Christ Did NOT make Peter the head of the church

[spina1953]

Petros in Homer’s Greek

According to Protestant apologists, the Greek word petra means “large rock” whereas the word petros means only a small stone or pebble. If true, this distinction would be significant since Matthew 16:18-19 refers to Peter as petros; consequently, the claim is made that Peter was only a small, insignificant stone or pebble and not the rock upon which Jesus promised to build His Church.

However, in The Illiad, the ancient Greek author, Homer, used petros to describe a very large stone. From The Illiad, Chapter 20, Lines 285-290:

285σμερδαλέα ἰάχων: ὃ δὲ χερμάδιον λάβε χειρὶ
286Αἰνείας, μέγα ἔργον, ὃ οὐ δύο γ᾽ ἄνδρε φέροιεν,
287οἷοι νῦν βροτοί εἰσ᾽: ὃ δέ μιν ῥέα πάλλε καὶ οἶος.
288ἔνθά κεν Αἰνείας μὲν ἐπεσσύμενον βάλε πέτρῳ
289ἢ κόρυθ᾽ ἠὲ σάκος, τό οἱ ἤρκεσε λυγρὸν ὄλεθρον,
290τὸν δέ κε Πηλεΐδης σχεδὸν ἄορι θυμὸν ἀπηύρα,

The last word in line 288 is petros. Was this a small stone, easily hefted? Homer has a far different image in mind. Here is the full passage translated into English:

But Achilles drew his sharp sword and leapt upon him furiously, [285] crying a terrible cry; and Aeneas grasped in his hand a stone—a mighty deed—one that not two mortals could bear, such as men are now; yet lightly did he wield it even alone. Then would Aeneas have smitten him with the stone, as he rushed upon him, either on helm or on the shield that had warded from him woeful destruction, [290] and the son of Peleus in close combat would with his sword have

classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.20.xx.html

Homer uses two words for the “rock” or “stone” that was described as being so large that it would require two normal men to lift. The second word in the passage above is petros. So, Homer sees petros as a movable stone but one that is by no means small.

Based upon a posting by Huiou Theou: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=45207&highlight=Homer

Hi Randy: Great post! I remember reading Homer’s lliad several times when I was younger and You are correct in that in the passage you quoted was meant to be a stone or rock that two or more men had to pick up because of it’s weight and size yet, still movable as opposed to one that is not… Thanks again for your post!

 

[KathleenGee]

The Lord did not found His Church on an inanimate rock.

People need to really pray to the Holy Spirit for His guidance as all the proof doesn’t make sense…but another platform to disagree…

 

[spina1953]

The Lord did not found His Church on an inanimate rock.

People need to really pray to the Holy Spirit for His guidance as all the proof doesn’t make sense…but another platform to disagree…

Hi Kathleen Gee" How very true! Yet, one has need to test the spirits since one can thing that they are being guided by the Holy Spirit when in fact they are not and are really guided by their own thinking or preconceived notions.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi Randy: Great post! I remember reading Homer’s lliad several times when I was younger and You are correct in that in the passage you quoted was meant to be a stone or rock that two or more men had to pick up because of it’s weight and size yet, still movable as opposed to one that is not… Thanks again for your post!

:tiphat:

 

[TheSeeker2014]

If I may say, this ^^ isn’t something I often hear from Protestants. (Granted, I don’t know for sure that you’re protestant, I’m just inferring that from other things you’ve said.)

Well from the defination Catholics hold, Me not being Catholic I must be protestant.
Honestly how I see it I am just kinda out here in the world looking for Biblical Truth. I do not really fit anywhere.

Been looking at you guys though. Raised protestant.

 

[Peter_J]

Well from the defination Catholics hold, Me not being Catholic I must be protestant.

Well, fwiw even if you were catholic, it doesn’t necessarily mean you wouldn’t be protestant. Some, like Anglicans and Lutherans are “catholic and protestant” (or “Catholic and Protestant” depending which grammar book you use).

 

[KathleenGee]

TheSeeker2014…the Lord is carrying you…you are searching for the Truth, which is Christ Himself…keep persevering because your place is with Him…He will lay out things for you in time…be patient.

 

[Even_So]

And thanks from me, too, Randy. Next lesson, please - how do I get my comments within the quote to appear in colour?

Double ditto Randy. Thanks.

 

[Even_So]

No one in the Protestant ranks claims that that i know of. At least not anyone who has not been exposed as a false prophet. As for your fear and trembling about what’s to come, i am trying to find prophecy threads here so we can discuss the signs and maybe put your mind at ease a bit. Or not.

 

[Even_So]

The Lord did not found His Church on an inanimate rock.

People need to really pray to the Holy Spirit for His guidance as all the proof doesn’t make sense…but another platform to disagree…

Idunno what doesn’t make sense. We should all be in agreement that is a metaphor.

 

[Even_So]

So can you explain how the church could be built on faith alone? Or could it be, it is both Peter the person and his faith…you cannot separate the two, which you are attempting…

 

[YADA]

pablope;12510860:

I never think of Peter as the Rock, i think of Christ as the Rock. As for faith, how/why did Abraham get rewarded?

Jesus called Peter the Rock upon which He would build his Church … If Jesus tells you that Simon is the Rock why would you not see him as the Rock? Honest question … the passage is straight forward - so straight forward that Jesus actually changes his name to Rock … which is never a non important event in the Scriptures - unless you believe this is the first instance in the Scriptures where a name change is recorded for no purpose

Your presumption here seems to be that becoming the head of the Church [an office - read Isaiah 22 which Jesus is quoting] is a “reward” - like winning the Apostolic Lottery … some grand and glorious “get out of jail free” card - that Peter sought out and grabbed like a “brass ring” … nothing could be farther then the truth.

Its a responsibility that comes at a personal cost - great personal cost at times … and even those throughout history have courted and sought it out [like many who seek the presidency today - I expect] are burdened by the responsibilities for the people they lead.

As you point out by reference … Others in Salvation history also shared this burden before Peter and the successors of Peter - like Abraham, Moses, Elijah, David, John the Baptist, etc. … Their reward may be leadership but it is not for the faint of heart and it is not a “Prize”

And since you mention Abraham … Abraham was a man who God also renames … like Simon becomes Peter - the Rock upon which Jesus builds His [Jesus’] Church, Abram become Abraham, the father of multitudes …

 

[Randy_Carson]

I never think of Peter as the Rock, i think of Christ as the Rock.

That’s understandable. However, in Mt. 16:18, Jesus is the builder and Peter is the rock (kepha in Aramaic).

Remember, Jesus renamed Simon “Cephas” (Kepha), and Paul uses the name “Cephas” in Galatians 2. Apparently, the nickname stuck, bedcause we still call Simon by his nickname “Peter” or “Rock” to this day.

Kepha is Aramaic for “rock”
Cephas is Greek for “kepha”
Petros is Greek for rock
Peter is English for Petros

 

[LionHeart777]

I never think of Peter as the [r]ock, i think of Christ as the Rock…

The two beliefs are complementary, not contradictory. As are the facts that:

a.) Christ is the foundation of the Church (1 Cor. 3:11)

b.) The Apostles and Prophets are the foundation of the Church (Eph. 2:20)

c.) St. Peter is the foundation of the Church by virtue of the fact that he is the rock that Christ built His Church upon (Mt. 16:18-19) (cf. Sts. Ephraim, Ambrose)

The Catholic Church sees the two interpretations of the rock in Mt. 16:18-19 being St. Peter and being his confession of faith as complementary; while acknowledging that the plain meaning of the text is that St. Peter is the rock. Thus we read in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

“881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the ‘rock’ of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock. ‘The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head.’ This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church’s very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.”

Yet, we also read:

“424 Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.”

Source: ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=rock&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

In like manner, St. John Chrysostom could say in his exegesis of St. Matthew 16:18-19 that the rock was St. Peter’s confession of faith. And yet, elsewhere he could declare that St. Peter is “‘…the unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation…’ ” (De Eleemos III, 4, vol II, 298[300])” or “‘…the foundation of the Church’ (Hom 3 in Matt 5, vol VII, 38[42])” (Source: philvaz.com/apologetics/num52.htm)

 

[TheFraggle]

It says something when South Park, a very secular cartoon show acknowledges that Peter was indeed the first pope, and head of the church.

 

[steve_b]

Too hard for me to figure out how to do the quotes and i don’t want to take the time.

Randy gave good instruction how to use the forum formatting to seperate comments within a conversation.

In the meantime, while you’re getting used to the formatting on this forum,

I’ll seperate your response from mine

:
Originally Posted by steve b forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Jesus said upon “this rock”.

Jesus changed Simon’s name to Rock. John 1:42 , Κηφᾶς,

ES:

Peter’s nickname is stone and his faith was rock solid.

steve:

It’s NOT a nickname, and It’s Peter and his faith. Jesus is speaking directly to Peter / Rock

ES:

If we have faith and accept Jesus Christ as Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Savior of us and the world,

steve:

If you believe that why aren’t you Catholic? Protestants began 1500+ years after Jesus established His Church. The Holy Spirit isn’t the author of division from the Catholic Church.

division doesn’t come from the HS .John 16:12-15 . And Jesus doesn’t want ANY division from what He established John 17:20-23. Therefore all the confusion and divisions of protestantism didn’t come from Jesus. Such Division from Our Lord’s Church is actually condemned in scripture. (Paul writing to the Church of Rome )
Romans 16:17-20 condemning those who διχοστασίας dichostasia= division / dissension / factions /sedition from the Church

ES:

I will say one thing i have learned here is the CC is the only way to Salvation. And again, as Seeker2014 said. I believe Satan as the author of division. But **what did Jesus mean by this: **
Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

steve:

Re: John 17:20-23

Jesus came to seperate those who would believe in HIM (i.e. do everything Jesus commands ) from those who won’t… He does NOT split or divide His Church. THAT’S the difference.

ES:

Another thing i learned is there is dissension in your church also. I thought all Catholics were on the same page, but not so. You have several denominations of your own.

steve:

There are no denominations in the Catholic Church. “Rites” in the Catholic Church as in Eastern Rites, all believe the same because they are in complete union with the pope. They ARE on the same page. Otherwise they wouldn’t be “Rites”. They are NOT denominations. They are not in dissent. They are Eastern Catholics

ES:

I don’t know where i ever implied i don’t sin. You no know me too well, obviously. I believe Satan can play head games, but not force me to do anything.
Jesus is the sifter, as in the parable of the sower.
I have yet to read Job, unfortunately, but wasn’t Satan allowed to take his family but leave him alone?
I believe Satan can cause commotion in our churches, and even burn them down*.*

steve:

my response was based on your following comment

"then we receive the Holy Spirit in our evil hearts and should have no fear of going to hell. Satan has no power over us. "

I highlighted specifically what I was responding to. EVERYONE should have fear of hell. Mortal sin is possible for EVERYONE to commit. And if one dies in mortal sin they go directly to hell. That’s scripture, and that is what’s behind my comment.

ES:

Discouraging, but not a game changer.
I try to stay very humble about entering God’s Kingdom and still have my doubts about going, and believe it’s healthy to think that unlike a few people i have known . But i used to live my life knowing i was going to hell, even though i accepted Jesus into my heart as my savior while a child. That’s no way to live, my friend. That’s my conviction by the Holy Spirit.

steve:

That phrase and what’s behind it is NOT in scripture. If one “accepts Jesus” then then one DOES what He says. They can’t DO what they want to do thinking they asked Jesus into their heart at some point in their history and everything from that point is a gurantee to heaven.

living forever is guranteed by virtue of our souls being immortal. The soul doesn’t die. The question is where will the soul be for eternity. Heaven i.e. in context, “everlasting life” is **not **assured for everyone, without conditions and qualifications being met.

 

[Alex_Swol]

OK, the 2 of you are having quite a discussion over something that seems simple to me.
When we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour and when we have the Spirit in us, as I do,
our life is different. We now have peace and we learn to live each day with the knowledge
that NOTHING CAN HAPPEN TO ME TODAY THAT THE LORD AND I CANNOT HANDLE.
Why are the 2 of you making such a big deal out of all this?:quoting scripture etc. Maybe I
am just a weak Catholic, but I came into the Spirit many many years ago and I have had a
near death experience also and I would never have a conversation, whether on-line or in
person, such as the 2 of you are having.
Lighten up and give it up. Let go and let God. What is with “You MUST do as GOD says”?
The Lord gave us a brain and a conscious to know right from wrong. We SHOULD do as
HE would want us to do. Living our life the way Jesus would want us to is the most wonderful
life. I know. I try to do it every day. Live by example. Let your faith shine thru for all to see.

 

[steve_b]

OK, the 2 of you are having quite a discussion over something that seems simple to me.
When we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour and when we have the Spirit in us, as I do,
our life is different. We now have peace and we learn to live each day with the knowledge
that NOTHING CAN HAPPEN TO ME TODAY THAT THE LORD AND I CANNOT HANDLE.
Why are the 2 of you making such a big deal out of all this?:quoting scripture etc. Maybe I
am just a weak Catholic, but I came into the Spirit many many years ago and I have had a
near death experience also and I would never have a conversation, whether on-line or in
person, such as the 2 of you are having.
Lighten up and give it up. Let go and let God. What is with “You MUST do as GOD says”?
The Lord gave us a brain and a conscious to know right from wrong. We SHOULD do as
HE would want us to do. Living our life the way Jesus would want us to is the most wonderful
life. I know. I try to do it every day. Live by example. Let your faith shine thru for all to see.

What is with “You MUST do as GOD says”?

How about this.

Jn 6:
51 I am the living breadc] which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”d] 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”

What part of that sounds like a suggestion and NOT a command that must be done? What part of that command can one disobey and think they are okay with God? Those are all conditional statements. Which means the condition must be met if one wants a good outcome for their soul

Protestants don’t have the Eucharist. They can’t filfill that command.

This is just one of many commands that go along with the obedience of faith.

 

[Alex_Swol]

I prefer not to discuss this any further with you. I know all about the commands you
quote. I went to Catholic grammar school, high school and college. Don’t give me your
authoratative mumbo jumbo. You are texting to an intelligent person who knows a lot about the Bible and the Catholic faith.
I just think you go overboard. Enough. I do not want to continue this. You have your ideas
and I have mine. Peace.

 

[Even_So]

I prefer not to discuss this any further with you. I know all about the commands you
quote. I went to Catholic grammar school, high school and college. Don’t give me your
authoratative mumbo jumbo. You are texting to an intelligent person who knows a lot about the Bible and the Catholic faith.
I just think you go overboard. Enough. I do not want to continue this. You have your ideas
and I have mine. Peace.

Aw c’mon Alex. It was just getting fun. but i guess there’s no sense in retorting. However , i am not cool with my line of thinking of faith being related to a prize from a box of Cracker Jacks. That’s what i get for being a Protestant here :crying: . This is not pointed at you Alex. You are taking the high road.I bet if we were all to meet face to face this would not feel so hostile. I do have a couple questions from here tho, so i will post them on a new thread at some point. So where in upstate NY are you? I’m in Hastings 13076. Later, y’all. And happy Thanksgiving…