Christian Denomination that believes/teaches faith AND works

[spiderweb]

Very close but there difference is that my works do not save me. My faith in Jesus Christ saves me by the Grace of God. No work(s) saves me but are my response to God in love.

Catholics do not believe that our works save us. Again, what you are stating IS the Catholic position exactly.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Your first part is exactly what the Catholic faith believes. Why you think that a Catholic would go off to works leading to salvation is a misunderstanding on your part. You used the correct terms “we are then called to action” and “we are commanded”. These are not options, and if you refuse to do them, you no longer have the grace of Christ’s sacrifice, you crucify Christ again as scripture says. At judgement if we ended our lives not doing what we were called to, we will be cast out of God’s kingdom. You seem to think the way the Church has taught for 2,000 years, why you think that we believe something different now must be that you have talked to the wrong people. God bless you, you seem you have figured something out that many will never discover.

I was once Catholic so there is no misunderstanding. The misunderstanding, whatever faith tradition a person belongs to, is when they start trying to earn their way into heaven without actually living their faith.

 

[aidanbradypop]

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. - Matt 16:27

“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done." - Rev 22:12

Justification is more than the forgiveness of sins. It is the life of Christ manifest in each Christian, in union with Christ, through baptism.

Yes. When one places their faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit comes upon on us. We are saying the same

 

[aidanbradypop]

So, I’ll reword my previous post and ask again…

Why do some people insist on faith alone, when they do not actually believe that it is faith alone? Why do some people reject the Catholic position when they know that the Catholic position of faith and works is biblical, valid, and that they themselves believe it?

I just don’t get it… Am I missing something?

I would say you will find most rejection from a fundamentalist OSAS believer. Once again it is the whole working for salvation is all they see. Some Evangelicals just want to be as far apart from Catholicism as they can even though they believe they must live as a Christian. Tell them to read Romans 12. That is all about responding to God in love.

Catholics do not believe that our works save us. Again, what you are stating IS the Catholic position exactly.

Well glad we agree lol

 

[Stilldreamn]

But those works in and of themselves do not save you right?

Well…it’s not either/or. It’s both/and. I don’t think that Catholics believe that their own personal works save them apart from God’s Grace - and faith is a gift of Grace, refreshed with the sacraments and Word.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Yes. When one places their faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit comes upon on us. We are saying the same

But we are not; if you are saying that one will not be in the kingdom after the parousia based on the life of Christ they manifest during their lives, but simply based on their faith.

 

[spiderweb]

Salvation by Works was actually an old heresy called Pelagianism and was condemned by the Catholic Church in 418 A.D. at the Council of Carthage.

Very briefly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Paragraph 1992: “Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men.”

Paragraph 1993: “Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent.”

Paragraph 1992 rejects the idea that we can earn our salvation, and paragraph 1993 confirms that man’s part is the assent of faith in cooperation of charity.

 

[aidanbradypop]

But we are not; if you are saying that one will not be in the kingdom after the parousia based on the life of Christ they manifest during their lives, but simply based on their faith.

I’m kind of confused at what you are trying to get at. When we accept the gift of salvation, we are justified by our faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Christ then dwells in us by the Holy Spirit as promised. We are then called to be like Christ. A impossible task to achieve due to our sinful nature, yet we are still called to do so. Does that answer what you were asking or am I still completely off lol

Salvation by Works was actually an old heresy called Pelagianism and was condemned by the Catholic Church in 418 A.D. at the Council of Carthage.

Very briefly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Paragraph 1992: “Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men.”

Paragraph 1993: “Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent.”

Paragraph 1992 rejects the idea that we can earn our salvation, and paragraph 1993 confirms that man’s part is the assent of faith in cooperation of charity.

I dont believe Catholics works their way to heaven. Thank you for trying to convince me though however Go now and find a fundamentalist hehehe

 

[spiderweb]

I dont believe Catholics works their way to heaven. Thank you for trying to convince me though however Go now and find a fundamentalist hehehe

LOL

But in an earlier post I understood that you hold to faith alone, which doesn’t make any sense to me if you actually believe in faith and works, plus you really sound Catholic. I’m sorry, I’m just another confused Catholic hehe

 

[Magdalena59]

Ok I hope this is posted in the correct area…

IS there are Christian Denomination that teaches and believes that both FAITH AND WORKS are needed?

James 2:14-26 faith without works is dead.
Ephesians 2:8-10 faith and grace alone.
James 2:24 righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Would they not go hand n hand? (faith grace and works)
Should not faith and works sow each other naturally?

I ask this because I know the big argument with Protestant vs. Catholism is that one is by faith and grace alone and the other is by works… but I do not believe things are black and white and there is gray area…
I was curious if there is a denomination that does teach and believe both and who… and/or if there are denominations that does teach both but are falsely accused of just one or the other.

I will name a few. I didn’t see where anyone else was answering this:

Orthodox Christians

Some Amish

Churches of Christ churchesofchrist.net/authors/Gary_L_Grizzell/salvation/faithonly.htm

:
The United Methodist church believes, insist that faith and works go together.

I think the question is maybe stated better: Can one be saved just by believing in Jesus and are they assured of that salvation no matter what or do they need to be doers of the Word and can that salvation be lost. Is salvation being saved, being renewed and transformed in His image?

lonelypilgrim.com/2015/02/12/why-the-catholic-understanding-of-justification-is-not-faith-plus-works/

 

[aidanbradypop]

LOL

But in an earlier post I understood that you hold to faith alone, which doesn’t make any sense to me if you actually believe in faith and works, plus you really sound Catholic. I’m sorry, I’m just another confused Catholic hehe

The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28,5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14,17,20,26).

Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good.

I think the question is maybe stated better: Can one be saved just by believing in Jesus and are they assured of that salvation no matter what or do they need to be doers of the Word and can that salvation be lost. Is salvation being saved, being renewed and transformed in his image

Much better question and that is why i love ya lol

 

[SteveVH]

Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9)

When did Paul say salvation is by faith alone? He never uttered those words.

" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Ephesians 2:8-10)

And Paul was stating that works, by themselves, are of no avail. Neither is faith, by itself.

 

[aidanbradypop]

When did Paul say salvation is by faith alone? He never uttered those words.

" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Steve this is one we shall never agree on so best we move on friend.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve this is one we shall never agree on so best we move on friend.

Sorry, you stated that Paul said we are saved by “faith alone” and gave the scripture verse to back it up, when, in fact, he did not.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Sorry, you stated that Paul said we are saved by “faith alone” and gave the scripture verse to back it up, when, in fact, he did not.

I believe he did state by faith alone in the sense that is by our faith in Christ by the grace of God we are saved.

 

[Per_Crucem]

I’m kind of confused at what you are trying to get at. When we accept the gift of salvation, we are justified by our faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Christ then dwells in us by the Holy Spirit as promised. We are then called to be like Christ. A impossible task to achieve due to our sinful nature, yet we are still called to do so. Does that answer what you were asking or am I still completely off lol

I think the disconnect is that you are (perhaps) approaching justification as a one time act (or numerous individual acts), whereby God declares the person forgiven on the basis of faith. Justification, however, in Scripture justification is a lifelong process whereby the Christian is conformed to the image of the Son.

blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2015/01/22/orthodox-christians-believe-justification-response-protestant-criticisms/

 

[ignatius777]

Ok I hope this is posted in the correct area…

IS there are Christian Denomination that teaches and believes that both FAITH AND WORKS are needed?

James 2:14-26 faith without works is dead.
Ephesians 2:8-10 faith and grace alone.
James 2:24 righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Would they not go hand n hand? (faith grace and works)
Should not faith and works sow each other naturally?

I ask this because I know the big argument with Protestant vs. Catholism is that one is by faith and grace alone and the other is by works… but I do not believe things are black and white and there is gray area…
I was curious if there is a denomination that does teach and believe both and who… and/or if there are denominations that does teach both but are falsely accused of just one or the other.

I think the problem is our protestant brethren see it as either/or when in fact its a both/and issue. Catholics don’t believe they are saved by works but by both faith and works active through love.

 

[spiderweb]

I think the disconnect is that you are (perhaps) approaching justification as a one time act (or numerous individual acts), whereby God declares the person forgiven on the basis of faith. Justification, however, in Scripture justification is a lifelong process whereby the Christian is conformed to the image of the Son.

I think that’s right. We often use the same words and yet understand them to mean different things. I think the Catholic position is that Justification is through Jesus death. Our Faith in Jesus Justifies us. However it is a lifelong process by cooperating with the Holy Spirit through Works which God has set before us. Our Faith has to be lived.

works without faith = dead works
faith without works = dead faith

One cannot work their way into heaven, but one cannot also “faith” their way into heaven. Judgement will be according to works not faith. Works without faith will be burned as hay, stubble, and straw.

I have to get to work now, enjoyed it all.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I think that’s right. We often use the same words and yet understand them to mean different things. I think the Catholic position is that Justification is through Jesus death. Our Faith in Jesus Justifies us. However our Sanctification is a lifelong process by cooperating with the Holy Spirit through Works which God has set before us.

works without faith = dead works
faith without works = dead faith

One cannot work their way into heaven, but one cannot also “faith” their way into heaven. Judgement will be according to works not faith. Works without faith will be burned as hay, stubble, and straw.

I have to get to work now, enjoyed it all.

Justification is by faith in Jesus. We have been restored to divine fellowship. We have been justified by the blood of Christ: the payment for our sins has been paid. We are made or declared righteous.

Santification is a process that is completed after we die.Sanctification is realized in the believer by recognizing his identification with Christ in His death and resurrection, and by the faith reckoning daily upon the fact of that union, and by offering every faculty continually to the dominion of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Justification is by faith in Jesus. We have been restored to divine fellowship. We have been justified by the blood of Christ: the payment for our sins has been paid. We are made or declared righteous.

Correct. The question then becomes how A (the blood of Jesus, the payment for our sins, and His righteous) gets to B (us). The Scriptures, and the testimony of the saints, martyrs through the indwelling of the Spirit in the Church have taught us that it comes to us by our sacramental life in the Church, our baptism, our union with His body and blood in the Eucharist, our repentance in confession, the liturgy, the hymns, and the obedience to His new covenant commands. This is justification… it is most certainly not by faith alone, though faith is necessary.