” and “worship” are synonymous that they think we don’t give properly praise Him because we “worship idols”?
If there is nothing new, then why did this train of thought appear 1,500 years after Jesus founded His Church contradicting the authority He gave to it?
“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven” (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1). Indulgences in no way forgive sins. They deal only with punishments left after sins have been forgiven.
Of course if you deny purgatory then I can see why you’d see no point to an indulgence. Still, that’s no reason to teach falsehoods about the Church nor a reason to NOT learn the truth about what she teaches.
It’d be interesting to see this article rewritten with a proper understanding of Catholic teaching on indulgences instead of falsehoods like “earning salvation”.
As Bishop Fulton Sheen used to say: God love you.
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Sellers1
Guest
If it is such a false understanding, why then do Catholics argue so vehimately against salvation by grace alone through faith alone? Seems to me like you are trying to have it both ways.Always good to know what other Christians think, so thank you for that.
Which is why we follow His Church and no other.
It’s quite clear that the poster doesn’t understand Church’s words properly because she doesn’t teach a “works salvation”, just like Paul says that merely following the old law doesn’t grant one salvation. The articles makes this presumption clear:
Perhaps it’s the thought that the words “prayer” and “worship” are synonymous that they think we don’t give properly praise Him because we “worship idols”?
If there is nothing new, then why did this train of thought appear 1,500 years after Jesus founded His Church contradicting the authority He gave to it?
“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven” (Indulgentarium Doctrina 1). Indulgences in no way forgive sins. They deal only with punishments left after sins have been forgiven.
Of course if you deny purgatory then I can see why you’d see no point to an indulgence. Still, that’s no reason to teach falsehoods about the Church nor a reason to NOT learn the truth about what she teaches.
It’d be interesting to see this article rewritten with a proper understanding of Catholic teaching on indulgences instead of falsehoods like “earning salvation”.
As Bishop Fulton Sheen used to say: God love you.
S
StrawberryJam
Guest
I would like some clarity here also. Isn’t praying by itself something one does if one has grace and faith?
Isn’t reading the bible for spiritual reasons also done if one had grace and faith?
Are these actions considered to be works?
This is confusing.
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M0nkey
Guest
Catholics do not object to grace alone, it’s faith alone that is heretical. To say that you must have faith alone is to strip away grace working through love; while faith is important faith without love (works) is dead. Not to mention a logical fallacy, let’s say for example that I have faith, can that faith alone show my love for God? What about the word faith, isn’t that works in it of itself? Surely faith and follow through are inseparable.
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Sellers1
Guest
If you have true faith in someone, you will do what they ask you to do. Christ tells us all throughout the Gospels to do what he asks. If we have faith in him, we will do these things. But, it is our faith in him that saves us, not the works themselves.
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Sellers1
Guest
They are done in correspondance with our faith, they are all done because of our faith. Faith without works is dead.
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M0nkey
Guest
Hence that is not faith alone. In addition, it is God who saves not because of anything that we do on our own; faith included.
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SedesDomi
Guest
True: it is God who saves, not our mere human faith.
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M0nkey
Guest
I’m trying to understand the purpose of this thread, can you tell me what indulgences mean to you in your own words? Perhaps there is an opportunity for proper catechesis. God Bless.
Sola fide, properly understood, teaches that we are justified by grace alone through faith alone, but that faith is never alone. Justification must always be followed by sanctification - a growth in the grace that makes it possible to have faith in the first place. For us to have a saving faith, it must be an active faith. We must participate in our sanctification by doing those things He has commanded that we do.
Sola fide is not Once Saved Always Saved. It is not cheap grace.
[bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#IV. Good Works.](http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#IV. Good Works.)
See my signature.
Quite frankly, for those who do not believe in Purgatory, I don’t see how ingulgences are relevant, as my understanding is they have nothing to do with salvation - you can’t buy yourself into heaven with them - but have to do with the amount of time/suffering(?) while in Purgatory.
I look forward to you improving my Catholic catecheis.
Jon
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
In his book, “Salvation Controversy,” Jimmy Akin from Catholic Answers discusses how Paul is using the term “works” as “works of Torah” not referring to doing good works like feeding the homeless, visiting the sick, donating money, or loving your neighbor but actually “works” in the context of Romans is works of the Mosaic Law. In other words, bathing before entering the synagogue, not eating pork, following the Sabbath, making sacrifices in the temple, not touching Gentiles, on and on…
In that context and framework, “works” takes on a whole new meaning. We are called to be saved through faith, God’s free grace, and to demonstrate and walk in that faith through our actions and love instead of earning salvation through following the Mosaic Law keeping festivals and specific rules laid down in the Torah.
That’s Akin’s angle in his book. It’s a well-written, fascinating book. I don’t know if any of you have checked it out yet? I read it about six or seven years ago. Interesting.
In that context and framework, “works” takes on a whole new meaning. We are called to be saved through faith, God’s free grace, and to demonstrate and walk in that faith through our actions and love instead of earning salvation through following the Mosaic Law keeping festivals and specific rules laid down in the Torah.
That’s Akin’s angle in his book. It’s a well-written, fascinating book. I don’t know if any of you have checked it out yet? I read it about six or seven years ago. Interesting.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Sola fide, properly understood, teaches that we are justified by grace alone through faith alone, but that faith is never alone. Justification must always be followed by sanctification - a growth in the grace that makes it possible to have faith in the first place. For us to have a saving faith, it must be an active faith. We must participate in our sanctification by doing those things He has commanded that we do.
Sola fide is not Once Saved Always Saved. It is not cheap grace.
[bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#IV. Good Works.](http://www.bookofconcord.org/fc-ep.php#IV. Good Works.)
See my signature.
Quite frankly, for those who do not believe in Purgatory, I don’t see how ingulgences are relevant, as my understanding is they have nothing to do with salvation - you can’t buy yourself into heaven with them - but have to do with the amount of time/suffering(?) while in Purgatory.
I look forward to you improving my Catholic catecheis.
Jon
Have you read the catechesis - which is what in part it is - in Paul VI’s Constitution “Indulgentiarum Doctrina” (1967) ? I recommend it strongly - I think it could help in calming concerns that Evangelicals have.
- [http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06id.htm (http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06id.htm)
When Luther protested, tens of thousands’ of days equivalent of remission of penance might be possible from a single act (a detail reflected in one of the 95 Theses). One reform later on was to cut down on how much time’s equivalent of remission of penance was possible. Now that the emphasis is on inward attitudes & can’t be focussed on a set length of time, the “accountancy” attitude has nothing to feed on. Not before time. Dante’s doctrine is far more profound than what Luther was rejecting.
Purgatory is not the beginning of the growth of indulgences - instead, Purgatory was drawn into the development of the practice & doctrine of canonical penance.
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peary2
Guest
Indulgences don’t forgive sin. It’s not like, “here, I’ll give you $1000 if God will forgive me”.
It’s a remission of the temporary effects of sin. To receive an indulgence you have to go to reconciliation (confession) first.
Sin has both a temporary and eternal effect on us.
The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), that’s the eternal penalty.
But there is also a temporary effect. An example:
To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly multiply your pain in
childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children (Genesis 3:16)
Another example: when you sin, it has an effect on you, just like when you smoke, you may become addicted.
" Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21-23).
Jesus gave the apostles the ability to forgive sin and eternal punishment in his name through his sacrifice. If he allows the apostles to forgive the eternal penalty, then of course they would be able to remit the temporal penalty.
Also, Matthew 18:18:
“Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Indulgences aren’t a money making scam. You can’t buy an indulgence. Although they were sold in the past, the Church has *never *approved of the sale of indulgences. It was *individuals *who decided to abuse indulgences.
Sacramental confession, Eucharistic communion and prayer for the intentions of Supreme Pontiff are the usual conditions for an indulgence.
There are many indulgences. None involve buying or selling but rather prayers, acts of charity, devotions etc.
Mortal sins are serious sins done with full knowledge and consent, and cut off your relationship with God. That means that you can commit a mortal sin by accident.
See 1 John 5:16-17; Luke 12:47-48
So much for Calvin…
It’s a remission of the temporary effects of sin. To receive an indulgence you have to go to reconciliation (confession) first.
Sin has both a temporary and eternal effect on us.
The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), that’s the eternal penalty.
But there is also a temporary effect. An example:
To the woman he said, ‘I will greatly multiply your pain in
childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children (Genesis 3:16)
Another example: when you sin, it has an effect on you, just like when you smoke, you may become addicted.
" Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (John 20:21-23).
Jesus gave the apostles the ability to forgive sin and eternal punishment in his name through his sacrifice. If he allows the apostles to forgive the eternal penalty, then of course they would be able to remit the temporal penalty.
Also, Matthew 18:18:
“Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Indulgences aren’t a money making scam. You can’t buy an indulgence. Although they were sold in the past, the Church has *never *approved of the sale of indulgences. It was *individuals *who decided to abuse indulgences.
Sacramental confession, Eucharistic communion and prayer for the intentions of Supreme Pontiff are the usual conditions for an indulgence.
There are many indulgences. None involve buying or selling but rather prayers, acts of charity, devotions etc.
Mortal sins are serious sins done with full knowledge and consent, and cut off your relationship with God. That means that you can commit a mortal sin by accident.
See 1 John 5:16-17; Luke 12:47-48
So much for Calvin…
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M0nkey
Guest
You mean “can’t commit mortal sin”.
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peary2
Guest
Yes. ‘Can’t’…whatever:shrug:You mean “can’t commit mortal sin”.
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Erich
Guest
Maybe a “real-world example” of indulgences might help… imagine your teenager just did something that got him/her grounded for a month. Now imagine that about halfway through the “grounding” you decide, based on his/her actions, that the penalty should be reduced to “time served”. You’ve effectively just granted an indulgence, since the temporal punishment was for a full month!
Purgatory can be thought of as the place in between “all have sinned” (Rom 3:23) and “nothing unclean will ever enter” (Rev 21:27).
Perhaps this will help:
Thanks, Erich. And that’s pretty much what I thought.
There have beeen some quotes in recent times that are of interest:
usccb.org/comm/archives/2006/06-212.shtml
As a state of cleansing, momentary, removing the effects of sin on the human person, by the fire of divine love (as opposed to any works of merit on my part). I could buy that.
It is an interesting topic, indeed.
Jon
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Persistent unrepentant sin will drive a wedge between a person and God.
We must utilize the grace of Jesus in order to follow his will.
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