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lanman87
Guest
Isn’t that up to the people involved.You are misled that oral or manual gratification is a loving act.
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1ke
Guest
God’s law communicated through divine revelation, which is composed of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.What is this object moral law and who decided what it is?
The Magisterium has a threefold role: to teach, to sanctify, and to govern. It is the teaching authority of the Bishops in union when the Pope, and the Pope ex cathedra, that is preserved with the charism of infallibility and ensures us of the sure norm of faith.
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1ke
Guest
No. It isn’t.Isn’t that up to the people involved.
Original sin left our intellect darkened and our will weakened.
What is good and what is evil is not ours to determine— that is quite literally the original sin.
God alone is the author of the moral law. It is objective, and it is knowable through divine revelation and the teaching office of the Church.
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Jen7
Guest
This.These innuendos are giving me a headache. My understanding is that Spouses can “serve” each other till the sun comes up, before male completion, in terms of foreplay. I’m assuming that’s what we are alluding to here. However, before a man crosses the finish line, it must be within the marital embrace as God designed, open to the possibility of procreation. Nothing is held back, two become one flesh, one body gifted to another in totality.
The Church’s “rules” aren’t complicated. Just unpopular:
No orgasms without PIV; no PIV while under the influence of pregnancy-blockers.
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CaptainPrudeman
Guest
Ah yes, because the Church which teaches universal moral truth can’t teach universal moral truth about the genitals.The Church hierarchy should get out of the bedroom and start addressing the REAL world and human problems.
I’ve seen Catholic writers on both ends of the spectrum here, mostly because completion for women is near impossible without manual or oral stimulation and many say that it is permissible to use such methods so long as the act itself ends in that certain way.
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RolandThompsonGunner
Guest
No male orgasms.No orgasms without PIV;
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F_Marturana
Guest
On purpose. …
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lanman87
Guest
So it is wrong because the church says it is wrong?The Magisterium has a threefold role: to teach, to sanctify, and to govern. It is the teaching authority of the Bishops in union when the Pope, and the Pope ex cathedra, that is preserved with the charism of infallibility and ensures us of the sure norm of faith.
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1ke
Guest
It’s wrong because God says it’s wrong.So it is wrong because the church says it is wrong?
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lanman87
Guest
I would submit they are unpopular because they limit the ways married couples can express love, devotion, joy, comfort, desire, and support for each other in the bedroom. They elevate procreation over the God given desire and ability to enjoy each other physically in the marriage relationship.The Church’s “rules” aren’t complicated. Just unpopular:
No orgasms without PIV; no PIV while under the influence of pregnancy-blockers.
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lanman87
Guest
And where does God say this?It’s wrong because God says it’s wrong.
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Genesis315
Guest
The real question is where did modern evangelicals get their notions? No Christians had such a liberal idea of sex as most US evangelicals do now until the sexual revolution. It started before that in the 1920s when the Anglican Lambeth conference approved contraceptive sex in limited circumstances–sexual acts or extraneous actions or devices that deliberately frustrated its natural end. This of course opened the door to other disordered sexual acts which are completely divorced from their natural end (between either members of the opposite sex or same sex).
True sexual morality is rooted in human nature and the natural law. Onanism is rejected explicitly in the Bible, as well as generally acts against human nature. Again, all Christians from the beginning opposed such things, including drugs that produced sterility.
And if that wasn’t enough, the fruits of these changes are rotten–and many evangelicals oppose the rotten societal fruits like abortion, promiscuity, and so much gender and sexual confusion without acknowledging the rotten root which they too often embrace. Some are coming around though (WaPo’s article frames this as bad, sexist, and racist of course).
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...393e50-73cf-11e3-bc6b-712d770c3715_story.html
As others have mentioned, there’s nothing wrong with pleasure, it simply can’t be divorced from the totality of the ends God has given human sexuality. That’s lust by definition.
True sexual morality is rooted in human nature and the natural law. Onanism is rejected explicitly in the Bible, as well as generally acts against human nature. Again, all Christians from the beginning opposed such things, including drugs that produced sterility.
And if that wasn’t enough, the fruits of these changes are rotten–and many evangelicals oppose the rotten societal fruits like abortion, promiscuity, and so much gender and sexual confusion without acknowledging the rotten root which they too often embrace. Some are coming around though (WaPo’s article frames this as bad, sexist, and racist of course).
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...393e50-73cf-11e3-bc6b-712d770c3715_story.html
As others have mentioned, there’s nothing wrong with pleasure, it simply can’t be divorced from the totality of the ends God has given human sexuality. That’s lust by definition.
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1ke
Guest
As already covered-- sixth commandment, Divine Revelation, authentically taught through the Magisterium of the Church.And where does God say this?
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lanman87
Guest
The sixth commandment is to honor your father and mother. I’m not sure what that has to do with the marriage bed.
Who was the divine revelation given to and how do you know it was divine.
Who was the divine revelation given to and how do you know it was divine.
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1ke
Guest
that’s the 4th commandment.The sixth commandment is to honor your father and mother.
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1ke
Guest
Divine Revelation is Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.Who was the divine revelation given to and how do you know it was divine.
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lanman87
Guest
Really, my guess is that Christians were doing what comes naturally from the time there were Christians. We don’t have any “studies” because people didn’t talk about such things until the mid-20th Century.The real question is where did evangelicals get their notions? No Christians had such a liberal idea of sex as most evangelicals do now until the sexual revolution.
However, traditional church teaching (both Catholic and Protestant) has always had a negative view of sex, even sex in the marriage bed. In the 20th Century, as people started to study marriages and relationships in an academic way it became clear how much a healthy sex life means to marriage and that sex is much more than a physical act. It contributes to the spiritual and emotional connection between a husband and wife.
Another contributing factor is that as couples started being more open with their Pastor about their marital problems it became clear that sex was a big issue in marriage. The negative view of sex that had been implicitly (and sometime openly) given by the church was harming marriages. This led to many pastor encouraging a healthy sex life for married couples in their congregation. Which led to questions like “Does the Bible say I can’t do X”? If the pastor was honest, he would say, “No, the Bible doesn’t say you can’t do X” but the principles in Scripture are to be loving, generous, and kind while not going against your conscience.
The realization from all of this was that sex isn’t just for having kids, it is a God given gift to a married couple and should be treated as such. It is something to be enjoyed and to be thankful for, not something that is to feel guilty about or deny to each other. And that God has given us freedom in how to enjoy each other.
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lanman87
Guest
Your right, I had them out of order.that’s the 4th commandment.
Anyway, Evangelicals affirm that it is a sin to commit adultery. What we are talking about isn’t adultery and it isn’t lust.
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lanman87
Guest
And because the Catholic church defines what Scripture means and what Sacred Traditions means, it goes back to “Because we say so”.Divine Revelation is Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
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