Christ Did NOT make Peter the head of the church

[Zooey]

(snip)

Sometimes these threads are like beating a dead horse.

:newidea:
[SIGN1]You know what? CAF really:yup:, badly:sad_yes:, needs:bighanky: a :nunchuk:beating-a-dead-horse :imsorry:smiley!
Of course, we might get picketed by the ASPCA…:frighten:[/SIGN1]

 

[guanophore]

Man, i blew thru a few of these but many make this is all to confusing so let us try to simplify it.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Jesus did not say upon your rock. Jesus asked Peter who Peter thought Jesus was.
Now we go back three verses.
Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Again, Jesus says upon this rock. The rock is not any person(s), but faith. How did God reveal it? Thru the Holy Spirit! Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the unforgivable sin. If we have faith and accept Jesus Christ as Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Savior of us and the world, then we receive the Holy Spirit in our evil hearts and should have no fear of going to hell. Satan has no power over us. Now we can be assured of everlasting life. Of course, we have to walk the walk if we talk the talk…

While Jesus is THE rock, and Peter makes a “rocky” statement, how can you explain that Jesus renamed Simon son of Jonah to Kephas? Peter’s new identity as a rock of faith cannot be escaped.

Too hard for me to figure out how to do the quotes and i don’t want to take the time. Another thing i learned is there is dissension in your church also. I thought all Catholics were on the same page, but not so. You have several denominations of your own.

The Truth is not defined by those who rebel against it. Of course there are persons who have been baptized that later reject their faith. they have lost their Catholicity. There is One Faith, and one Teaching.

 

[guanophore]

Well from the defination Catholics hold, Me not being Catholic I must be protestant.
Honestly how I see it I am just kinda out here in the world looking for Biblical Truth. I do not really fit anywhere.

Been looking at you guys though. Raised protestant.

Glad you are here at CAF.

I was in your shoes at one time, searching for Biblical Truth and a place where I could really fit in somewhere(a congregation that believed as I did).

Finally I realized that I was chasing my own ego. Instead of searching for where “I” fit , I needed to search for the Church founded by Christ, and be transformed, so that I fit into His Building.

 

[Even_So]

While Jesus is THE rock, and Peter makes a “rocky” statement, how can you explain that Jesus renamed Simon son of Jonah to Kephas? Peter’s new identity as a rock of faith cannot be escaped.

The Truth is not defined by those who rebel against it. Of course there are persons who have been baptized that later reject their faith. they have lost their Catholicity. There is One Faith, and one Teaching.

Thank you for those comments. I do see where Peter comes in and i do believe that you can lose your salvation. Hmmm; maybe another thread somewhere on the latter, or do i need to start suntin again? :doh: Hava safe and happy Thanksgiving.

 

[Even_So]

:newidea:
[SIGN1]You know what? CAF really:yup:, badly:sad_yes:, needs:bighanky: a :nunchuk:beating-a-dead-horse :imsorry:smiley!
Of course, we might get picketed by the ASPCA…:frighten:[/SIGN1]

Good one and agree my sister or brother (assuming sister by the kitty kats, but have been wrong before. Really! You know us Protestants always having to be right). Tried to put in a smiley, but you used them all up, (smile, lol, blah, blah…)! Peace and we gone, bye bye.

 

[Even_So]

Hey, i just noticed you are Methodist. Wow, you got some posts under you.

 

[steve_b]

I prefer not to discuss this any further with you. I know all about the commands you
quote. I went to Catholic grammar school, high school and college. Don’t give me your
authoratative mumbo jumbo. You are texting to an intelligent person who knows a lot about the Bible and the Catholic faith.
I just think you go overboard. Enough. I do not want to continue this. You have your ideas
and I have mine. Peace.

You asked the question and I answered you.

 

[Zooey]

Good one and agree my sister or brother (assuming sister by the kitty kats, but have been wrong before. Really! You know us Protestants always having to be right). Tried to put in a smiley, but you used them all up, (smile, lol, blah, blah…)! Peace and we gone, bye bye.

Yup, a :curtsey:sister in Christ. And yes, a Methodist.
The longer you know me, the more you will realize that I* always* use up all the smileys. That’s one way you can know its:thumbsup: me, & not one of the cats. (The older–but much smaller–cat, Mona the Perfect, :bowdown:Queen of All She Surveys. She is altogether too:sad_yes: technologically savvy; she all ready has:crying: messed up my keyboard :hypno:2x todayuch.

 

[spina1953]

I prefer not to discuss this any further with you. I know all about the commands you
quote. I went to Catholic grammar school, high school and college. Don’t give me your
authoratative mumbo jumbo. You are texting to an intelligent person who knows a lot about the Bible and the Catholic faith.
I just think you go overboard. Enough. I do not want to continue this. You have your ideas
and I have mine. Peace.

Hi Alex: I am wondering if you don’t to continue posting with us why are you on CAF if you know so much? the reason we are here is to inform and to defend what we know about our Catholic faith and those who want to know. we are all called to share the faith as we know and understand it. there are those who want to know and ask questions and its a back and forth thing we do and is not personal.

 

[pablope]

Quote:
So can you explain how the church could be built on faith alone? Or could it be, it is both Peter the person and his faith…you cannot separate the two, which you are attempting…

I never think of Peter as the Rock, i think of Christ as the Rock.

So what you are really saying, is you are engaging in mental gymnastics to deny what is plainly read in Scripture…that Jesus named changed Simon’s name to Kephas/Petros/Rock…

So back to the question I asked: So can you explain how the church could be built on faith alone? Or could it be, it is both Peter the person and his faith

As for faith, how/why did Abraham get rewarded?

By having Abraham’s name changed and the command to be a father of many nations:

Abram to Abraham……Gen 17:15….Neither shall thy name be called any more Abram: but thou shalt be called Abraham: because I have made thee a father of many nations.

And see the similarity to Simon/Kephas/Rock/Peter:

Matt 16…16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,** and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.”

Look at Peter’s first infallible declaration:

15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”**

 

[Alex_Swol]

Hi Alex: I am wondering if you don’t to continue posting with us why are you on CAF if you know so much? the reason we are here is to inform and to defend what we know about our Catholic faith and those who want to know. we are all called to share the faith as we know and understand it. there are those who want to know and ask questions and its a back and forth thing we do and is not personal.

Spina: I know what I was taught and what I read in my Bible. I do Not know everything!!!
I am on this site for the same reason everyone else is. To learn and to share. A

 

[spina1953]

Spina: I know what I was taught and what I read in my Bible. I do Not know everything!!!
I am on this site for the same reason everyone else is. To learn and to share. A

OK, I just sounded by your post that you did not want to be bothered by the posts you read.

 

[adrift]

 OK, the 2 of you are having quite a discussion over something that seems simple to me.

When we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour and when we have the Spirit in us, as I do,
our life is different. We now have peace and we learn to live each day with the knowledge
that NOTHING CAN HAPPEN TO ME TODAY THAT THE LORD AND I CANNOT HANDLE.
Why are the 2 of you making such a big deal out of all this?:quoting scripture etc. Maybe I
am just a weak Catholic, but I came into the Spirit many many years ago and I have had a
near death experience also and I would never have a conversation, whether on-line or in
person, such as the 2 of you are having.
Lighten up and give it up. Let go and let God. What is with “You MUST do as GOD says”?
The Lord gave us a brain and a conscious to know right from wrong. We SHOULD do as
HE would want us to do. Living our life the way Jesus would want us to is the most wonderful
life. I know. I try to do it every day. Live by example. Let your faith shine thru for all to see.

I do not understand this post. It does not address the topic of the thread. It is a non sequitur.

]I prefer not to discuss this any further with you. I know all about the commands you
quote. I went to Catholic grammar school, high school and college. Don’t give me your
authoratative mumbo jumbo. You are texting to an intelligent person who knows a lot about the Bible and the Catholic faith.
I just think you go overboard. Enough. I do not want to continue this. You have your ideas
and I have mine. Peace

Spina: I know what I was taught and what I read in my Bible. I do Not know everything!!!
I am on this site for the same reason everyone else is. To learn and to share. A

Your statement does lead one to believe that you are not hear to learn or discuss. You make a post it is answered and you huff away.

It makes me wonder your purpose of posting. What did it have to do with the topic?

 

[GangGreen]

I could be wrong, but I believe even the Orthodox can agree with the idea that Christ made Peter the head of the Church. Where Catholics and Orthodox disagree is that the Orthodox believe that that supremacy died with Peter. They agreed that the Pope has primacy, but that this primacy is more of an honorary title than anything else. Us Catholics think differently.

The Bible makes it clear that Peter was the chief of the Apostles. I don’t know how any Christian can deny it when you examine the evidence. If you want to believe that title died with Peter, that’s something that gets into another realm of discussion.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I could be wrong, but I believe even the Orthodox can agree with the idea that Christ made Peter the head of the Church. Where Catholics and Orthodox disagree is that the Orthodox believe that that supremacy died with Peter. They agreed that the Pope has primacy, but that this primacy is more of an honorary title than anything else. Us Catholics think differently.

The Bible makes it clear that Peter was the chief of the Apostles. I don’t know how any Christian can deny it when you examine the evidence. If you want to believe that title died with Peter, that’s something that gets into another realm of discussion.

For the Orthodox to believe the supremacy died with Peter, the Orthodox would deny and loose all Apostolic Succession from the original Apostles.

There is no denying the Popes primacy. A change to Apostolic view of Peter’s primacy and Supremacy does not enter history until the Emperor of the Roman Empire placed a Patriarch in the new Rome Constantinople. It is not until the late fourth early fifth century the Apostolic sees Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria apostolic authority is usurped by the Patriarch of Constantinople.

The Patriarch of Constantinople could not usurp authority from the Apostolic see from the Bishop of Rome, that all he could do, was claim equality with the Bishop of Rome Peter’s Apostolic successor.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

pablope;12518189
So back to the question I asked: So can you explain how the church could be built on faith alone? Or could it be, it is both Peter the person and his faith

Jesus does not build His Church upon faith alone. For one the greatest faith Jesus finds in all of Israel, was the Faith Jesus found in a Pagan Roman Centurion, who asked Jesus to heal his servant with just His Word.

The First disciple to profess Jesus as the Son of God was not Peter, it was Nathanael, yet Jesus does not begin to build His Church neither on the greatest faith He finds on all of Israel, nor does Jesus begin to build His church upon Nathanael who is the first disciple to profess Jesus as the Son of God.

Thus it is Simon Bar Jona’s profession of faith, whom the Father in heaven revealed to Simon Bar Jona who Jesus is, the Son of the Living God. By this divine sign from our heavenly Father who gives Jesus the sign to begin building His Church on the changed character of Simon Bar Jona to Peter the Rock which Jesus begins to build HIs Church upon.

Thus a faith alone contradicts the heavenly sign from the Father to His Son Jesus of whom the Father chose for Jesus to build His Church upon.

 

[steve_b]

I could be wrong, but I believe even the Orthodox can agree with the idea that Christ made Peter the head of the Church. Where Catholics and Orthodox disagree is that the Orthodox believe that that supremacy died with Peter. They agreed that the Pope has primacy, but that this primacy is more of an honorary title than anything else. Us Catholics think differently.

The Bible makes it clear that Peter was the chief of the Apostles. I don’t know how any Christian can deny it when you examine the evidence. If you want to believe that title died with Peter, that’s something that gets into another realm of discussion.

And those who take that position don’t know history.

Bp Irenaeus, one man away from the apostle John, gives in his work “Against Heresies”, already the names of 12 bishops of Rome in succession from Peter, down to his day as an important point in discussing authority in the Catholic Church. That Church of Rome, that all Churches must agree with on account of it’s “pre-eminent authority.” And where does Irenaeus say this tradition came from? Peter and Paul

Bk 3 Chapter 3 v 1-3

 

[prodromos]

For the Orthodox to believe the supremacy died with Peter, the Orthodox would deny and loose all Apostolic Succession from the original Apostles.

Its a red herring because we Orthodox never understood Peter to have supremacy as understood by the Latin church.

 

[steve_b]

Its a red herring because we Orthodox never understood Peter to have supremacy as understood by the Latin church.

I’ve asked this question dozens of times. No answer yet… but I’m hopeful for an answer

When is the 1st time in history, in writing, that we see “Orthodox Church”?

Please give the reference properly referenced.

 

[Alex_Swol]

To all of you: I apologize if I have offended anyone. I do not mean to seem like
a know-it-all or an arrogant person. Forgive me.
I am on this site to learn and to share as all of you are. When I say I know a lot it is due
to my education. I went to Catholic grammar school, high school and some college. My
faith is very precious to me and without it I would not have endured all that I have gone
thru. I have survived abuse, alcoholism, mental breakdowns and clinical depression. Now
I am in a wheelchair due to botched up back surgery. My faith has brought me thru all this
and will see me thru more if it becomes necessary.
I really enjoy communicating with all of you, but I admit to getting annoyed when some of
you go to extremes with answers. I prefer to keep it simple.
One of you asked where in Upstate New York I lived. I will answer this way: I live between
Irondequoit Bay and Canandaigua Lake. If you know where they are you can figure it out.
If you are savvy with a computer, you can find me. Please don’t rush to try it. I prefer my
privacy as i am sure most of you do to. I am a 72 year old very much married grandmother
of 18 and mother of 5.
Have a great nite. I am watching DWTS at 8:00