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Samie
Guest
Why ask where in the Bible did Jesus teach it is the final authority when the Bible is not yet printed then?
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SwissGuard25
Guest
It’s not a probability they dedicated there selves to God.
You dedicated yourself to Ellen G White.
I am not denying that the original Jewish sabbath was Saturday but you said Jesus Resurrected on a Saturday.
So let’s review
Old Jewish Sabbath is Saturday
Mathew 28:1 says AFTER THE SABBATH (SATURDAY)
Mathew 28:1-3
“1 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow.”
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DexUK
Guest
Samie, has it occured to you that ‘proi prote sabbatou’ could equally well be rendered in English as “early in the morning of the First Sabbath”… which could quite legitimately mean the new Sabbath day, as instituted on a Sunday because that was the day that Jesus was found to have risen from the dead?
The early Christians knew full well which day of the week they were to regard as holy since they’d know exactly what day Christ was first encountered after the crucifixion. They weren’t going to forget something as momentous as that. Not in a ‘month of Sundays’. The day became totally fixed in the calendar and has become an unbreakable tradition within the Christian Church. There simply isn’t any argument about it that holds water and you certainly won’t be persuading any Catholic on this site that there is, so it seems to me to be utterly pointless for you to try.
Meanwhile you have said you don’t ascribe to the beliefs of the founder of the SDA sect. If that is the case, why on earth do you describe yourself as a member of the SDA then?
The early Christians knew full well which day of the week they were to regard as holy since they’d know exactly what day Christ was first encountered after the crucifixion. They weren’t going to forget something as momentous as that. Not in a ‘month of Sundays’. The day became totally fixed in the calendar and has become an unbreakable tradition within the Christian Church. There simply isn’t any argument about it that holds water and you certainly won’t be persuading any Catholic on this site that there is, so it seems to me to be utterly pointless for you to try.
Meanwhile you have said you don’t ascribe to the beliefs of the founder of the SDA sect. If that is the case, why on earth do you describe yourself as a member of the SDA then?
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in_servitude
Guest
You teach that I would do well to become a “Sabbath-keeper.” I will assume that you have concluded that this is in the best interest of everyone since that is the desire of Christ - to be a Sabbath-keeper. However, after reading all of the arguments so far in this thread from you and others, I reject this teaching of yours. For me to accept it, one would have to produce a crystal clear argument. But, your teaching requires a leap of faith.
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EricFilmer
Guest
The Greek Orthodox Church teaches that Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday.
If your personal translation and interpretation of the passages in question are correct, that means that millions of members of the Greek Orthodox Church have been misinterpreting their own language for nearly 2000 years!
Quite frankly, I find such a position extremely far-fetched, to say the least.
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Samie
Guest
I’m amazed at how you so readily forget you were the one who first used the word ‘probably’.
And how sure are you, you do not lie about me in your statement?
So what point are you driving? That because of the earthquake Christ resurrected? Where is that implied to in the verse you quoted? Do you mean for every earthquake there is resurrection? From what I know, for every great earthquake, death come to many.
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Samie
Guest
Could be. But to say the ‘First Sabbath’ refers to and “legitimately mean the new Sabbath day, as instituted on a Sunday” is against Scriptures. Nowhere in the Bible is that idea even hinted at. Please show me if you know one.
If you are saying the day they first encountered Christ was on a Sunday is of no concern to me. Naturally they could have encountered Him after finding His tomb empty because He already resurrected. When? Mark recorded it was on ‘proi prote sabbatou’ = ‘early morning of the chief sabbath’, the day we now call Saturday.
And I’m not into persuading anyone. I am just presenting truth.
If by ‘founder’ you mean Ellen G. White, you are mistaken. EGW was not the founder of the SDA Church.
Why I describe myself a member of SDA Church? Because I am still a member until now. I attend church services on Saturday in SDA churches. I did not say I do not ascribe to ALL SDA beliefs. I did say I did not believe as they do as to when Christ resurrected.
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Trevor_Stamm
Guest
Still awaiting for a reponse on this, tell me what you think of this paper.
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Samie
Guest
At the time of Christ, the Jews also misinterpreted portions of their own law which they had for more than a millennium. Even now, the Jews have wrong notions of Messianic prophecies which they have for more than 3000 years!
The fact that a teaching is believed on for quite so long does not make it truth. On the other hand, truth remains truth even if not believed on.
po18guy
Well-known member
I have no doubt that the OP loves Christ, and is a true brother in Christ. However, this thread serves only as further proof of the absolute failure of ‘bible alone’. Except for the tiny sabbatarian group of Seventh Day Baptists, who use the same bible the SDA do, yet disagree with them, not a single other sect in almost 2,000 years agrees with SDA foundress Ellen Gouild White’s biblically-prohibited private interpretation of scripture. Since the SDA is founded on a biblically prohibited principle, and its doctrines were generated by a “prophetess” is it any wonder that the Adventists have such unusual beliefs as compared to all other Christians? They do indeed share some doctrines with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, such as “soul sleep”, “soul annihilation” of the wicked at the Parousia, Jesus being Saint Michael the archangel, etc.
The Seventh Day Adventist organization, as it stands, is the product of “visions” reportedly received by their foundress, Ellen Gould White, who received a severe head trauma in her youth, was in a coma for two weeks, and was allegedly later poisoned by mercury from exposure to it in the hat-making business. Only after these two occurrences did she receive her “visions”. The SDA believe in on-going revelation, and place Ellen’s prolific, almost incessant writings at the inspired level - but just below scripture.
They have virulent anti-Catholicsm (of course) in their DNA. By dint of their Trinitarian baptism (and just where did they get the “Trinity” from, hmmmmmm?), they are true Christians, but are clearly a fringe sect, due to their many peculiar beliefs.
I heartily suggest that the OP enter into prayer about his allegation that God allowed believers to walk in sin and darkness for over 1,800 years until a woman with head trauma in 1800s America began to prophesy and revealed the “real truth.”
In making these allegations, I see the SDA as making a judgment not so much upon the Catholic Church (and those she has ‘fooled’ into Sunday worship), as they do upon God Himself. And, that is serious business, indeed.
The Seventh Day Adventist organization, as it stands, is the product of “visions” reportedly received by their foundress, Ellen Gould White, who received a severe head trauma in her youth, was in a coma for two weeks, and was allegedly later poisoned by mercury from exposure to it in the hat-making business. Only after these two occurrences did she receive her “visions”. The SDA believe in on-going revelation, and place Ellen’s prolific, almost incessant writings at the inspired level - but just below scripture.
They have virulent anti-Catholicsm (of course) in their DNA. By dint of their Trinitarian baptism (and just where did they get the “Trinity” from, hmmmmmm?), they are true Christians, but are clearly a fringe sect, due to their many peculiar beliefs.
I heartily suggest that the OP enter into prayer about his allegation that God allowed believers to walk in sin and darkness for over 1,800 years until a woman with head trauma in 1800s America began to prophesy and revealed the “real truth.”
In making these allegations, I see the SDA as making a judgment not so much upon the Catholic Church (and those she has ‘fooled’ into Sunday worship), as they do upon God Himself. And, that is serious business, indeed.
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EricFilmer
Guest
Improper comparison. We’re not talking about the misinterpretation of the Law, theological disputes, philosophy or anything like that. We are talking about is simply what day of the week Christ rose from the dead on. There’s not a whole lot of room for debate therein. Going back to your example, yes, some of the Jews misinterpreted things such as how to observe the Sabbath, but they all agreed what day of the week the Sabbath was. The messianic texts of the OT are enigmatic by nature, so obviously such things would result in differences of opinion. Beliefs simply concerning what day Jesus rose from the dead is hardly the same sort of thing.
You’re saying that your personal interpretation of the Greek gospel passages in question is better than literally millions of people who speak the Greek language and live the Greek culture. So I am still waiting for you to provide a compelling reason as to why I should accept your position regarding the Greek language over theirs.
You’re not really addressing my point. Once again I ask, what makes your knowledge of Greek better than that of the Greeks themselves? Because when you make claims such as, “I had shown why the translation ‘first day of the week’ looks improper” (Post #113), that is exactly what you are doing.
Keep in mind that you are making arguments against how English bibles have translated certain Greek phrases. But Greek Orthodox Scripture scholars do not base their teachings upon English translations, but directly upon the Greek. They read the same Greek you did, and for 2000 years have said that it indicates that Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday.
Moreover, I challenge you to quote one Scripture scholar prior to 1840 who interpreted the Gospel passages in question the way you have done in this thread.
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EricFilmer
Guest
The “Sunday-keepers” includes (along with all the Protestant denominations) the Catholic Church, all the various Eastern Orthodox Churches and all the various Oriental Orthodox Churches. Each of these Churches has its origins in one or more of the following Apostolic Sees (and I will list them with their founders):
Rome (Saints Peter and Paul)
Constantinople (St. Andrew)
Alexandria (St. Mark the Evangelist)
Antioch, in present-day Turkey (St. Peter).
Jerusalem (Saints Peter and James)
Archdiocese of Athens (St. Paul)
Ephesus, in present-day Turkey (St. John the Apostle)
Seleucia-Ctesiphon, in present-day Iraq (Saints Thomas the Apostle, Bartholomew the Apostle, and Thaddeus of Edessa)
Aquileia, in northeastern Italy (St. Mark the Evangelist)
See of Milan, in northwestern Italy (St. Barnabas the Apostle)
See of Syracuse, in Sicily (St. Peter)
Philippi, in Greece (St. Paul)
Thessaloniki, in Greece (St. Paul)
Corinth, in Greece (St. Paul)
Malta (St. Paul)
Paphos, in Cyprus (Saints Paul and Barnabas)
Armenian Apostolic Church (Saints Thaddeaus [St. Jude] and Bartholomew the Apostle)
Saint Thomas Christians (St. Thomas)
All the Churches that grew out of these Apostolic Sees have historically taught that Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday. But if Jesus did not rise from the dead on a Sunday, then that means one of these Churches invented this doctrine. With that in mind, I have the following questions for you:
1) Of the Apostolic Churches, which invented the Sunday Resurrection doctrine?
2) What was the reason for inventing the Sunday Resurrection doctrine?
3) How did this Church manage to get all the other Apostolic Churches, spread out over three continents, to play along? Keep in mind that the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Churches and Oriental Orthodox Churches have not been “Best Friends Forever” and have extensively debated theology with one another for centuries. So if, for example, Rome invented a doctrine that was not truly apostolic in origin, one could hardly expect all the various Orthodox Churches to suddenly validate it.
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Samie
Guest
My comments on the paper. It was scholarly done and a good reading. However, to me it failed in attaining its objective of p(name removed by moderator)ointing when Crucifixion occurred, for the following observations:
**1. Why is ‘day of preparation’ not always Friday?
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**2. Why is new-moon citing not reliable to fix Nisan 14 in that Crucifixion year? **
3. Why does the eclipse on 3 April 33 AD disproves the Crucifixion occurred on this same date nor on that same year, 33AD?
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Samie
Guest
Improper perhaps, yet related. Both have the same to do with understanding of or even refusal to understand what is written.
Well, that is your evaluation of what I had posted. The practice of millions just cannot convince me they are right for the Bible explicitly says the saved are a little flock but it is as the sands of the sea on the other side of the fence. Is there anything in Scriptures about Sunday-keeping? You know there’s none. Should I then accept Sunday-keeping just because millions believe in it for so long? So with the resurrection day of the Lord.
I do not claim to be better than anybody else. It is what Scriptures say that I am presenting. You are free to show how I am wrong. You are telling me the Sunday-keeping Greek Orthodox could not be mistaken as to what the Greek means. Indeed, you are right. But that does not in any way lie in the way of practising what is not authorized by the Greek Scriptures, yet, insist the same malpractice is what the Greek testament says knowing full well nobody dare question their understanding of the Greek being their mother tongue. Is this scenario improbable? I don’t think so.
Exactly the same thing they did with Sabbath-keeping to Sunday-keeping. And yet they have the Ten Commandments (although in modified form) displayed in many of their edifices. If they can maneuver Sunday into the forefront, what can prevent them from doing the same with the resurrection day of Christ? Aren’t you curious why the reason for Sunday-keeping is that it was the Lord’s resurrection day? Sorry, but it appears to be a case of a-bogus-rest-day based on-a-bogus-resurrection-day.
As of the moment, I know of no one. But did Copernicus flinch just because no one before him attacked the geocentric theory of the solar system? Did Einstein waver because no one before him had presented the special and general theory of relativity? Were the Wright brothers dissuaded from flying their machine because no one else had done it before them?
po18guy
Well-known member
The posting of anti-Catholic SDA propaganda does not constitute proof of anything, other than an agenda. It is all opinion and absolutely nothing more. While you are still with us, please consider what appears to be the absolute arrogance of assuming that 1,844 years of the greatest Christian minds in history, both Catholic and Protestant, were all wrong, and that a woman who began prophesying after a severe head injury was right.
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Samie
Guest
Astronomical Evidence:
Christ was crucified on the day of preparation of passover (John 19:14). It must be remembered that the Passover, saith the Lord, must be kept in its proper season:
KJV Numbers 9:2-3
NIV Psalm 81:3-5
Notice how God designed the sun and moon as guardians of seasons, days and years:
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Genesis 1:14-16**
eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases0001.html
The following occurrences of the full moon in the years 27AD - 34AD were taken from the above-given link (The weekdays were calculated using a Julian Date converter from the US Naval Observatory site - aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/JulianDate.php):
It can be seen from the above data that Christ could have possibly celebrated Passover with His disciples on the night of March 27, 31 AD (may also be Mar 23, 34 AD), Tuesday, full moon. The day following, Wednesday, He was crucified. 3 days and 3 nights later, He rose from the grave, on ‘proi prote sabbatou’ or early morning of the chief Sabbath, Saturday.
Christ was crucified on the day of preparation of passover (John 19:14). It must be remembered that the Passover, saith the Lord, must be kept in its proper season:
KJV Numbers 9:2-3
The proper season for celebrating it is on the full moon:
NIV Psalm 81:3-5
“Full moon” in Hebrew is “kece”, translated “time appointed” in the KJV.
Notice how God designed the sun and moon as guardians of seasons, days and years:
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Genesis 1:14-16**
As far as the phases of the moon are concerned, they can readily be calculated forward or backwards in time. The following link from NASA - a six (6) millennium catalog of moon phases authored by Fred Espenak - I just recently came across, will give us the full moon in the years 1 - 100 AD:
eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases0001.html
The following occurrences of the full moon in the years 27AD - 34AD were taken from the above-given link (The weekdays were calculated using a Julian Date converter from the US Naval Observatory site - aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/JulianDate.php):
Christ, Who came to fulfill the law (Matt 5:17) including the law on when Passover is to be celebrated, held it right on the dot: when the moon was full. He could not have celebrated it otherwise.
It can be seen from the above data that Christ could have possibly celebrated Passover with His disciples on the night of March 27, 31 AD (may also be Mar 23, 34 AD), Tuesday, full moon. The day following, Wednesday, He was crucified. 3 days and 3 nights later, He rose from the grave, on ‘proi prote sabbatou’ or early morning of the chief Sabbath, Saturday.
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Trevor_Stamm
Guest
The Magi saw there was a King born of the Jews just by observing the stars and follow the star of Bethlehem, which simply was Jupiter coming in conjunction with Regulas, to the location of Christ. I think, also given the high visibility of the sky back then, Jewish astronomers could handle detecting lunar activity.
You’re forgetting that the Jews declared a day starts from sunset and ends at sunset. The blood moon happened during the day, as the paper shows how it was visible in Jerusalem of 33 AD, of Nisan 14 and that night was Nisan 15 which had, of course, a full moon. Saturday night was Nisan 16. This is why Saturday night Vigil Mass counts as a Sunday Mass for the sun has set.
Something interesting about Nisan 16 as well, it’s the Feast of First Fruits.
So the spotless lamb of Passover was slaughtered on the altar and the blood of the lamb was presented in the Most Holy of Holies of Nisan 14 at the same time the Lamb of God was slaughtered on the Cross and his blood was poured out on the earth. On Nisan 15 was the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which this bread signified incorruptibility, the same day the Bread of Life was resting and his tomb where “his flesh did not see corruption” and fulfilling scripture, “Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; nor wilt then give thy holy one to see corruption.” And he rose from the dead on Nisan 16, the Feast of First Fruits as Christ is proclaimed as the firstfruit as he spoke in John 12:[23] But Jesus answered them, saying: The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. [24] Amen, amen I say to you, unless the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, … [32] And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all things to myself. Is what happened in Matt 27:[52] And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose, [53] And coming out of the tombs after his resurrection, came into the holy city, and appeared to many.
I’m sorry but scripture, history, science, and the sheer poetry explained above is far more compatible with the original stance that he was crucified on Nisan 14 and rose from the dead on Nisan 16. It was a good try though
po18guy
Well-known member
The SDA teach, and fervently believe, that the Church of Christ, headquartered in Rome, is the “whore of Babylon”. They teach that the Pope is the antichrist. There is much to pray for in regard to their relatively recently formed (in Christian history) organization.
Any Catholic wishing to know more about the SDA may consult with The Essential Catholic Survival Guide*****, available right here at CAF.
***** an excellent resource for any and all Catholics
Any Catholic wishing to know more about the SDA may consult with The Essential Catholic Survival Guide*****, available right here at CAF.
***** an excellent resource for any and all Catholics
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SwissGuard25
Guest
IT WAS ALWAYS SATURDAY THE ORIGINAL JEWISH SABBATH WAS ON SATURDAY. AT THE TIME OF THE APOSTLES THE SABBATH WAS SATURDAY!!!
That is how we know Jesus Resurrected on a Sunday Morning because Mathew 28:1 says he Resurrected AFTER THE SABBATH
So I repeat.
Mathew 28:1-3
“1AFTER THE SABBATH, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow.”
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