Christ Did NOT make Peter the head of the church

[Randy_Carson]

No the Church is the body of Christ. a living organism… A family of God, all of the above…The greatest among us will serve the least among us…

The other way around, Karen.

The least among us will be the greatest because the least serves all.

Karen, you are correct.

Jesus said, “The greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.”

And by the way, do you notice here that Jesus never said, “No one will rule”? Instead, He provided a description of the man who DOES rule.

I don’t understand how those who deny the supremacy of the pope miss this, but it’s plain enough if folks will just open their Bibles and read.

Jesus established Peter as the ruler of His Church in John 21 where the Greek *poimanao * - to rule is used.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Karen, you are correct.

Jesus said, “The greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.”

And by the way, do you notice here that Jesus never said, “No one will rule”? Instead, He provided a description of the man who DOES rule.

I don’t understand how those who deny the supremacy of the pope miss this, but it’s plain enough if folks will just open their Bibles and read.

Jesus established Peter as the ruler of His Church in John 21 where the word *poimanao *is used.

Luke 9:48 and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me; for he who is least among you all is the one who is great.”

Matthew 23:11 The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Thank you for bringing that verse as well.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I don’t understand how those who deny the supremacy of the pope miss this, but it’s plain enough if folks will just open their Bibles and read.

Because Scriptures are to be read through the Living Tradition of the Church.

Like many Catholics like to point out. [If] Scriptures was easy and plain enough, there would not be so many denominations - would it not?

 

[spina1953]

Are you suggesting that the “men from James” had a different persepctive than James?

Why then, did James state that they all agreed not to “trouble the Gentiles further” after that council?

.
Hi Gaunophore: I don’t know about FKB guy but it seems to me that even after the Council, there were still those who were trying to undermind what had been agreed in the council and said that they were form James but really were not. it seems to me that they wanted to make Peter and maybe Paul but mostly the Gentiles converts and well as the Jewish converts that they still had to follow the Law of Moses Which may have confused Peter but that’s just my guess at it based on what I think was going on after the council when peter may have back to Antioch.

 

[Randy_Carson]

.
Hi Gaunophore: I don’t know about FKB guy but it seems to me that even after the Council, there were still those who were trying to undermind what had been agreed in the council and said that they were form James but really were not. it seems to me that they wanted to make Peter and maybe Paul but mostly the Gentiles converts and well as the Jewish converts that they still had to follow the Law of Moses Which may have confused Peter but that’s just my guess at it based on what I think was going on after the council when peter may have back to Antioch.

Yes.

Notice in Galatians 2 that Paul confronts Peter who began separating himself from Gentile believers after some men came from Jerusalem. And this was after the council!

 

[MartinJordan]

Randy, how about this?:

The Temple tax - Matthew 17 24 - 26: when Jesus was with his disciples the tax collectors approached Peter first?

Plus : then Jesus asks Peter a question, and upon answer, Jesus tells Peter to pay for His Tax and Peter’s (taken from the first caught fish that Peter catches -as Jesus instructs).

MJ

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy, how about this?:

The Temple tax - Matthew 17 24 - 26: when Jesus was with his disciples the tax collectors approached Peter first?

Plus : then Jesus asks Peter a question, and upon answer, Jesus tells Peter to pay for His Tax and Peter’s (taken from the first caught fish that Peter catches -as Jesus instructs).

MJ

Yep.

Quite possibly the first example of Peter acting in persona Christi.

 

[MartinJordan]

Yep.

Quite possibly the first example of Peter acting in persona Christi.

There’s more…if you want

MJ

 

[Randy_Carson]

There’s more…if you want

MJ

Really? Let hear it!

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by Isaiah45_9
The Papacy in its present form is particular to the West not to the Church as a Whole.

I’m not trying to speak for Isaiah, but I don’t believe he said anything like that.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

1 Peter 5:1 So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. 2 Tend the flock of God that is your charge, not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly, 3 not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd is manifested you will obtain the unfading crown of glory. 5 Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

2 Peter 3:14 Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

 

[MartinJordan]

Really? Let hear it!

1 Cor 9:5 (NIV): 1 Am not I free? Am not I an apostle? Have not I seen Christ Jesus our Lord? Are not you my work in the Lord?

2 And if unto others I be not an apostle, but yet to you I am. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

3 My defence with them that do examine me is this.

4 Have not we power to eat and to drink?

5 Have we not power to carry about a woman, a sister, as well as the rest of the apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to do this?

Notice how Cephas (Peter’s name) comes last and separated. Very carefully constructed by Paul

MJ

 

[guanophore]

G-man,

The Catechism is a guide to our faith, not our history.

Are you saying that the Eastern Bishops were not guilty of heresy?

No, not at all! Only that they are not now to be regarded as being in such a state. Schism is a sin, but it is quite different than the sin of heresy.

This is not my area of expertise, but Dave Armstrong, Mark Bonocore and others have done a pretty thorough job of documenting the fact that the Eastern Church was in heresy for hundreds of years over one issue or another, and each time, Rome (which has never fallen) sorted the matter out.

We do agree on this, don’t we?

The gates of hell have not prevailed, nor shall they.

 

[guanophore]

.
Hi Gaunophore: I don’t know about FKB guy but it seems to me that even after the Council, there were still those who were trying to undermind what had been agreed in the council and said that they were form James but really were not. it seems to me that they wanted to make Peter and maybe Paul but mostly the Gentiles converts and well as the Jewish converts that they still had to follow the Law of Moses Which may have confused Peter but that’s just my guess at it based on what I think was going on after the council when peter may have back to Antioch.

Oh yes, you are right on with this as well. Problems continued with Judiazers until the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD and the clarity of separation (Christianity was no longer considered a Jewish sect). But after that council, James, the other Apostles, and those in unity with them no longer espoused that view. Those who continued to trouble the Gentiles did not come from James, and they were not obedient to the Apostolic college.

 

[MartinJordan]

Matthew 16: 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; **and upon this rock ******I will ****build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And…

Matthew 17: 4 And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5 And as he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them. And lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him.

Do you see the connection Randy?

Paralleling Matthew 16:18 with Matthew 17:4

and Matthew 16:17 with Matthew 17:5



MJ

 

[guanophore]

Really? Let hear it!

Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).

Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.

Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.

Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.

Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.

Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.

Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus’ tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.

Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ’s representative on earth.

Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus’ teachings.

Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.

Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus’ curse on the fig tree.

Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.

Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.

Luke 5:3 – Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat which is metaphor for the Church. Jesus guides Peter and the Church into all truth.

Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the “fisher of men.”

Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples. Jesus also singles Peter out and judges his conduct vis-à-vis the conduct of the woman who anointed Him.

Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.

Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 - Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.

Luke 9:28;33 - Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration.

Luke 12:41 - Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter’s formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven.

Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.

Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 - John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first.

Luke 24:34 - the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33.

John 6:68 - after the disciples leave, Peter is the first to speak and confess his belief in Christ after the Eucharistic discourse.

John 13:6-9 - Peter speaks out to the Lord in front of the apostles concerning the washing of feet.

John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter’s death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred.

John 21:2-3,11 - Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the “barque of Peter”) is a metaphor for the Church.

John 21:7 - only Peter got out of the boat and ran to the shore to meet Jesus. Peter is the earthly shepherd leading us to God.

John 21:15 - in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus “more than these,” which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see.

John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to “feed my lambs,” “tend my sheep,” “feed my sheep.” Sheep means all people, even the apostles.

 

[guanophore]

Acts 1:13 - Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord’s ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room.

Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates the selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn’t it need one to Peter? Of course.

Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.

Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.

Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.

Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.

Acts 5:3 - Peter declares the first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.

Acts 5:15 - Peter’s shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.

Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.

Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon’s quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.

Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and works the healing of Aeneas.

Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.

Acts 10:5 - Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision.

Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).

Acts 12:5 - this verse implies that the “whole Church” offered “earnest prayers” for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment.

Acts 12:6-11 - Peter is freed from jail by an angel. He is the first object of divine intervention in the early Church.

Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church’s first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.

Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter’s definitive teaching.

Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter’s definitive teaching. “Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited…”

Rom. 15:20 - Paul says he doesn’t want to build on “another man’s foundation” referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome.

1 Cor. 9:5 – Peter is distinguished from the rest of the apostles and brethren of the Lord.

1 Cor. 15:4-8 - Paul distinguishes Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles. Christ appeared “to Cephas, then to the twelve.”

Gal.1:18 - Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ’s Revelation to Paul.

1 Peter 5:1 - Peter acts as the chief bishop by “exhorting” all the other bishops and elders of the Church.

1 Peter 5:13 - Some Protestants argue against the Papacy by trying to prove Peter was never in Rome. First, this argument is irrelevant to whether Jesus instituted the Papacy. Secondly, this verse demonstrates that Peter was in fact in Rome. Peter writes from “Babylon” which was a code name for Rome during these days of persecution. See, for example, Rev. 14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2,10,21, which show that “Babylon” meant Rome. Rome was the “great city” of the New Testament period. Because Rome during this age was considered the center of the world, the Lord wanted His Church to be established in Rome.

2 Peter 1:14 - Peter writes about Jesus’ prediction of Peter’s death, embracing the eventual martyrdom that he would suffer.

2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul’s letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.

Matt. 23:11; Mark 9:35; 10:44 - yet Peter, as the first, humbled himself to be the last and servant of all servants.

 

[MartinJordan]

Hey Guan, what is your opinion about Mat 16 and 17 parallels?

Oh and 1 cor 9:5

MJ

 

[Sy_Noe]

Sy, Peter was given the keys to heaven. Peter was concerned solely about establishing the Church and not at all with the peripheries of Imperial Rome.

Keys designates authority.

Catholics are Ecclesial Deists. Christ is big enough and great enough…True God – and – True Man to have weak but chosen men to administrate His Church.

It is not just about representation.

It is about Peter being given the keys to heaven and the Jewish people in the times following Christ’s earthly mission knew very well what it meant to have one person designated with the keys.

As Randy pointed out in Isaiah, there was always one person representing authority who would actually wear a large key on the outside of his person to designate himself to the rest of the community.

The earliest Church was Jewish. And when Peter arrived in Rome, there were already Jewish Christians living there who had escaped the Diaspora.

Some think the 144,000 in Revelations is referring to the 12 tribes of Nazarene Jews who escaped the destruction of Jerusalem.

The bottom line is authority and this is the real issue why people cannot accept the Catholic Church irregardless of even Protestant theologians agreeing the Church is most correct.

Greek and Aramaic ‘Peter’ refer to person, not a small symbolic stone.

Yes that’s one faith belief on the matter. Or another is keys bind and loosen and not only Peter was given those powers. And Peter refers to the person who gave the profession of faith at that time. It can all make for interesting discussion as can other matters of faith. But the bottom line is it comes down to belief and faith and faith and belief can’t be proven. All anyone can truly do while on this earth is walk by faith and not by sight until we see Him. Then we will know truth with certainty and in faith trust in His understanding of our hearts and minds and in His mercy where we are wrong.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I wonder what St. Peter would think of this done in his name:

Dictatus Papae

1. • That the Roman church was founded by God alone.
   • That the Roman pontiff alone can with right be called universal.
   • That he alone can depose or reinstate bishops.
   • That, in a council his legate, even if a lower grade, is above all bishops, and can pass sentence of deposition against them.
   • That the pope may depose the absent.
   • That, among other things, we ought not to remain in the same house with those excommunicated by him.
   • That for him alone is it lawful, according to the needs of the time, to make new laws, to assemble together new congregations, to make an abbey of a canonry; and, on the other hand, to divide a rich bishopric and unite the poor ones.
   • That he alone may use the imperial insignia.
   • That of the pope alone all princes shall kiss the feet.
   • That his name alone shall be spoken in the churches.
   • That this is the only name in the world.
   • That it may be permitted to him to depose emperors.
   • That he may be permitted to transfer bishops if need be.
   • That he has power to ordain a clerk of any church he may wish.
   • That he who is ordained by him may preside over another church, but may not hold a subordinate position; and that such a one may not receive a higher grade from any bishop.
   • That no synod shall be called a general one without his order.
   • That no chapter and no book shall be considered canonical without his authority.
   • That a sentence passed by him may be retracted by no one; and that he himself, alone of all, may retract it.
   • That he himself may be judged by no one.
   • That no one shall dare to condemn one who appeals to the apostolic chair.
   • That to the latter should be referred the more important cases of every church.
   • That the Roman church has never erred; nor will it err to all eternity, the Scripture bearing witness.
   • That the Roman pontiff, if he have been canonically ordained, is undoubtedly made a saint by the merits of St. Peter; St. Ennodius, bishop of Pavia, bearing witness, and many holy fathers agreeing with him. As is contained in the decrees of St. Symmachus the pope.
   • That, by his command and consent, it may be lawful for subordinates to bring accusations.
   • That he may depose and reinstate bishops without assembling a synod.
   • That he who is not at peace with the Roman church shall not be considered catholic.
   • That he may absolve subjects from their fealty to wicked men.
   Vatican I
   
   Chapter 3. On the power and character of the primacy of the Roman pontiff
   
   And so,
   supported by the clear witness of holy scripture, and
   adhering to the manifest and explicit decrees both of our predecessors
   • the Roman pontiffs and of
   • general councils,
   we promulgate anew the definition of the ecumenical council of Florence [49] ,
   which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that
   • the apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that
   • the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter,
   • the prince of the apostles,
   • true vicar of Christ,
   • head of the whole church and
   • father and teacher of all christian people.
   To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to
   • tend,
   • rule and govern
   • the universal church.
   All this is to be found in the acts of the ecumenical councils and the sacred canons.
   
   Wherefore we teach and declare that,
   by divine ordinance,
   the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both
   • episcopal and immediate.
   • Both clergy and faithful,
   • of whatever rite and dignity,
   • both singly and collectively,
   are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this
   • not only in matters concerning faith and morals,
   • but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world.
   Unam Sanctam by Pope Boniface VII, who was speaking from the chair of Peter in matter of faith and declaring and defining (among other things): (And therefore, speaking infallibly)
   
   *Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
   *