Christ Did NOT make Peter the head of the church

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Is there any record of Peter and or Paul naming a Bishop in Rome?
Hi Isaiah: If I remember correctly Peter elected Linus to take his place. I do not know if Paul named anyone to take his place in Rome. I know that he named many in the various places he went to but in Rome its doubtful that he named anyone to take his place in Rome.
 
Hi Isaiah: If I remember correctly Peter elected Linus to take his place. I do not know if Paul named anyone to take his place in Rome. I know that he named many in the various places he went to but in Rome its doubtful that he named anyone to take his place in Rome.
Also keep in mind that it is not the pope who names his successor as that happens after the death of a pope.
 
I took a class on the roots of the papacy and yes, Linus was appointed but the Church of Rome was comprised of small house churches vs the one church in Alexandria and Antioch, of which Peter founded.

What nailed Peter and Paul as founders is that not only was Peter witness to Christ, Peter was led to Rome by the Holy Spirit as was Paul, they were both recognized as founders by the Nazarene Jews who escaped the Diaspora who came prior to them, and most of all because Peter and Paul shed their blood for Christ in Rome, their martyrdom the most signfiicant sign as founders.

Rome was comprised of home churches led by presbyters, but Linus was the dominant figurehead and could not be without the recognition and installation by Peter.

St. Clement followed Linus and in communication with the other early Churches – Antioch, Alexander, and Jerusalem – that church fading into insignificance for a period of time, these communications emphasized a certain endearment to Rome.

There was a period in the earliest Church of Rome where we have little information, but you have to consider the persecution by Nero and the environment that followed.

Posters here have brought forward the complete history of continued apostolic leadership of the Church of Rome.

Later a Pope Callixtus made a binding statement regarding a certain bishop in handling excommunicants – those guilty of lying, stealing or adultery - and how his decree was immediately accepted by the entire Christiandom with no dissent. Later some bishops came forward to ask Callixtus more reconciliation towards those excommunicated, along with this certain bishop.

This set the tone for the collaboration between the pope and bishops.

Yesterday I took a class on Vatican I. This Council in the 1800’s was a response to democracy vs the monarchy…people now wanting self - determination and democracy, the free press that was also most effective in spreading falsehoods that damage society, Marxism, industry and manufacturing. There were new missions in Africa, the Far East and the Americas requiring more support from Rome. The papacy needed to be a stronger unifying sign to believers, and there was the usual differing positions of the bishops.

Infallibility of the papacy did not begin until the 1800’s…only 3 dogmas…the one defining infallibility – that draws on the consultation of all the bishops based on practice of faith already existing in the faithful --.

Pope Pius IX stated to the bishops, that since the faithful already believe in the Immaculate Conception to make it a dogma of faith. He consulted with all the bishops, they agreed, and thus we have the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

Infallibility pertains to faith and morals, and we have had only 3 dogmas pertaining to faith, no defined infallible dogma pertaining to morals yet.

If you look at Church history, there is this working unity between Rome and the bishops.

Prior to the Vatican I, the papacy was and is a sign of universal unity–the binding of communion to keep us together most important, and the papacy position as being pastoral and supporting other churches, as well as disciplining and dealing with heresies.

I find this all most reasonable and keeping the allegation as the pope as some kind of deified person kept in perspective.
 
Also keep in mind that it is not the pope who names his successor as that happens after the death of a pope.
Hi Steve VH: I understand but if I remember my church history correctly peter did name Linus as his successor, and I think that was so for the next few after him. I do know that that changed as time went by.
 
I took a class on the roots of the papacy and yes, Linus was appointed but the Church of Rome was comprised of small house churches vs the one church in Alexandria and Antioch, of which Peter founded.

What nailed Peter and Paul as founders is that not only was Peter witness to Christ, Peter was led to Rome by the Holy Spirit as was Paul, they were both recognized as founders by the Nazarene Jews who escaped the Diaspora who came prior to them, and most of all because Peter and Paul shed their blood for Christ in Rome, their martyrdom the most signfiicant sign as founders.

Rome was comprised of home churches led by presbyters, but Linus was the dominant figurehead and could not be without the recognition and installation by Peter.

St. Clement followed Linus and in communication with the other early Churches – Antioch, Alexander, and Jerusalem – that church fading into insignificance for a period of time, these communications emphasized a certain endearment to Rome.

There was a period in the earliest Church of Rome where we have little information, but you have to consider the persecution by Nero and the environment that followed.

Posters here have brought forward the complete history of continued apostolic leadership of the Church of Rome.

Later a Pope Callixtus made a binding statement regarding a certain bishop in handling excommunicants – those guilty of lying, stealing or adultery - and how his decree was immediately accepted by the entire Christiandom with no dissent. Later some bishops came forward to ask Callixtus more reconciliation towards those excommunicated, along with this certain bishop.

This set the tone for the collaboration between the pope and bishops.

Yesterday I took a class on Vatican I. This Council in the 1800’s was a response to democracy vs the monarchy…people now wanting self - determination and democracy, the free press that was also most effective in spreading falsehoods that damage society, Marxism, industry and manufacturing. There were new missions in Africa, the Far East and the Americas requiring more support from Rome. The papacy needed to be a stronger unifying sign to believers, and there was the usual differing positions of the bishops.

Infallibility of the papacy did not begin until the 1800’s…only 3 dogmas…the one defining infallibility – that draws on the consultation of all the bishops based on practice of faith already existing in the faithful --.

Pope Pius IX stated to the bishops, that since the faithful already believe in the Immaculate Conception to make it a dogma of faith. He consulted with all the bishops, they agreed, and thus we have the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

Infallibility pertains to faith and morals, and we have had only 3 dogmas pertaining to faith, no defined infallible dogma pertaining to morals yet.

If you look at Church history, there is this working unity between Rome and the bishops.

Prior to the Vatican I, the papacy was and is a sign of universal unity–the binding of communion to keep us together most important, and the papacy position as being pastoral and supporting other churches, as well as disciplining and dealing with heresies.

I find this all most reasonable and keeping the allegation as the pope as some kind of deified person kept in perspective.
Hi Kathleen Gee: Thanks for the information great post! I would like to add that if memory severs me correctly Paul came to Rome long after Peter came to Rome.
 
Hi Isaiah: If I remember correctly Peter elected Linus to take his place. I do not know if Paul named anyone to take his place in Rome. I know that he named many in the various places he went to but in Rome its doubtful that he named anyone to take his place in Rome.
That’s what is “thought”. But are there any records?
 
Hi Steve VH: I understand but if I remember my church history correctly peter did name Linus as his successor, and I think that was so for the next few after him. I do know that that changed as time went by.

You remember it right, Spina.


It did change as time went by, but it is clear from the early records that both Peter and Paul labored together to build up the Church in Rome, and that together “they gave over the exercise of the episcopal office to Linus. The same Linus is mentioned by St. Paul in his Epistle to Timothy”.

We must remember that both Peter and Paul were imprisoned and were scheduled for execution. As a Roman citizen, Paul had better conditions in his imprisonment, and was allowed visitors (it was more like a house arrest under guard) while Peter was probably in a dungeon. Neither were at liberty to exercise the episcopal office, and Linus may have been installed during their lifetime.
 
Hi Kathleen Gee: Thanks for the information great post! I would like to add that if memory severs me correctly Paul came to Rome long after Peter came to Rome.
It was probably not “long”, since the record indicates they served there together to build up the foundation of the Church.

It seems clear from Paul’s letter to Romans that they had never been visited by an Apostle, yet Paul does say “I make it my ambition to preach the gospel, not where Christ has already been named, lest I build on someone else’s foundation…” Rom 15:20.

There is only a small window of years here, between the writing of this letter, and the martrydom of both the saints that the two could have been there together, but we do not known the date of Peter’s arrival.
 
Is there any record of Peter and or Paul naming a Bishop in Rome?
Irenaeus of Lyons

“3The blessed Apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the Church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the Epistle to Timothy. To him succeeded Anencletus; and after him, in the third place from the Apostles, Clement was chosen from the episcopate. He had seen the blessed Apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that He still heard the echoes of the preaching of the Apostles, and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the Apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the Church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded; and Alexander succeeded Evaristus. Then, sixth after the Apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telesphorus, who also was gloriously martyred. Then Hyginus; after him, Pius; and after him, Anicetus. Soter succeeded Anicetus, and now, in the twelfth place after the Apostles, the lot of the episcopate has fallen to Eleutherus. In this order, and by the teaching of the Apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us.” (Against Heresies 3.3.3, [A.D. 180])
 
Is there any record of Peter and or Paul naming a Bishop in Rome?
That’s what is “thought”. But are there any records?
Irenaeus of Lyons

"1It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about…Surely they wished all those and their successors, to whom they handed on their authority, to be perfect and without reproach.” (Against Heresies 3.3.1, [A.D. 180])

"2But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul—that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition.” (Against Heresies 3.3.2, [A.D. 180])

“3The blessed Apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the Church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the Epistle to Timothy. To him succeeded Anencletus; and after him, in the third place from the Apostles, Clement was chosen from the episcopate. He had seen the blessed Apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that He still heard the echoes of the preaching of the Apostles, and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the Apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the Church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded; and Alexander succeeded Evaristus. Then, sixth after the Apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telesphorus, who also was gloriously martyred. Then Hyginus; after him, Pius; and after him, Anicetus. Soter succeeded Anicetus, and now, in the twelfth place after the Apostles, the lot of the episcopate has fallen to Eleutherus. In this order, and by the teaching of the Apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us.” (Against Heresies 3.3.3, [A.D. 180])
 

You remember it right, Spina.


It did change as time went by, but it is clear from the early records that both Peter and Paul labored together to build up the Church in Rome, and that together “they gave over the exercise of the episcopal office to Linus. The same Linus is mentioned by St. Paul in his Epistle to Timothy”.

We must remember that both Peter and Paul were imprisoned and were scheduled for execution. As a Roman citizen, Paul had better conditions in his imprisonment, and was allowed visitors (it was more like a house arrest under guard) while Peter was probably in a dungeon. Neither were at liberty to exercise the episcopal office, and Linus may have been installed during their lifetime.
Hi Guanophore: I agree and thanks for the information, think some may not have known that.
 
It was probably not “long”, since the record indicates they served there together to build up the foundation of the Church.

It seems clear from Paul’s letter to Romans that they had never been visited by an Apostle, yet Paul does say “I make it my ambition to preach the gospel, not where Christ has already been named, lest I build on someone else’s foundation…” Rom 15:20.

There is only a small window of years here, between the writing of this letter, and the martrydom of both the saints that the two could have been there together, but we do not known the date of Peter’s arrival.
Hi Guanophore: What I was trying to say was that Paul did not go to Rome at the same time that Peter did. Its thought that Peter went to Rome after escaping from prison, and then several years afterwards Paul being arrested asked to be tried in Rome about55 AD? or thereabouts. its thought that Peter arrived in Rome about 42AD? And you are correct that both Peter and Paul built up the Church in Rome and very likely worked together in that till their execution in about either 64 or 67, 68 AD.
 
I took a class on the roots of the papacy and yes, Linus was appointed but the Church of Rome was comprised of small house churches vs the one church in Alexandria and Antioch, of which Peter founded.
Due to severe persecutions of the Catholic Church all over the Roman empire by the Ceasars, the Church all over the empire for protection, was held in individual homes.
K:
Rome was comprised of home churches led by presbyters, but Linus was the dominant figurehead and could not be without the recognition and installation by Peter.

St. Clement followed Linus and in communication with the other early Churches – Antioch, Alexander, and Jerusalem – that church fading into insignificance for a period of time, these communications emphasized a certain endearment to Rome.
I would just make this comment

When Clement settled sedition in Corinth between their bishops, (St John is still alive living in Ephesus) it wasn’t because of a "certain endearment to Rome " i.e. to Clement that thay had. Corinth is only 50 miles from Athens. Athens is a Church mentioned in Acts. They have valid bishops and are a stones throw away. Why didn’t Corinth go to THEM for help? Thessolonika is a Church North of Corinth. They received 2 letters from Paul. They have valid bishops, and are much closer to Corinth than Clement in Rome. Why didn’t Corinth go to them for help? Antioch is also closer to Corinth than Rome. Why didn’t Corinth go to THEM? They all knew each other.

Why didn’t Corinth go to THEM? NONE of those other sees have pre-eminent authority. The see of Peter otoh does have that and that is understood from the beginning…witness Corinth sought the help of Clement.
K:
[snip]

This set the tone for the collaboration between the pope and bishops.
I would suggest we already see this much sooner in history with Clement’s involvement in Corinth
K:
Yesterday I took a class on Vatican I. This Council in the 1800’s

[snip]

Infallibility of the papacy did not begin until the 1800’s…only 3 dogmas…the one defining infallibility – that draws on the consultation of all the bishops based on practice of faith already existing in the faithful --.
The doctrine was formally defined at Vat I, but papal infallibility was always there.
k:
Pope Pius IX stated to the bishops, that since the faithful already believe in the Immaculate Conception to make it a dogma of faith. He consulted with all the bishops, they agreed, and thus we have the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
your teacher seems to have things backwards
K:
Infallibility pertains to faith and morals, and we have had only 3 dogmas pertaining to faith, no defined infallible dogma pertaining to morals yet.
Where did this " only 3 dogmas were defined infallibly" come from? There are LOT’S of infallible statements by papal decree

Here’s just one of many by JPII

The ordination of women priests can’t be done.

fromOrdinatioSacerdotalis JPII
  1. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church’s judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.
    Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo…otalis_en.html
Ergo, the case is closed. There is no more discussion.
 
John Chrysostom on Peter, James and the Council of Jerusalem

“James was invested with the chief rule [in Acts 15], and think it no hardship. So clean was their soul from love of glory. ‘And after that they had held their peace, James answered,’ etc. (v. 13.) Peter indeed spoke more strongly, but James here more mildly: for thus it behooves one in high authority, to leave what is unpleasant for others to say, while he himself appears in the milder part.” (Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles, 33)

“And should any one say, ‘Why then did James receive the throne of Jerusalem?’: this is my answer: that He appointed this man (Peter) not teacher of that throne, but of the habitable globe.” (John Chrysostom, A.D. 387, Ib. Hom. lxxxviii. n. 6, p. 600, in Joseph Berrington, John Kirk, eds., and James Waterworth, rev. The Faith of Catholics, vol. 2 (New York: Pustet & Co., 1884), 34.)
 
Randy, can you either by PM or here, give me any quotation from an ECF why in John 21 Jesus asks three times “Simon Son of John, Do you love me?” What Im asking why Jesus had to keep saying “Simon son of John” Why not just Simon? Or even just “do you love me”? Like in Matthew 16 “who do YOU say I am”?

Thanks. 🙂

MJ
 
Randy, can you either by PM or here, give me any quotation from an ECF why in John 21 Jesus asks three times “Simon Son of John, Do you love me?” What Im asking why Jesus had to keep saying “Simon son of John” Why not just Simon? Or even just “do you love me”? Like in Matthew 16 “who do YOU say I am”?

Thanks. 🙂

MJ
I’m not sure I have anything on this specifically, but I’ll check. You might try newadvent.org or ccel.org.

My take is that it was a solemn occasion, and Jesus used Simon’s formal name to emphasize it.
 
Randy, can you either by PM or here, give me any quotation from an ECF why in John 21 Jesus asks three times “Simon Son of John, Do you love me?” What Im asking why Jesus had to keep saying “Simon son of John” Why not just Simon? Or even just “do you love me”? Like in Matthew 16 “who do YOU say I am”?

Thanks. 🙂

MJ
There might be a connection to Peter’s confession at Caesarea Philippi, where Jesus says to him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven.” (Matthew 16:17)
 
Randy, can you either by PM or here, give me any quotation from an ECF why in John 21 Jesus asks three times “Simon Son of John, Do you love me?” What Im asking why Jesus had to keep saying “Simon son of John” Why not just Simon? Or even just “do you love me”? Like in Matthew 16 “who do YOU say I am”?

Thanks. 🙂

MJ
There was no surprise Peter would deny Jesus 3 times. Jesus told him in advance he would do it.
  • After the last supper, Lk 22: 34 Jesusf] said, “I tell you, Peter, the cock will not crow this day, until you have denied three times that you know me.”
  • After the resurrection Jesus asks Peter 3 times do you love me.
  • Augustine
  • newadvent.org/fathers/120114.htm scroll to ch 7
  • newadvent.org/fathers/160387.htm scroll to paragraphs 3&4
 
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