Christ, creature or creator?

[Joshua27]

( Continued )

John 1:1-3 and Isaih 43:15, 44:2,24 disprove this. There are also many other verses in scripture to disprove your statement. The Son was NOT created, but is begotten of the Father.

1. Again “begotten” means “offspring; generated; child”, which means created, just like you are begotten of your parents, and I am of mine. But please…provide scripture to disprove this statement.
2. John 1:1-3…Like I posted in my last message, the beginning needs to be qualified, because I can say in truth that “in the beginning was my dad and mom and brother…my aunts and uncles”, because I’m talking about my beginning. Likewise, “in the beginning was satan”, so is satan also not created?
3. There are two entities spoken of in original scripture text: “Yehovah of Israel”(Yehovah/God of Israel/Angel of Yehovah) and “Yehovah Most High”(Yehovah of Hosts/Yehovah Elohim/Lord God/God of gods).

Isaiah 43:15 & 44:2,24 designate “Yehovah Most High”, in other words its the “Most High God” (Father) in reference, not the Son.

1. Colossians 1:18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything he might be pre-eminent.
2. Note this is Jesus speaking: Rev. 3:14 - And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

If the Son is God, then how can He be a representation of God. The Glory of the Son is the Glory of the Father for He had that Glory before all time.

Hebrews 1:3 says “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.”

If your response is in scripture please cite it for my reference, thanks.

An analogy or metaphor.

Where the evidence or proof that Colossians 1:15 is such? Please show…

All the Angels are “Morning Stars”. Even all those before they followed Satan and fell from earth.

A+

Yes. “Morning Star” is] Used as a metaphor to describe [Jesus’] position.

No, no, no. Sorry…You can’t define a term in one instance and then immediately redefine it moments later to fit your belief.

Either “Morning Stars” = “Angels” - and Jesus also calls himself an Angel - or the term must be defined as something else.

 

[Javl]

Joshua27:

I notice that you did not comment on the following:

Quote:
Creation was made through the Son, but not by him: John 1:3 - God created everything through him[Son], and nothing was created except through him.

John 1:1-3 and Isaih 43:15, 44:2,24 disprove this. There are also many other verses in scripture to disprove your statement. The Son was NOT created, but is begotten of
the Father.

Since you deny Jesus’ divinity and being God the Son, you will reject whatever answers I give to your comments. So,then, may I request your comments on the following?

1. Genesis 1:26, 11:7. Who is the “we” and “us” refered to?
2. The verses quoted above.
3. John 20:28
4. Isaih 9:6

Thank you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Dokimas]

Isaiah 14:12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

Not the morning star.​

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Seems likely these are actual stars. Ps 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.

 

[Dokimas]

Joshua,

Does God have any rules about Whom or what is to be worshiped?

Whose Blood was Shed for us?

Who is the Saviour?

 

[Dokimas]

Hebrews 1:3 says “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.”​

Joshua, you forgot to highlight the word ‘exact’.​

I was wondering about the radiance that comes from the sun. Isn’t part of the sun?

 

[Dokimas]

Josh, is the following verse true?

Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.​

These had the correct idea:

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.​

 

[Javl]

Josh, is the following verse true?

Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.​

These had the correct idea:

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.​

There is so much evidence in scripture ( the Bible ) which points to Jesus being God, and to the Holy Trinity, yet people deny their existence to fit their distorted views and theology. If they agree that Jesus is God and that the Holy Trinity exists, then their religion will collapse like a house of cards and poof their goes all that beautiful power and money. Let us do as St. Paul says and fight the good fight to bring the truth to them and make them see it. God will do the rest. Pray.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Dokimas]

There is so much evidence in scripture ( the Bible ) which points to Jesus being God, and to the Holy Trinity, yet people deny their existence to fit their distorted views and theology. If they agree that Jesus is God and that the Holy Trinity exists, then their religion will collapse like a house of cards and poof their goes all that beautiful power and money. Let us do as St. Paul says and fight the good fight to bring the truth to them and make them see it. God will do the rest. Pray.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

We can’t make them see anything.​

Plus, we all have blinders. The only difference is that some blinders blind people from bigger more important truths.

 

[Javl]

We can’t make them see anything.​

Plus, we all have blinders. The only difference is that some blinders blind people from bigger more important truths.

Yes. None are so blind like those that look but won’t see.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[zach_dunn]

Colossians 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation”

“Yes, he might be the image of the invisible God, but it does not necessarily mean they are one”… as the WTS holds.

I understand that being first born means being exalted, not necessarily being the eldest --but what stumped me is the verse that states further that “he is the first born of ALL CREATION” therefore, he really is created then? just being the most superior of them all?

Colossians 1:15-17
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him. And he is before all, and by him all things consist. [DRB]

Colossians 1:15-17
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. [KJV]

Colossians 1:15-17
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist. [NWT]

I actually find it rather funny when JWs quote Col 1:15 in support of their belief, because the following verses are very damning to their cause; it’s evident that they agree, too, why do you think they added the word “other” into the text four times? It’s not in any Greek texts, even the fact that they put it in brackets suggests that they simply added it in there . . . the thing is that these three verses clearly separate Christ from creation. When verse 16 says for by means of him all . . . things were created [NWT], how could all things have been created by Him if He Himself was created already? That seems like a trivial argument but it isn’t, something that the JWs subconsciously admit when they place four "other"s into the text.

 

[Javl]

I wonder if I’ll ever get an answer to my post #22?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Dokimas]

I wonder if I’ll ever get an answer to my post #22?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I’m looking for several answers too. I feel like a little kid on Christmas morning. I hope I don’t have to wait until Christmas for my answers.

 

[Javl]

I’m looking for several answers too. I feel like a little kid on Christmas morning. I hope I don’t have to wait until Christmas for my answers.

Don’t hold your breath. This is typical of JWs. They either have no answer, or ignore you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Dokimas]

Don’t hold your breath. This is typical of JWs. They either have no answer, or ignore you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

They want to give us their ‘papers’ yet won’t take ours.

 

[Joshua27]

lol! Some are so eager to jump to conclusions aren’t we (or maybe hoping I would leave)? It was just a day! I have a job too (Like I assume most of you do)…anyhow…

Joshua27:

I notice that you did not comment on the following:

Creation was made through the Son, but not by him: John 1:3 - God created everything through him[Son], and nothing was created except through him.

John 1:1-3 and Isaih 43:15, 44:2,24 disprove this. There are also many other verses in scripture to disprove your statement. The Son was NOT created, but is begotten of
the Father.

Wow…but I did, Javi. It was POINT #3 on my last post. I even gave the scriptural source to show what I was talking about…but here. I’ve give my response again:

3. There are two entities spoken of in original scripture text: “Yehovah of Israel”(Yehovah/God of Israel/Angel of Yehovah) and “Yehovah Most High”(Yehovah of Hosts/Yehovah Elohim/Lord God/God of gods).

ISAIAH 43:15 & 44:2,24 designate “Yehovah Most High”, in other words its the “Most High God” (Father) in reference, not the Son.

Since you deny Jesus’ divinity and being God the Son, you will reject whatever answers I give to your comments.

I do not deny that he has it again, NOW. I do not deny that he had it BEFORE becoming man. I will never reject Him as being the Son of God, but your own words (from earlier) stated that his “once possessed” [meaning he DID have it prior] divinity was emptied to become man. This is the hierarchy:

1. Most High God [called"El"]
2. Firstborn Son of God [called"logos" meaning “image”]
3. The angels of God “Elohim” literally means gods (lower case)]
4. Man[kind] [called “adam”]…then animals…earth.
5. …and the power that connects and binds all in the royal family is the most Holy Spirit.

---

1. THEN the Son became lower than the angels to save man[kind]…Relinquishing his position [divinity] and becoming man.
2. FINALLY, He Died and Resurrected…and for his act of love, the Father (Most High God) crowned him in glory above all things [except the Father, of course].

Hebrews 2:7 “Thou madest him a little lower than the angels [look at the hierarchy I gave]; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:”

Psalm 8:5 - “For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels [Look at the hierarchy again], and hast crowned him with glory and honour.”

So,then, may I request your comments on the following?

1. Genesis 1:26, 11:7. Who is the “we” and “us” refered to?
2. The verses quoted above.

Now we’re getting into the meat and potatoes of the conversation…

A)

Again, we must qualify what “the beginning” means. We know from scripture that Satan was there (before corruption was found in him), Jesus, and other angels (guardian cherubs). Now, the term used in Gen 1:26 - that’s falsely translated as “God” is “Elohim” in the original text, which - again - means “gods” [emphasis on “lower case”].

Throughout biblical history prophets and anointed ones who’d meet a messenger would bow down to them and refer to them as “my god” or “my lord” only to be corrected by the Elohim/Angel, saying that “one should only worship Most High God”.

B)

There is a heavenly council/assembly that rules over the world by the Elohim.

Psalm 82:1 God [El] has taken his place in the divine council 'adat el]; in the midst of the gods [elohim] he holds judgement.

“1 Kings 22:19-22” shares a great scene of the Holy Assembly called to order.

“Job 1:6” also shows the divine council commencing. Check it out!

C)

The nations were divided based on the numbers of “Elohim” [also called “angels”, “princes”, “**sons of God”) [Deuteronomy 32:8 & Psalms 82:6 & Psalm 29:1]…and the Elohim were charged with taking care of their nation.

Read “Daniel 10:20-21” for a reference to Gabriel struggling against the “prince of persia” before he received help from Michael so he could get to daniel to interpret his dreams.

Answer: God Most High was talking to his previously creating beings: Jesus, satan and His angels. [here are references that compare Most High to all the rest of the Elohim: Ex 15:11 & Psalms 95:3]

1. John 20:28

This means “my lord and my god”. Recall the hierarchy… the Messiah [whom you call Jesus] position is the Son of God. While this isn’t as high as Most High God, it’s much higher than our position and always deserves the respect I - and Thomas - gives Him.

1. Isaih 9:6

Isaiah 9:6 says ."…Wonderful, Councelor, The Mighty God, Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

And this is all correct! But how? Well, what does Jesus say?

John 5:43 - For I have come to you in my Father’s name, and you have rejected me. Yet if others come in their own name, you gladly welcome them.

…These names are His Father’s names. Any firstborn son who goes to handle’s his father’s business goes in the name of his father.

Matthew 28:18 - Jesus came and told his disciples, "I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth.

…The Father has all authority…and the Father gave the Son the Father’s authority to handle the Father’s business… The operative word, “given”, shows that the Son did not previously have this authority.

…I will answer Dokima’s challenges next.

 

[Joshua27]

Isaiah 14:12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

Not the morning star.​

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Seems likely these are actual stars. Ps 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork.

Your mistake is you think “lucifer” is a proper name, which it is not. “Lucifer” means “morning star”, and is not satan’s proper name. The original quote is “O morning star, son of dawn”.

Job 38:7 can be read, “When the lucifers sang together, and the sons of God shouted for joy?”

But your claim - that these are actual stars - would be a good conclusion, except Jesus says he’s a morning star too, along with Isaiah when talking about satan [the “fallen star”].

---

…In my last post I should’ve clarified that not every angel [Elohim] is on the council.

---

Joshua,

Does God have any rules about Whom or what is to be worshiped?

(I’m glad you asked) “Yes!” Commandment 1 and 2:

Exodus 20:2 - I am the LORD thy God [Yehovah Elohim/Most High], who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [Cmnd 1] Thou shalt have no other gods [Elohim] before Me.

Did anyone ever wonder why God [Most High] specifically says “no other gods”(lower case)? because there are other divine beings {angels, satan, Jesus} but there is only one “Most High”. Recall that satan’s entire plan is to ‘be like the Most High’

Isaiah 14:13-14

13 You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God. I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly [Another reference to heavenly council] in the far reaches of the north

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’

Exodus 20:3 [Cmnd 2] Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

4 Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me.

Whose Blood was Shed for us?

Who is the Saviour?

The one you call “Jesus”, the Messiah, the firstborn Son of God, emptied himself of his position and chose to shed his blood for us so that we may have everlasting life. He came lower than the angels, suffered and died, and was resurrected unto glory, and now sit at the right hand of the Father. THIS was his reward for being obedience and willingly (his choice) doing the will of the Father…because if satan could choose to be disobedient and go against God’s law, then most definitely the Son could, which make Jesus’ act of love even more special.

---

Hebrews 1:3 says “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.”​

Joshua, you forgot to highlight the word ‘exact’.​

I was wondering about the radiance that comes from the sun. Isn’t part of the sun?

I’ll bold “exact” if you want…Again “representation” means “image” or “creation” that is produced, so the Son was the "EXACT product of the Father.

Think about it this way: Any child that is born into this world is NOT the exact offspring of any parent because we receive 1/2 of our genes from each parent. the Most High God is the ONLY parent, so his offspring - his Son - will have 100% of his genes (so to speak).

To your question about the sun’s radiance: “No”, the radiance that comes from the Sun does not make up the sun, but is a product of the processes [work] the sun performs; Fusion and Fission at tremendous pressure. If these processes stopped the sun would be a ball of cold gas: [70%] hydrogen and [roughly 30%] Helium. We have these two gasses here on earth, but as you know they do not produce electromagnetic radiation [light] naturally. In fact, they’re invisible.

---

Josh, is the following verse true?

Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Yes. But notice the phrase “Through him”; not by him.

Picture this: You build a model airplane with your hands, and then show Javi and me. What would you say to us? Would you say, “my hands made this airplane”, or would you say,“I made this airplane”.

If you planted a garden using your bare hands, would you tell me, “my hands planted a garden” or “I planted a garden”.

The Son is the “right hand” of the Father. The Father commands his “right hand” to build; to work - like any of us command our hands to - but it is the Father who has created. The Son is the means; the “through which”…and the Father is the cause.

(To be continued)

 

[Joshua27]

These had the correct idea:

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

If you read from the beginning of chapter 5 [particularly John 5:1], you’ll note that there is a Feast, which the Jews are currently recognizing in Jerusalim.

As a point of reference, all Jewish feasts are considered - by Jews - to be Sabbath days (even though many do not fall on the 7th day [our Saturday]). This particular day was a feast day for the Jews, and the Jews - believing these feast days are also considered “rest days” - decreed that “no work is to be performed”…and yet Jesus performed healing work.

The point of the verse you source is to distinguish that the Jews had their law (to rest on all 7th days and ALSO all feast days), while Most High God has His Law (Cmnd 4: to rest only on all 7th days), similar to today: as many Christians have their law (to rest on all Sundays), while God - still - has His law (rest on all 7th days [our Saturday]).

The Jews were angry that Jesus was breaking the Law, but it was a law they established, not God (Most High).

If we read Jesus’ answer in John 5:19, He says (paraphrasing), “I do what I saw my Father do…”, pointing out that he works for ALL the first six days of the week, which is not what the Jews - to this day - do.

The Most High God worked every single day except the 7th [our Saturday], while the Jews also chose not to work on their Feast days (which, again, sometimes fell on days during the week).

— And to Javi —

I have never touted to be a JW…

However, so far on in my short time on this forum I have been labeled a JW, Gnostic, Protestant in disguise (by Catholics), Catholic in disguise (by protestants), a Dualist with a messianic complex. And yet I am exactly what my label suggests; Faithful.

…I wonder how many other names others will label me…

It’s unfortunate that many need to paint others into specific frames just to assume “oh, I see…that’s why he’s saying that”, instead of honestly considering what the person is actually saying, but you are right when you suggest that “we see but we don’t see”.

My primary reference will always be the bible, even though its text has been changed and skewed - and removed in many instances - over the years (based on the particular Christian religion who’s using it)…so I reread the original greek, hebrew and - when possible - aramaic translations to achieve truer understanding.

The original Word(s) of God is my Religion.

 

[Javl]

Thank you Joshua. I apologize if I appeared rude and crude. I have dealt with others who make a statement and then disappear or ignore my responses and questions. I inadvertantly placed you in that category. Now I know different. Again, apologies.

I assumed that you were JW since your statements and comments reflect exactly what the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society ( JWs ) believe and espouse. If , as you say, you are not, then I’m curious to find out where you did learn your theology.

As for the deity and creation of Christ, again if as you say that He was the first creation of the Father, then either we have a contradiction in scripture or John 1:1-3 is a lie. Now I know that there are no contradictions in scripture and, since scripture is inspired of God,
there can be no lies in it. I assume we both agree on this.

Therefore, I ask, how can the Logos or Word have created Himself? John 1:1-3 says that
*** “Nothing*** was MADE ( created ) that was NOT made by Him”… You say that the Logos was the Father’s first creation, if this is true, then John 1:1-3 cannot be true for we have a contradiction. Both statements cannot be true. Also if you claim that the Logos is “a god” and not God, then this violates the first commandment.

The truth or falsity of our statements, comments,etc. hinge on this.

And again, “begotten” does ** mean made or created.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem**

 

[Dokimas]

Your mistake is you think “lucifer” is a proper name, which it is not. “Lucifer” means “morning star”, and is not satan’s proper name. The original quote is “O morning star, son of dawn”.

Job 38:7 can be read, “When the lucifers sang together, and the sons of God shouted for joy?”

But your claim - that these are actual stars - would be a good conclusion, except Jesus says he’s a morning star too, along with Isaiah when talking about satan [the “fallen star”].

---

…In my last post I should’ve clarified that not every angel [Elohim] is on the council.

---

(I’m glad you asked) “Yes!” Commandment 1 and 2: In your own words, who can be worshiped? Who can’t be worshiped?

Did anyone ever wonder why God [Most High] specifically says “no other gods”(lower case)? because there are other divine beings {angels, satan, Jesus} but there is only one “Most High”. Recall that satan’s entire plan is to ‘be like the Most High’

I’m trying to find your direct answer to: Who shed His Blood for us? and Who is our Savior?

The one you call “Jesus”, the Messiah, the firstborn Son of God, emptied himself of his position and chose to shed his blood for us so that we may have everlasting life. He came lower than the angels, suffered and died, and was resurrected unto glory, and now sit at the right hand of the Father. THIS was his reward for being obedience and willingly (his choice) doing the will of the Father…because if satan could choose to be disobedient and go against God’s law, then most definitely the Son could, which make Jesus’ act of love even more special.

---

I’ll bold “exact” if you want…Again “representation” means “image” or “creation” that is produced, so the Son was the "EXACT product of the Father.

Think about it this way: Any child that is born into this world is NOT the exact offspring of any parent because we receive 1/2 of our genes from each parent. the Most High God is the ONLY parent, so his offspring - his Son - will have 100% of his genes (so to speak).

To your question about the sun’s radiance: “No”, the radiance that comes from the Sun does not make up the sun, but is a product of the processes [work] the sun performs; Fusion and Fission at tremendous pressure. If these processes stopped the sun would be a ball of cold gas: [70%] hydrogen and [roughly 30%] Helium. We have these two gasses here on earth, but as you know they do not produce electromagnetic radiation [light] naturally. In fact, they’re invisible. I think either you misunderstood my point or your wrong about the radiance (radiation) coming from the sun - it is part of the sun escaping its gravity.

---

Yes. But notice the phrase "Through him"; not by him.

Picture this: You build a model airplane with your hands, and then show Javi and me. What would you say to us? Would you say, “my hands made this airplane”, or would you say,“I made this airplane”.

If you planted a garden using your bare hands, would you tell me, “my hands planted a garden” or “I planted a garden”.

The Son is the “right hand” of the Father. The Father commands his “right hand” to build; to work - like any of us command our hands to - but it is the Father who has created. The Son is the means; the “through which”…and the Father is the cause. Was the Father’s Right Hand created?

(To be continued)

 

[Dokimas]

If you read from the beginning of chapter 5 [particularly John 5:1], you’ll note that there is a Feast, which the Jews are currently recognizing in Jerusalim.

As a point of reference, all Jewish feasts are considered - by Jews - to be Sabbath days (even though many do not fall on the 7th day [our Saturday]). This particular day was a feast day for the Jews, and the Jews - believing these feast days are also considered “rest days” - decreed that “no work is to be performed”…and yet Jesus performed healing work.

The point of the verse you source is to distinguish that the Jews had their law (to rest on all 7th days and ALSO all feast days), while Most High God has His Law (Cmnd 4: to rest only on all 7th days), similar to today: as many Christians have their law (to rest on all Sundays), while God - still - has His law (rest on all 7th days [our Saturday]). I think you missed the idea that the Jewish leaders knew Jesus made Himself equal with God. That, if untrue, would be blasphamy in the highest degree and much worse than not keeping the Sabaath.

The Jews were angry that Jesus was breaking the Law, but it was a law they established, not God (Most High).

If we read Jesus’ answer in John 5:19, He says (paraphrasing), “I do what I saw my Father do…”, pointing out that he works for ALL the first six days of the week, which is not what the Jews - to this day - do.

The Most High God worked every single day except the 7th [our Saturday], while the Jews also chose not to work on their Feast days (which, again, sometimes fell on days during the week).

— And to Javi —

I have never touted to be a JW…

However, so far on in my short time on this forum I have been labeled a JW, Gnostic, Protestant in disguise (by Catholics), Catholic in disguise (by protestants), a Dualist with a messianic complex. And yet I am exactly what my label suggests; Faithful. I try not to label anyone; if I labeled you, I’m sorry. I know little by labels, but a lot by discussions.

…I wonder how many other names others will label me… Are you discussing here with others or me? I’m responsible for me, not for others.

It’s unfortunate that many need to paint others into specific frames just to assume “oh, I see…that’s why he’s saying that”, instead of honestly considering what the person is actually saying, but you are right when you suggest that “we see but we don’t see”.

My primary reference will always be the bible, (and I hope to do the same. However, I know my ability will be limited until Heaven - end of 1 Cor 13) even though its text has been changed and skewed - and removed in many instances - over the years (based on the particular Christian religion who’s using it)…so I reread the original greek, hebrew and - when possible - aramaic translations to achieve truer understanding.

The original Word(s) of God is my Religion.