Christ, creature or creator?

[zach_dunn]

Joshua, what do you make of this passage?

Hebrews 1:6-11
And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” Of the angels he says, “Who makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire.” But of the Son he says, “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond thy comrades.” And, “Thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of thy hands; they will perish, but thou remainest; they will all grow old like a garment.”

There is so much evidence in this passage that alludes to Christ’s divinity (as in equal with the Father). First, it would seem God Himself broke His own first commandment when telling His angels to worship a mere creature, correct? You’ve stated in a previous post that God’s first commandment is that we worship no one but Him, because of this it would seem that God is calling His Son God as well. There is then the second bolded part where God directly calls His Son God and then the third bolded part where He does it again. I think the most convincing evidence here is Psalm 102:25-26:

Psalm 102:25-26
Of old thou didst lay the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They will perish, but thou dost endure; they will all wear out like a garment. Thou changest them like raiment, and they pass away.

This, of course, is said of God. God is the maker of heaven and earth, but in Hebrews the Psalm is applied to Christ. Christ taking part in creation makes perfect sense with Scripture:

In Genesis 1, we repeatedly see that God brings things into being by talking. Genesis 1:3 reads “And God said, ‘Let there be light’; and there was light.”. This shows that God’s Word creates, His Word does things which is supported by the passage from Isaiah. Now just what is this Word? It’s the second Person of the Holy Trinity, Jesus Christ which is shown by Jn 1:1-3 and Col 1:16-17. God the Son and God the Father are equal, which is what the Scriptures tell us. You have to ignore 2000 years of Christian history to come up with such an heterodox position such as yours.

Isaiah 55:11
o shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

Colossians 1:16-17
[F]or in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities–all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

As for you suggesting that there are lesser gods because of God’s first commandment (“You shall have no other gods before me.”), you are completely wrong. You have to completely deny Judaisms strict monotheism to get that idea, and you have to ignore all of the evidence in the Bible saying that there is only one God (go here for an extensive list of verses).

 

[SunnaB16]

Please! all of you Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians out there: Remember that Christ is BOTH creature AND Creator. He has His Divine nature because Hes the Fathers SelfKnowledge, generated in Eternity; and He has a human nature.
This is a DOGMA of the Church, and shows that there are no contradictions in Scripture regarding Who and What He is. Its not EITHER, OR; its BOTH, AND.

Because of the seeming confusion in Scripture about this issue (among others), we need the guidance of the Church with Her Holy Spirit-guided wisdom.
We can quote Scripture back and forth all day on this, but we wont (definitively) prove it one way or the other. We need the Churchs Magisterium to give us the answer.
Sola Scriptura doesn`t work.

 

[grace_singh]

FYI:

The WTBS also teaches that Jesus is the first creation of God since He is “the first-born of all creation”. And in His pre-existence is/was the Archangel Michael. All this is in contradiction to what is emphatically stated otherwise in the Bible.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

this sounds kind of close to Arianism. at least in the sense of Jesus being the first creation of God, created, and not the same as God Himself.

Christ tells us that He had glory with the Father before the world was made (John 17:5), that He and the Father are One and the same (John 10:28-30, John 14:6-9), and that we are to honor Him as we honor the Father (John 5:23).

all of these clearly show that Jesus is God, the Son. He is not God the Father, but He is the incarnate and eternal Word of God, and God Himself, made Man. He was not created, but rather through and by Him, the world was created.

the Arians and JWs read something into the text which is simply not there, namely that Christ is created. or that at some point not mentioned in the Bible, God (the Father) created Christ. not only does Scripture fail to mention this theory, it refutes it.

 

[Joshua27]

—To Javl & Dokima—

Thanks for the apologies, but it’s no problem. We’re having discussions about something of true importance to each of us. Any back-and-forth benefits the discussion (I think).

I’m curious to find out where you did learn your theology.

Short Version - I was/am a theological scholar:

• Born into Apostolic (father’s side) and Protestant [Baptist] (mother’s side) family
• Family members were officers in each religion, who require bro. & I to attend/study each
• Theological studies every weekend as kids…
• Sent through Catholic school (to get further perspective); excelled in religion classes
• After HS, tapped on shoulder by religion teacher to consider Catholic Brotherhood
• Considered Brotherhood, studied Catholic theology, early Church history, etc.
• After brotherhood consideration, (in college) studied eastern religions, Judaism, Islam
• Rounded out my theological studies with more Judaism.

You see…my family strongly believes in the power and purpose of biblical names and took my name from Joshua, Son of Nun (while my older brother’s name is David, from the King). So early on they wanted my brother and I to have futures as leaders in Church (in some capacity).

[It wasn’t what I wanted to do when I was little, but it’s now so much a part of my life.]

Along with being a theological scholar, I was also a math scholar. I don’t know how familiar you guys are with Calculus but in Calculus [crude explanation!] there’s a repeatable “averaging” [more like “mean”] process [called taking the Derivative] where one takes multiple “pieces” along the length of an unknown quantity - of a graph, area, or volume - in order to achieve the closest approximation of the thing you’re measuring. It is this process that allows for everything from measuring the area and volume of a pool, to analog and digital signal analysis.

In other words, it is “pieces” that form together to make the whole picture…and in studying theology, I realized that it’s the same process to understanding the truth.

I bring this up because I grew up exposed to multiple versions of the Bible, and multiple interpretations of The Word of God. The only thing I could be sure of - as a foundation and common denominator of truth - was the body of Christ.

A “body”; a “whole” is made of many different “pieces”. And like a body, no single piece can claim ownership of the whole…but all pieces must find their way back to each other before the end.

Prophesy speaks of “reuniting the many houses is (spiritual) Israel” in the last days, so if all scriptural text is inspired by God, this means “the many houses of Christianity and Judaism must find their way back to each other eventually”. Each has vital pieces of the whole truth, we can not get closer to the truth without each other.

As for the deity and creation of Christ, again if as you say that He was the first creation of the Father, then either we have a contradiction in scripture or John 1:1-3 is a lie. Now I know that there are no contradictions in scripture and, since scripture is inspired of God, there can be no lies in it. I assume we both agree on this.

Yes I agree. There are no contradictions in original scripture…and if there are contradictions in current scripture it means that the original scripture is not present (if you understand my meaning).

---

But if I may ask: Why is there a question between Deity vs. Being Created?

I don’t think being created takes away from the Son being a deity ("…every creature after his kind…"[Gen 1:24])…and that’s not the case I’m trying to argue (as I believe he was/is a deity…the only of His Father’s kind). So I think it’s fair to qualify my argument from here on just to avoid confusing where I’m coming from:

With deity established; I think the question is: “is the Son Co-equal and Co-eternal with the Father?” (And of course I will address John 1:3)

---

Therefore, I ask, how can the Logos or Word have created Himself? John 1:1-3 says that
*** “Nothing*** was MADE ( created ) that was NOT made by Him”… You say that the Logos was the Father’s first creation, if this is true, then John 1:1-3 cannot be true for we have a contradiction. Both statements cannot be true. Also if you claim that the Logos is “a god” and not God, then this violates the first commandment.

The truth or falsity of our statements, comments,etc. hinge on this.

And again, “begotten” does NOT mean made or created.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

All text is the inspired word of God and it does not contradict itself. So if contradiction is found that means text was changed

Colossians 1:15 [Messiah] who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn [prototokos = πρωτότοκος] of every [pases = “all; every kind of variety”] creature [ktiseos = κτίσεως]

Prototokos: [Greek] formed from “Proto” “First”] + Tikto “to beget”; “to generate”] means “first generation”.

Now the question is does “begettal = birth”? So the greek word “prototokos”, if used in context of birth, should be good enough to prove that it means “to bear” or “to generate”.

Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth ἔτεκεν, from root τίκτω (Tikto) = “to beget”] her firstborn πρωτότοκον = prototokos] son and he called his name JESUS

Luke 2:7 And she brought forth ἔτεκεν, from root τίκτω (Tikto) = “to beget”] her firstborn πρωτότοκον = prototokos] son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Both of these passages show “prototokos” in context of birth, as in “first generation from parent”.

(continued)

 

[Joshua27]

(continued from last post)

Therefore, I ask, how can the Logos or Word have created Himself? John 1:1-3 says that
*** “Nothing*** was MADE ( created ) that was NOT made by Him”… You say that the Logos was the Father’s first creation, if this is true, then John 1:1-3 cannot be true for we have a contradiction. Both statements cannot be true. Also if you claim that the Logos is “a god” and not God, then this violates the first commandment.

JOHN 1:18 - “No one has seen God (the Father) at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.”

COLOSSIANS 1:15 - “[Messiah] who is the image of the invisible [or unseen] God and the firstborn of all created ones.”

REVELATION 3:14 - “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning ἀρχὴ = “arche”] of God’s creation.”

ἀρχὴ = [Strong’s Number 746; **“Arche” meaning ‘domain; corners; beginning; elementary’]

One of the meanings of our english derived word, “Arch”, is “passageway” (such as “gateway”) or “the Way” as Jesus has stated in scripture.

Now to your question: “If The Word [logos] was created, but ALL THINGS were created by Him [John 1:3], how could he create himself…because scripture cannot contradict itself?”

Quite true: Scripture cannot contradict itself unless it is not the original scripture. But before we get to John 1:3, let’s better define the events of the beginning:

---

Before the beginning…

PROVERBS 8:22 "The Lord created me at the beginning of His work, the first of His acts of old.

23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth;

26 before He had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world [could be interpreted “before the consideration of man”].

Then, the Beginning through the Son…

PROVERBS 8:27 When He established the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

28 when He made firm the skies above, when He established the fountains of the deep,

29 when He assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress His command, when He marked out the foundations of the earth,

30 then I was beside Him, like a master workman; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing before Him always,

31 rejoicing in His inhabited world, and delighting in the sons of men."

---

John 1:3

John 1:3 [Original Greek] - πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἓν ὃ γέγονεν

δι’= [Strong’s Number 1223; “Di” meaning ‘through, on account of, because of’]

John 1:3 [True Version] - All things were made [correct term is δι’ = “through”]

him and without him was not any thing made that was made.

…So the Son had a Beginning (first generation)…then he was “the way” (arche) to our beginning (genesis)…then he Ended himself for our sake (crucifiction) so that we did not have to end…and now he is glory (resurrection).

PHILIPPIANS 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6 who, although He existed in the form [morphe] of God, did not regard equality with [isa] God “harpagmon” [original GREEK, meaning “a thing to be grasped”, not the falsely translated word “Robbery”],

7 but emptied Himself, taking the form [morphen] of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

9 For this reason also [dio kai], God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

11 and that every tongue will acknowledge that the Lord Jesus Christ is the glory of God the Father.

This is why he has earned the title: The Alpha (beginning of creation) and The Omega (end of creation…for our sake)

 

[Joshua27]

In your own words, who can be worshiped? Who can’t be worshiped?

The Father; the Most High God is the only one who can to be worshiped.

I’m trying to find your direct answer to: Who shed His Blood for us? and Who is our Savior?

The Son shed his blood and gave his life for us and is our Savior. He is the reconciliation between we and the Father so that we can be children of the Father. The Son is our loving big brother (so to say).

I think either you misunderstood my point or your wrong about the radiance (radiation) coming from the sun - it is part of the sun escaping its gravity.

Please share what you mean by “radiation being part of the sun escaping its gravity” if I misunderstand. I’m no longer sure what you’re driving at…but I think you mean “radiance” - electromagnetic radiation (light) and thermal radiation (heat) - is as much the sun as “the sun” is?

If this is your point, I’ll answer this way:

Light and Heat are dependant upon the Sun to exist, but the Sun does not depend upon light and heat to exist.

If these are parts that form the sun we should be able to combine them with helium, hydrogen and Pressure to recreate (smaller) suns…but we can’t.

No one has ever seen the Sun…but we know it’s there. We know it’s there because of what it gives to us. We can’t look upon it directly because the gift it gives us is always between us and it (its radiance)…and even when we use devices to look through its radiance to see the Sun, the properties that form it are invisible [Hydrogen & Helium]. We only know that the sun is there - and exists - through the **“character”**istics of its byproducts (light and heat).

But we can’t comprehend something that they can’t see or touch or taste…so we simplify things and say, “the sun = light” and “the sun = heat”…yet if these are part of the sun, then anything that produces light or heat is also part of the sun, right? Light from lightbulbs are part the sun?

In Conclusion, [which ties into my answer to your next question, “Was the father’s right hand created?”]

You and I are as much part of our parents as to say, “they made us…we came from them”…but we are not them. We have never meet each other’s parents but we know for a fact that they have or do exist, simply because we would not be here talking to each other if otherwise.

In truth “No one can know the Sun exists except through its byproducts; except through its work; except through its gift of radiance (light and heat).”

Likewise, “no one can know the Father [the Invisible God] except through His first product;except through His Word; except through His gift of Radiance [the Son; the Visible God].”

We are called the body [parts] of Christ, and yet we were born…twice (once physically and again spiritually/Baptismally); created.

**Question: **How are we still called - in truth - Christ’s body even though we were created and are separate individuals?

Answer: We are Christ’s body because we do His work.

The Son; our Christ, is called the right hand of the Father because He does the Father’s work, even though - yes - the Son was created.

I think you missed the idea that the Jewish leaders knew Jesus made Himself equal with God. That, if untrue, would be blasphamy in the highest degree and much worse than not keeping the Sabaath.

Read John 5 again, Dokimas.

Jesus never said “I am equal with God”…but said, “My Father works hitherto “now” or “on this day”], and I work”. There is no notion of whether “Jesus’ equality with God” was an issue to be determined as “true” or “untrue”. The Jews made their determination of equality and thus blasphemy because:

(a) Jesus perormed work on [their] Feast day and

(b) Because Jesus claimed God was “his Father”.

Also note that this is in the past. so NO ONE called the Almighty, “Father” up to this point. Jews never even dared to speak God’s name out of fear and reverence…so to call him “abba” (dad; daddy) was utter blasphemy to Jews.

In other words their argument was, "what lowly human being dares to have the audacity to be on such familiar and personal terms with the Almighty, suggesting that he’s of the same petigree - bloodline - as GOD himself?"

Interesting Additional Point: They also KNEW Jesus was a devil (or possessed with a devil), didn’t they?

Are you discussing here with others or me? I’m responsible for me, not for others.

Again thank you, but my comment about others labeling me was just a general statement and wasn’t directed at anyone specifically…sorry for the misunderstanding

 

[Javl]

Joshua:

Thank you for allowing me to know of your background. It is amazing and very interesting. I know that I cannot compare to your knowledge and background. I am not a scholar nor theologian. I have had just enough training to disseminate whatever knowledge I do have to non-Christians and to correct mis-understandings with the faithful.

Also thank you for your explanations. The only thing I can say is that with your explanations you seem to be out of step with other theologians and scholars. Or am I wrong? For almost 2000 years we faithful have been taught, and it has been emphasized, about the equality in glory and nature of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That the Son is as much God as is the Father and that the Holy Spirit is as much God as the Father and the Son. They all Have the same Glory, Majesty, and Power.

From your explanations it seems that this is not so. This places us ( me ) in a quandry, who and what do we ( I ) believe? The theologians that I do know ( Catholic and Protestant ) all basicaly agree on the deity of the Son and the Holy Spirit. Therefore, I would tend to lean in their direction and accept their version.

So, I think that any further dialog would be to no avail. I do not have sufficient knowledge to answer with you. I do appreciate, wholeheartedly, your time and effort in answering my questions. Meanwhile, God Bless.

JAVL

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Joshua27]

Joshua, what do you make of this passage?

There is so much evidence in this passage that alludes to Christ’s divinity (as in equal with the Father). First, it would seem God Himself broke His own first commandment when telling His angels to worship a mere creature, correct? You’ve stated in a previous post that God’s first commandment is that we worship no one but Him, because of this it would seem that God is calling His Son God as well. There is then the second bolded part where God directly calls His Son God and then the third bolded part where He does it again.

Well lets take this passage piece-by-piece…

----1st----

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he [This is Father God speaking] says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

**Here, the Angels [The Elohim] were commanded to worship the Son [The Logos] in this passage…not man

Conversely…

“Exodus 20:1” directs the commandments to a specific party; Man.

“…which have brought thee [man] out of the land of Egypt; out of the house of bondage…”

Then “Exodus 20:3” states commandment 1 for man…No other elohim before me.

----2nd----

Hebrews 1:7 - Of the angels he says λέγει = Legei], “Who makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire.”

λέγει [Legei = “he says”] is important to pay attention to, but let’s continue…

----3rd----

Hebrews 1:8 - But of the Son he says, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom.

Question: Who is “He” that is speaking?
Answer: Father God is speaking, of course…or is he?

The original greek does not include the words “he says” λέγει = Legei] in this verse (unlike it does in verse 7 above), so the original verse is as follows:

Hebrews 1:8 - But of the Son, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom.

Quesiton: Now, who is speaking?
Answer: The writer of the epistle is speaking to the Son

My point is, Father God is not calling the Son, “O God”, but the writer is.

The entire passage - from the beginning - references the Father making commandments:

1. Let the angels worship the Son
2. Let the angels be ministering spirits and servants [of fire]

But then the writer speaks directly to the Son, "You oh God, your throne is for ages and your scepter of righteousness is the septer of the kingdom. Recall that you yourself stated that this is a psalm meant to show honor and reverence to Christ.

----4th----

Hebrew 1:9 - Thou [We’ve established that the writer is now speaking directly to the Son] hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond thy comrades."

Important: The additional comment made towards the Son: “Therefore God, Thy God has annointed thee…above thy comrades”.

This proves that Father God is above the Son.

Additional Point: The label “Christ” comes from the greek translation of the hebrew word for “Messiah” which means “annointed”.

---

Hebrews 1:10-11 - And, “Thou, Lord, [Still the writer speaking] didst found the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of thy hands; they will perish, but thou remainest; they will all grow old like a garment.”

This is fine. The Son was there with the Father at our beginning.​

[Referencing **Psalm 102:25-26 & Genesis 1:3

]

Christ taking part in creation makes perfect sense with Scripture

To me too. Creation is through the Son, caused by the Father. The Son is the work [right hand] of the Father.

Now just what is this Word? It’s the second Person of the Holy Trinity, Jesus Christ which is shown by Jn 1:1-3 and Col 1:16-17.

No…it’s not, Zach.

God the Son and God the Father are equal, which is what the Scriptures tell us.

No…they are not, Zach…and No…it doesn’t, Zach.

You have to ignore 2000 years of Christian history to come up with such an heterodox position such as yours.

Time does not determine truth, Zach. Blacks were considered inferior humans (mentally) for a long time in history…it that true? So is it heretical to (rather recently) believe that there are not any differences in capabilities among races?

---

All your remaining passages include the word “through” as it relates to the Son and creation. The Son is the Arch “Arche” = “the way”] of the creation of God (The Father).

(continued)

 

[Joshua27]

As for you suggesting that there are lesser gods because of God’s first commandment (“You shall have no other gods before me.”), you are completely wrong. You have to completely deny Judaisms strict monotheism to get that idea, and you have to ignore all of the evidence in the Bible saying that there is only one God (go here for an extensive list of verses).

You misunderstand your own statement, Zach.

You’ve put value on the word “god”, while it simply means “Elohim” as a type of being; like “human”. There is a difference between gods and God, as I’ve made clear in my usage.

Judaism is the belief in worshipping one God; only ONE God. I have never put any value on any other Elohim, or any lesser god as an object of worship. While at the same time, all throughout the history of the bible, the Jews have never denied the existance of other nations and their gods:

In fact, there are several scenes in the bible when God warns his people not to inquire about other nation’s gods; where God’s prophets are told to challenge other nations and their gods; and where satan is called the god of this world (until the return of the Messiah).

The existence of Judaism does not mean “there are no gods [elohim]”. Judaism means “we worship only one God…The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob”.

If anything, you should have controversy when I say that "all worship should be directed to the Father alone, as only the Father, The MOST HIGH God - The ONE, TRUE GOD - should be worshipped.

Now…One (1) equals One (1)…Three (3), no matter how many ways you add it together, will ever equal one (1).

All of the references in your link speak of “No other ALMIGHTY [Yehovah Elohim] besides me (Father God)” and this is exactly true and even proves my point even further:

You claim the Son is equal to the Father…so you claim the Son is beside the Father. And yet each reference shows that “There is no other who is at the height of the Most High except the Father.”

 

[grace_singh]

Joshua ~

you make a noteworthy and important point, namely the difference between God the Father, and God the Son.

Jesus Christ never claims to be God the Father, and does make a distinction between Himself, and the Father in numerous passages.

at the same time He tells us that He shares in the Father’s nature, authroity, and being, that He had glory with the Father before the world was made, and that He (Christ) is to be honored just as the Father is honored.

for Scripture references, please see Mark 2:1-12, John 5:22-23, John 10:28-30, John 14:6-9, and John 17:5.

the LORD God also calls Himself “first and last” in Isaiah 44:6. are we then to assume that the LORD God is created? or that He had a beginning? rather the meaning of the text is that God Almighty, and hence Christ, is the sum of all things, from start to finish, uncreated and without end.

God has no begining, friend. and Christ, being God, likewise has no beginning. there is never a time at which Christ was not God, or was distinct from God, even during His incarnation. otherwise He would not have been able to say “him that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me” (John 12:45). Christ incarnate was not a watered-down version of God, but fully God and fully Man, divinity dwelling fully in flesh, God the Son (Colossians 1:19-20).

 

[grace_singh]

Joshua ~

you may also want to take a look at this website, from the Catholic Answers forum about Christ’s divinity in the earliest Christian writings.

The Divinity of Christ in the Writings of the Church Fathers

i agree that there is One God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth.

and that Christ Jesus is the same as God, the Father, even while being distinct from and sent by the Father.

one analogy i have heard is that of an arm. is the arm you? yes. it it all of you? no. if the arm is burt or injured, are you by definition burt or injured? yes. the arm is you, a part of you, and the same as you while not being the sum total of Joshua, and also being distinct from you.

it is an imperfect analogy, and is meant to be a very simplistic one. but in a generally similar manner, the Son is the same as the Father (God) even while being distinct from the Father. hence, God the Son.

 

[TheosisM]

In fact, there are several scenes in the bible when God warns his people not to inquire about other nation’s gods; where God’s prophets are told to challenge other nations and their gods; and where satan is called the god of this world (until the return of the Messiah).

Do you see a relationship between this view and Deut 32:8-9, especially noting that the MT states “sons of Israel”, while the Septuagint and the DSS (i.e. older than the MT) state “sons of God” (bene 'elohim)? Perhaps the writer of the Masoretic text did not like the implications of “sons of God” and changed it to “sons of Israel”.

 

[TheosisM]

also Joshua, are you familiar with divine council scholarship, a la Michael Heiser and Mark S. Smith?

 

[Joshua27]

He had glory with the Father before the world was made, and that He (Christ) is to be honored just as the Father is honored.

Mark 2:1-12 (paraphrasing)

• Jesus says to a sick person “your sins are forgiven”.
• Religious leaders hear Him and think to themselves “he’s blaspheming! Only God can forgive sins!”
• Jesus, sensing their thoughts says “which is easier: to say ‘your sins are forgiven’ or to say ‘get up and walk’? But so you know that the Son of Man has the authority to forgive sins [watch this]…”
• Jesus turns to the sick and says “get up and walk home.”

Mark 2:1-12 = The Son has authority on earth.

---

John 5:22-23 - For the Father judgeth no man but hath committed δέδωκεν = deduken = “to give; given”] all judgment κρίσιν = krisin “decision; authority”] unto the Son.

Again, the operative word is “given”; “to hand over”; “to exchange hands”; “what was once in one’s hand is now in another’s”

---

John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand

(They currently are in Jesus’ hand.)

John 10:29 - My Father which gave them me is greater than all and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

(There were given into Jesus’ hand from God’s hand…originally in God’s hand.)

John 10:30 - I and my Father are one

John 10:32 - [They look to stone him because he makes himself God]

John 10:34 - [Jesus answers back] Isn’t it written in your law “…you are gods”?

John 10:35 - If he calls them gods, to whom the word of God was given, and if scripture can’t be broken…

John 10:36 - how can you say of him, whom the Father has annointed and sent into the world, “you blaspheme” because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 10:37 - If I do not the works of my Father, don’t believe in me.

John 10:38 - But if I do them, though you don’t believe in me (particularly), believe in the works, so you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in him.

(This last phrase is important.)

---

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh unto the Father but through δι’ = Di = “through; on account of”] me

John 14:7 - If ye had known me ye should have known my Father also and from henceforth ye know him and have seen him.

John 14:8 - Philip saith unto him Lord shew us the Father and it is enough for us

John 14:9 - Jesus saith unto him Have I been so long time with you and yet hast thou not known me Philip he that hath seen me hath seen the Father and how sayest thou then Shew us the Father?

Jesus explains how this is possible…

John 14:10 - …I am in the Father and the Father is in me? the father dwells in me, and he’s doing the works.

John 14:11 - I am in the Father and the Father is in me.

John 14:16 - καγὼ ἐρωτήσω τὸν πατέρα καὶ ἄλλον παράκλητον δώσει ὑμῖν, ἵνα ᾖ μεθ’ ὑμῶν εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα,

John 14:16 [Original] - I will ask the Father that He will give you another Aid so that I am with you forever.

---

John 17:20 - Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.

John 17:21 - That they all may be one as καθὼς = “just as”] thou Father art in me and I in thee that they also may be one in us that the world may believe that thou hast sent me

John 17:22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them that they may be one even as καθὼς = “just as”] we are one

John 17:23 - I in them and thou [Father] in me that they may be made perfect in one and that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them as thou hast loved me

---

the LORD God also calls Himself “first and last” in Isaiah 44:6. are we then to assume that the LORD God is created? or that He had a beginning?

…God has no begining, friend. and Christ, being God, likewise has no beginning.

…To respond let me once again quote a passage from Proverbs 8 (all scripture is inspired Word of God):

Before the beginning…

PROVERBS 8:22 "The Lord created me at the beginning of His work, the first of His acts of old.

23 Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth;

26 before He had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world.

Then In the Beginning through the Son…

PROVERBS 8:27 When He established the heavens, I was there, when He drew a circle on the face of the deep,

28 when He made firm the skies above, when He established the fountains of the deep,

29 when He assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress His command, when He marked out the foundations of the earth,

30 then I was beside Him, like a master workman; and I was daily His delight, rejoicing before Him always,

31 rejoicing in His inhabited world, and delighting in the sons of men."

Christ incarnate was not a watered-down version of God…

Of course not. Am I, or are you, a watered down version of our parents, or are we their love, manifested into existence?

In me is the fullness of everything my parents had to offer. Being created does not mean watered down…But Colossians 1:19-20 - out of context - doesn’t speak of whom to worship.

Please read the beginning of verse 12. Who is praised for all that transpires in 19-20?

 

[Joshua27]

Joshua ~

you may also want to take a look at this website, from the Catholic Answers forum about Christ’s divinity in the earliest Christian writings.

The Divinity of Christ in the Writings of the Church Fathers

i agree that there is One God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth.

and that Christ Jesus is the same as God, the Father, even while being distinct from and sent by the Father.

one analogy i have heard is that of an arm. is the arm you? yes. it it all of you? no. if the arm is burt or injured, are you by definition burt or injured? yes. the arm is you, a part of you, and the same as you while not being the sum total of Joshua, and also being distinct from you.

it is an imperfect analogy, and is meant to be a very simplistic one. but in a generally similar manner, the Son is the same as the Father (God) even while being distinct from the Father. hence, God the Son.

Well let me ask: If we are also called the Body of Christ…And if the Son is the same as God, the Father, even while being distinct from and sent by the Father, are we the same as God (as part of Christ’s body)? Are we God the Sons and Daughters?

 

[Dokimas]

Joshua27 in black; Doki in color;

The Father; the Most High God is the only one who can to be worshiped.

Then why did Jesus let people worship Him?

The Son shed his blood and gave his life for us and is our Savior. He is the reconciliation between we and the Father so that we can be children of the Father. The Son is our loving big brother (so to say).

Then why does the Bible say God shed His Blood for His sheep?

And then why does the Bible say God is the Savour. In fact in Titus, Paul said 3 times God is the Savior and 3 time he said Jesus is the Savior.​

BTW, thank you for answering my questions in a very straight forward mannor.

 

[Joshua27]

Do you see a relationship between this view that there are several scenes in the bible when God warns his people not to inquire about other nation’s gods; where God’s prophets are told to challenge other nations and their gods; and where satan is called the god of this world (until the return of the Messiah).] and Deut 32:8-9, especially noting that the MT states “sons of Israel”, while the Septuagint and the DSS (i.e. older than the MT) state “sons of God” (bene 'elohim)? Perhaps the writer of the Masoretic text did not like the implications of “sons of God” and changed it to “sons of Israel”.

Yes I do. I have found so many scriptural rewrites throughout my studies, but I can’t speak on any scibe’s intentions or motivations. All I can say is that it is prophetic of Jeremiah 8:8:

Jeremiah 8:8 - How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’? But behold, the pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

In other words the very act of copying a written work is subject to changes from the original.

also Joshua, are you familiar with divine council scholarship, a la Michael Heiser and Mark S. Smith?

No I wasn’t…but now that I am, I will read their research and see what they say.

Give me some time with it, if that’s ok?

 

[TheosisM]

Yes I do. I have found so many scriptural rewrites throughout my studies, but I can’t speak on any scibe’s intentions or motivations. All I can say is that it is prophetic of Jeremiah 8:8:

Jeremiah 8:8 - How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’? But behold, the pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

In other words the very act of copying a written work is subject to changes from the original.

No I wasn’t…but now that I am, I will read their research and see what they say.

Give me some time with it, if that’s ok?

Yeah definitely. I just wanted to see if you were aware of it, as from your posts in this thread, you seem to be more aware of Biblical/Ancient Near Eastern scholarship (as well as what the Greek says) in this area than most I’ve seen on this forum, so it’s refreshing.

 

[peary]

Colossians 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation”

“Yes, he might be the image of the invisible God, but it does not necessarily mean they are one”… as the WTS holds.

I understand that being first born means being exalted, not necessarily being the eldest --but what stumped me is the verse that states further that “he is the first born of ALL CREATION” therefore, he really is created then? just being the most superior of them all?

He is both. Christ is TRUE MAN AND TRUE GOD.

 

[Joshua27]

Joshua27 in black; Doki in color;

The Father; the Most High God is the only one who can to be worshiped.

Then why did Jesus let people worship Him?

Sure…Share with me passages and I’ll read and we’ll see what the original says…I will never tout to always be right about this important matter.

But generally speaking, in exchanges I can recall Jesus always redirects praise back to the Father; redirects his source of capability and authority back to the Father; and always gives credit back to the Father…And whenever someone makes an accusation of him as being God, he references back to he being the Son of the Father.

The Son shed his blood and gave his life for us and is our Savior. He is the reconciliation between we and the Father so that we can be children of the Father. The Son is our loving big brother (so to say).

Then why does the Bible say God shed His Blood for His sheep?

And then why does the Bible say God is the Savour. In fact in Titus, Paul said 3 times God is the Savior and 3 time he said Jesus is the Savior.

The Son does all the work the Father wants done. The Son is the instrument of Salvation, while the Father is the author of Salvation.

…Let me try something else…

Pope Benedict is the mouthpiece of God for the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church

But Pope Benedict is a man and speaks words using his own mouth; there is no difference between his mouth before achieving his position and his mouth after his position…and the Pope didn’t suddenly transform into lips, so how can he be the mouth of God?

The only way this is possible is through function; You believe the Pope is God’s instrument to speak His message to us, but you still believe the words given are from God, correct? How is this possible? Are the Pope and God one person? No. The belief is God works through the Pope.

---

John 3:16 - For [the Father] so loved the world that [the Father] gave His only begotten Son…(His only seed; His only offspring; the only continuation of His Bloodline)…

So The Son is the instrument - the function or work - of the Father’s Salvation.

Here is a prophetic example of what I mean…

Genesis 22:2 - And he said [to Abram] Take now thy son thine only son Isaac whom thou lovest and get thee into the land of Moriah and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of

Genesis 22:7 - And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father and said “My father” and he said “Here am I my son” And he said "Behold the fire and the wood but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?"

Genesis 22:9 - And they came to the place which God had told him of and Abraham built an altar there and laid the wood in order and bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar upon the wood

Genesis 22:10 - And Abraham stretched forth his hand and took the knife to slay his son [His only begotten son; the only continuation of his blood]

Question: Who was the Initiator of the Offering, and who was the Vessel of the Offering?

Answer: Abram - the father - was the Initiator; the Author, and Isaac - the son; Abram’s seed; Abram’s blood - was to be the Vessel; the “through which” the offering was to be completed.

So in this situation, the offering was caused by the father. And then was (to be) fulfilled by the son. But Abram is not Isaac; they just have the same blood.

Just like you are not your parents (father or mother) you just carry the same blood as them. You are the fulfillment of them, while they are the cause of you. But you have your own will as they have their own wills. In your early lifetime you leaned obedience to them, and now you are the glory of them.

On a genetic level, your blood type is identical to your mother’s and your genes are identical to your siblings (if you have any). You are one with them in blood but you are not them…you are you.

Likewise, in our situation of Salvation; the Father was the initiator of Salvation and the Son was the vessel of Salvation. The Father is the cause and the Son is the fulfillment. But The Father is not the Son, they just have the same Spirit [divine blood/divine genes (of the same family, if you will…)]

If many argue that God can not create himself [True], then the same argument must be upheld that God can not sacrifice himself [also True, because God always is]…so God must’ve and had to create an offspring of Himself; and Image of Himself [A Son], so that then God could sacrificed that offspring [His Son] for the ultimate offering for Salvation.

To say that the Son is a creature does not take anything away from the Son, or his obedience, or the role he played in our salvation…It merely - and yet proboundly - shows how much love the Father has for all of us.​

BTW, thank you for answering my questions in a very straight forward mannor.

Sure! At the end of the day, Dokima, we all have a choice (free will) to believe whatever we choose to believe…this is a forum where we all share…and all I’ve done is shared what I’ve found.

If - even after our entire conversation - it still doesn’t sit well with you, then it is not your truth to hear. But there are things we do agree on, right, such as the Son’s sacrifice for our sins.

God will square us away on all the rest of this stuff, in the end, you know?