Christian & Missionary Alliance

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I was raised CMA. My family went to one for 14 years.

I think there’s a lot of misinformation in the first few posts. I was pretty involved with CMA–they have a hierarchical structure somewhat like the Catholic one, actually, but more of a corporate model, with districts, and national oversight. I’ve been to district and national youth conferences, and knew people who went to one of the CMA colleges. Sure, there are crazy people, and CMA tends to be pretty conservative, but they’re no more crazy on the whole than any other evangelical group. The one I was raised in had homeschoolers (including me), but we weren’t locked up or anything :rolleyes:. In fact, I think we were a lot less nuts than most of the Baptists in that town. 😛

Seriously, it’s not hard to find out about the CMA. Read the website. It’s all laid out.

If what you really wanted was to bash them, then . . . I’ll leave you to it, I guess.
 
Why should she (or I) do that? Don’t you think that’s a bit selfish?
Your comments were NOT “in Christ”. You have problems. All people in all faiths have much to be defended and rightfully so. I did not mean to completely shut Cat off in that way. But the way I took was she wrote seemed a bit over the top. Even though I may come across not happy with that group, I have reason to believe they conducted themselves similar to a church that I was part of and how I got involved in them so quickly. The nuances involve are far too complex for me to express to those that want to defend every little thing that comes across. I know my grandma was a very religious woman. But I see lots of hypocrisy in my family. The stories I could tell, that I don’t, are many. It’s very sad. Seeing how harsh they were may be the reason my mother turned out to be the way she was and may be her ticket to salvation. It may have reduced her from being culpable. That is mainly what I need for hope. Believing my mom may have been condemned to hell for some of the things she did to me and my brothers, not to mention others, is a painful experience that I hope no one has to go through. Only God knows her fate. But sleeping at night would be nice. Praying for her all the time is important. Sometimes I feel like praying for her is pointless and I’m looking for similarities to a cult that I’m more familiar with. The rest is my business. Didn’t mean to touch a nerve in you Cat or whoever else.
 
I was raised CMA. My family went to one for 14 years.

I think there’s a lot of misinformation in the first few posts. I was pretty involved with CMA–they have a hierarchical structure somewhat like the Catholic one, actually, but more of a corporate model, with districts, and national oversight. I’ve been to district and national youth conferences, and knew people who went to one of the CMA colleges. Sure, there are crazy people, and CMA tends to be pretty conservative, but they’re no more crazy on the whole than any other evangelical group. The one I was raised in had homeschoolers (including me), but we weren’t locked up or anything :rolleyes:. In fact, I think we were a lot less nuts than most of the Baptists in that town. 😛

Seriously, it’s not hard to find out about the CMA. Read the website. It’s all laid out.

If what you really wanted was to bash them, then . . . I’ll leave you to it, I guess.
I was told by family members that they were non-denominational and my family started it. Then a couple of days ago the youngest of my mom’s siblings, #10, told me that it was this group. So I thought getting a diverse response from a pool of people would be interesting and maybe explain some of my perceptions about them. They may be some sort of mixed faith group made up. My aunt explained it even strange.

I appreciate the responses and have a feel for it now. If I stepped on your toes, you were carrying your feelings on your shoulders, kind of like I was. So save the sanctimonious speech for someone who really is concerned. Anyone ever been in the Army when the drill says…better not would get into trouble. I’m saying I really don’t care. Crazy people can’t care what others say for their own sanity. That’s how I stay sane.😉
 
Your comments were NOT “in Christ”.
Perhaps you could point out what it was that I said that is wrong. I put the accusation of selfishness as a question precisely because I can’t read your heart, but the statement as you worded it does appear selfish to me.
You have problems.
Tell me something I don’t know!

And when and if I ever ask to be “given” a thread to trash another Christian church for the sake of my own “closure” issues, please be at least as hard on me as I was on you.
All people in all faiths have much to be defended and rightfully so.
That’s not what you said earlier.
I did not mean to completely shut Cat off in that way.
We often say things online that we don’t entirely mean. But certainly what you said was that you didn’t want to hear any defense of the CMA on this thread.
But the way I took was she wrote seemed a bit over the top.
How?
Even though I may come across not happy with that group, I have reason to believe they conducted themselves similar to a church that I was part of and how I got involved in them so quickly.
I don’t quite follow this.
The nuances involve are far too complex for me to express to those that want to defend every little thing that comes across.
Earlier you said that other churches should be defended. Now you imply this is bad. Which is it?
I Seeing how harsh they were may be the reason my mother turned out to be the way she was and may be her ticket to salvation. It may have reduced her from being culpable. That is mainly what I need for hope. Believing my mom may have been condemned to hell for some of the things she did to me and my brothers, not to mention others, is a painful experience that I hope no one has to go through. Only God knows her fate. But sleeping at night would be nice. Praying for her all the time is important. Sometimes I feel like praying for her is pointless and I’m looking for similarities to a cult that I’m more familiar with. The rest is my business. Didn’t mean to touch a nerve in you Cat or whoever else.
I understand where you are coming from. But you can believe that your mother suffered from religious abuse (which happens in all churches) without making a blanket condemnation of the CMA.

Also, as I understand Catholic theology, you can always hope that people were not entirely culpable or that they repented at the last minute. You don’t need to be able to specify what it is that reduced their culpability. Isn’t that really known only to God?

I have similar feelings about my grandmother. I know that many of her patterns of behavior were learned in the church in which she grew up (and particularly from the leader who took over after the founder, my great-great-uncle, died–though Uncle Ed isn’t free from blame either). And I believe that this reduces her culpability for much of the religious abuse that she perpetrated on my parents and me and a number of others. But I’m not going to deny that there was a lot of good in this church as well.

Edwin
 
So let me get this straight—the key word is “no?” 😛 That would be a great Nazarene CAF screen name: Dr. No
I think many of the Holiness groups over the last century had similar prohibitions…“avoid any ungodliness”. I lived in Huntsville AL about 25 years ago…there were some “Holiness” ladies that worked for me…kind, gentle, never a bad word about anyone from their mouths. They all dressed in the “Holiness style”…hair up in buns and dresses below their knees…they never wore pants and a MINIMUM if any of makeup. We got along very well.

One of the ladies asked for a copy of “Testament of Devotion” and read it several times…she didn’t know much about Quakers…and she was glad to finally get to meet one. There weren’t any Meetings in Huntsville some twenty to thirty years ago.

When I attended VBS as a kid at the CM&A…it’s one of the most endearing childhood memories…my very first girl friend was the pastor’s daughter. I was 13, she was 12…all we did was hold hands during “Skate Night” when they called for “couples”…but I was smitten hard…we moved away some months later to the other side of the Santa Clara Valley…I remember the CM&A fondly…they were good people.
 
I think many of the Holiness groups over the last century had similar prohibitions…“avoid any ungodliness”. I lived in Huntsville AL about 25 years ago…there were some “Holiness” ladies that worked for me…kind, gentle, never a bad word about anyone from their mouths. They all dressed in the “Holiness style”…hair up in buns and dresses below their knees…they never wore pants and a MINIMUM if any of makeup. We got along very well.

One of the ladies asked for a copy of “Testament of Devotion” and read it several times…she didn’t know much about Quakers…and she was glad to finally get to meet one. There weren’t any Meetings in Huntsville some twenty to thirty years ago.
There are a lot of links between Quakers and the Holiness movement. The particular group that my family comes from, in particular, was very inspired by the early Quakers. My grandmother loved George Fox and was a great admirer of Kelly’s Testament of Devotion.

Edwin
 
My mother was raised CMA but migrated into regular Methodist before I was born. My personal theology is at odds with CMA but I have nothing but good things to say about CMA or for that matter The Salvation Army. The CMA upbringing my mom had translated into her being totally commited to raising her kids right. I miss my mom just as much as anyone as she went home to the Lord in 1989.

There are crazy people in every religious group.

Jon
 
I can relate to loving VBS as a child. That’s one reason we loved helping out during VBS. I’d like to get our children involved in a local parish VBS held at a parish nearby. I apologize if I’ve come across sound like I have multiple personalities on this and any other subject. I have been wounded deeply and have mixed feelings about several different things. I find it bazaar that anyone would expect anyone to say everything exactly right all the time. What an exhausting friend they must be…

I love my CMA family, but I’m just now learning what they believe. My only experience with them is through my family, moved to San Antonio before I was born. We didn’t attend the one she grew up deep in southern Louisiana. She never could find a church home she felt comfortable in and ended up just not going altogether.
 
I can relate to loving VBS as a child. That’s one reason we loved helping out during VBS. I’d like to get our children involved in a local parish VBS held at a parish nearby. I apologize if I’ve come across sound like I have multiple personalities on this and any other subject. I have been wounded deeply and have mixed feelings about several different things. I find it bazaar that anyone would expect anyone to say everything exactly right all the time. What an exhausting friend they must be…
You’re not really apologizing when you keep issuing these barbs against anyone who has tried to correct you.

It’s not about “saying everything exactly right.” It’s just about not trashing whole groups of fellow Christians because of your own personal issues. If you do that, then those of us who know differently are going to disagree with you.

No one is trying to condemn you.

I have very mixed feelings about a lot of things too. I hope that if I allow those feelings to make me unfair, people will correct me!

Edwin
 
I think I was the one saying that the CMA was, to my then-youthful perceptions, a more moderate group than FMC.
They certainly weren’t bad people; on the contrary. Every group has its problems (& problem people); the CMA is not an exception.🤷
I think many of the Holiness groups over the last century had similar prohibitions…“avoid any ungodliness”. I lived in Huntsville AL about 25 years ago…there were some “Holiness” ladies that worked for me…kind, gentle, never a bad word about anyone from their mouths. They all dressed in the “Holiness style”…hair up in buns and dresses below their knees…they never wore pants and a MINIMUM if any of makeup. We got along very well.
This…Contarini & I both have our religious roots in the Holiness movement. So we speak from our experience.
They were great people, but the rules were frequently bizarre to live with. (Not so long ago, someone on another part of CAF asked if it is possible to be married w/o a wedding ring, leading me to recall the days when FM weddings were conducted with no provision for a wedding ring. (Because rings=gold=“costly array”). My father snuck a ring on my mother’s finger while the pastor was praying the final prayer at their wedding. So did other couples. The Holiness people were like that back then (WW2).
We (FMC) thought CMA & COTN were “liberal” for allowing wedding rings & lipstick (mostly Tangee Natural).
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One of the ladies asked for a copy of “Testament of Devotion” and read it several times…she didn’t know much about Quakers…and she was glad to finally get to meet one. There weren’t any Meetings in Huntsville some twenty to thirty years ago.

When I attended VBS as a kid at the CM&A…it’s one of the most endearing childhood memories…my very first girl friend was the pastor’s daughter. I was 13, she was 12…all we did was hold hands during “Skate Night” when they called for “couples”…but I was smitten hard…we moved away some months later to the other side of the Santa Clara Valley…I remember the CM&A fondly…they were good people.
I think very well indeed of the Holiness folk I knew as a child. To the best of their abilities, they followed Christ with whole hearts. For that, if nothing else, they deserve love & respect.
But this part of the post makes me smile, because the skating by the CMAs (& COTN) was one of the things that the FMC disapproved of. (That and bowling).
I’m sure that they also thought the FMs were off on something…
Such is life. We grow up, we get older, we start to see in a different light.
But many of those dear folk (even the ones who drove me crazy) are today, I am sure, :thumbsup:saints in Heaven.
 
There are a lot of links between Quakers and the Holiness movement. The particular group that my family comes from, in particular, was very inspired by the early Quakers. My grandmother loved George Fox and was a great admirer of Kelly’s Testament of Devotion.

Edwin
“Testament of Devotion” is a small volume I read over and over…it’s wonderful.

Early Friends had an understanding of “Christian Perfection” a little different than Wesley’s “Entire Sanctification” as a separate definte 2nd work of grace subsequent to regeneration.

For Friends sanctification begins WITH justification and is not a “second work of grace”…but is an ongoing work of the Holy Spirit and believed that the “desire to sin” could eventually be purged by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit…not that temptation wouldn’t occur…but that we could avail ourselves to the deepness of the Holy Spirit to refuse to sin.
 
“Testament of Devotion” is a small volume I read over and over…it’s wonderful.

Early Friends had an understanding of “Christian Perfection” a little different than Wesley’s “Entire Sanctification” as a separate definte 2nd work of grace subsequent to regeneration.

For Friends sanctification begins WITH justification and is not a “second work of grace”…but is an ongoing work of the Holy Spirit and believed that the “desire to sin” could eventually be purged by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit…not that temptation wouldn’t occur…but that we could avail ourselves to the deepness of the Holy Spirit to refuse to sin.
Actually that’s pretty close to my understanding of Wesley (and my own theological view today). But you are right that the 19th-century Holiness movement insisted on a “second crisis experience.”

Edwin
 
I would not call the C&MA a “holiness” church, and I wouldn’t say that it has its roots in the Holiness movement.

A.B. Simpson, the founder of the C&MA, was a Presbyterian minister who wanted Christian churches to be more aggressive in recruiting and sending missionaries overseas to non-North American countries, to those who have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

He originally founded the C&MA as a non-denominational parachurch organization with the purpose of helping churches of many different denominations to get their foreign missionary program charged up and running.

But he was a dynamic preacher, teacher, and hymn-writer, and as often happens, his movement attracted such a following that it became a separate denomination.

So it would be more historically accurate to say that the C&MA has Calvinist roots, as the Presbyterians are a Calvinist denomination.

The C&MA, as its name suggests, is most notable for its amazing record of sending missionaries around the world, especially to unreached people groups. The C&MA has the highest number of missionaries per percentage of membership of ANY Protestant denomination, including big Protestant denominations like the Assemblies of God, the Southern Baptists, and the United Methodists.

In other words, small churches in the U.S., but many many missionaries are sent overseas by the C&MA.

The C&MA also takes excellent care of their missionaries, unlike some organizations that give their missionaries no money and expect them to raise their own financial and spiritual support. C&MA missionaries are paid by the churches in the U.S. and Canada, and their salaries are commensurate with what a person with a moderate standard of living would make in their mission field. E.g., someone living in Guinea, West Africa, would receive the salary that an average person receives, which isn’t very much, but it’s enough to live comfortably. Meanwhile, someone in Japan might be paid as much as $100,000 year or more, because that’s an average person will make over there! A C&MA missionary will never starve or live in hovel or have to accept clothes from a charity barrel.

One of the reasons why my husband and I loved the C&MA is that it actually had a purpose for existing other than to provide church programs for the American Christians. Our purpose was to fulfil the Great Commission, and to do this, many C&MA churches have budgets in which HALF of the incoming offerings is given to OVERSEAS MISSIONS. I’m putting that in all caps because it is unheard of in many other Protestant denominations, which might designate 2 % of their budget to foreign missions, or maybe 10% if the church is particularly wealthy. But most Protestant churches keep most of their offerings for themselves and use it for programs for people who already have so much opportunity to hear the Gospel and learn more about Jesus.

The C&MA also has a huge charitable relief organization, and 100% of the monies given to this organization go to actually feed, clothe, house, and provide medical care for the poorest of the poor. Their record again is outstanding–many times, C&MA relief people can get past the black marketers and the cartels and the terrorists and get the relief and aid to those who actually need it because the C&MA people LIVE overseas for decades, for their entire lives, and so they are accepted by the locals.

The C&MA has been in the news lately, at least among Christians, because of a horrific scandal in their mission boarding schools. (I’m not exactly sure why the secular media has not picked up this story–usually they are eager for Christian blood and have trashed the Catholic Church repeatedly.) For decades, the C&MA required their missionaries to put their children in boarding schools by the age of 6 and leave them there for months at a time so that the parents could do the work of the mission field. For many kids, this worked out fine, but for many more, it was a nightmare. For years, the C&MA tried to ignore the allegations of sexual, physical, and mental abuse that occurred in some of the boarding schools, but finally, the story broke wide open. (Perhaps the scandals in the Catholic Church made it possible for the people who had suffered abuse to get the C&MA to listen to them and help them.) Here is a link to that section of the C&MA website–Child Safety & Protection This is not something that the C&MA is hiding, so I don’t consider it gossip or slander to provide this link. The C&MA is committed to openly and honestly dealing with the issue.
 
I would not call the C&MA a “holiness” church, and I wouldn’t say that it has its roots in the Holiness movement.

A.B. Simpson, the founder of the C&MA, was a Presbyterian minister who wanted Christian churches to be more aggressive in recruiting and sending missionaries overseas to non-North American countries, to those who have never heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Simpson was not part of the strictly “Wesleyan” wing of the Holiness movement. But he was very much part of the broader penumbra of the movement, often broadly referred to as “Keswick.”

A. W. Tozer was certainly a holiness theologian, though admittedly he was a lot more explicitly Wesleyan than some other Alliance folks.

It seems to me that the Alliance today tends to downplay its holiness roots.

Gordon Melton lists the Alliance in the “Holiness” section of his Encyclopedia of American Religions, although admittedly Melton’s classification choices are sometimes questionable.

I wrote an article for Christian History and Biography on the subject of the “non-Wesleyan Holiness” movement. The editor at the time (who is an expert on the Holiness movement and now has a church history blog) gave it the title “After Phoebe, the Deluge.” Not the title I would have chosen, but anyway. . . I can’t find it online now and I think Christianity Today has it on the section of their website that you can only access if you are subscribed.

Edwin
 
They’re really not “Old Time Methodists,” though probably their greatest pastor/theologian, A. W. Tozer, could be described that way.
Another somewhat famous C&MA name nowadays is Ravi Zacharias. Who happens to be bloody brilliant.
 
Another somewhat famous C&MA name nowadays is Ravi Zacharias. Who happens to be bloody brilliant.
I didn’t realize he was CMA, but I’m not particularly surprised.

I am not as impressed with him as you, though he was certainly a lot more intelligent and interesting than the average radio preacher (I used to listen to him on the local Christian radio station).

Edwin
 
I would have never guessed that so many people know so much about a denomination that my family belongs to that I didn’t even know they belongs to… try saying that real fast… with braces.
 
I would have never guessed that so many people know so much about a denomination that my family belongs to that I didn’t even know they belongs to… try saying that real fast… with braces.
It sounds like you have been through the wringer with your family, and you have seen some very bad things come out of their association with the C&MA.

So here is one suggestion–make SURE that their church is really the C&MA and not a split-away non-denominational church that is using the C&MA name.

I’m sure you know that there are several “Catholic” churches in the U.S. that are not really Catholic churches and that are not in communion with Rome.

The same thing happens all the time in Protestant denominations. A few people get disgruntled, or believe that God is leading them in a different direction, so they break away from the denomination and start up another church. Sometimes they will use part of the name of their original church to communicate to others what their origin is.

From what you are describing about your family’s church, it really doesn’t sound like the C&MA. It sounds like a non-demoninational church with some teachings that are different than the C&MA.

The way to find out is to ask for a Statement of Faith–it should match the C&MA website that I referred you to.

Another way to find out is to call the headquarters of the C&MA (see the website), explain that you are having some troubles, and ask if the church your family attends is really a C&MA church that is under the authority of the C&MA. They’ll be happy to tell you.

Good luck to you.
 
Another somewhat famous C&MA name nowadays is Ravi Zacharias. Who happens to be bloody brilliant.
I didn’t realize that. Thank you.
Like Edwin, I’m not as impressed as you are, but what had impressed me, is that he seems to be able to speak to many Christians, regardless of their affiliation. (When you find a fairly liberal UMC and a fundamentalist Baptist agreeing on someone’s teaching, that is a** big** accomplishment, and I know such people personally).
 
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