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Christian psychotherapist found guilty of professional misconduct for reparative therapy
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Kaninchen
Guest
It’s this nonsense of the NHS paying for it that I find outrageous. Imagine the fuss if it had been a Muslim counsellor who’d recommended chanting the Qu’ran as a cure.Actually, as she worked for the NHS, she broke the rules.
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LemonAndLime
Guest
estesbob - The first one is a Catholic website blog post, not a study.
The second one is also a blog post.
Is this meant to be this evidence I’m asking for?
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I called it an 'article", which it is, and I said it’s footnoted, which it is. Essay-article. Mox nix.I had a look at post #20.
First of all it’s more than 10 years old, which means its instantly out of date. A lot happens in 10 years.
But even worse than that, some of its supporting evidence dates back to the 1960s! Techniques, our understanding of psychology/biology, have all changed a lot since then.
Also, a lot of the evidence is contraversial and from the 1970s when women were at work and men didn’t like it - a lot of it is putting blame on the mother.
My general comment - this article isn’t actually a study, it’s an essay which picks and choose its articles and has no criticial analysis, e.g. it picks only one viewpoint and does not criticise/discuss the research methods on an subjective basis and definately does not include any opposing evidence.
A lot, indeed, happens in 10 years, but that’s not a critique. It’s simply an assumption that anything 10 years old or more cannot possibly be true if someone else comes up with a contrary notion in the interim. Interesting in that way to realize that St.Augustine actually developed the fundamentals of the theory of DNA; was soundly rejected for it by more 'modern" biologists, then was proved right more recently.
It’s imaginable, though doubtful, that if you actually researched and read the studies upon which the article is based, you might actually find them persuasive, or at least a basis upon which a healthy skepticism about politically-based recent “orthodoxies” about homosexuality might be developed.
But regardless, what’s being ignored here, and what the OP’s article is really all about, is the rigidity with which politically-derived theories about homosexuality are held. And if one knows any psychiatrists or psychologists, one knows those rigid doctrines, enforced by sanctions of various sorts, are most definitely not held by all in the profession. And it must be admitted by anyone that some people have, in fact, changed from a homosexual identity and practice to heterosexual. That’s just a fact. The real questions are why and how. That being the case, as it very clearly is, one has to question the wisdom and legitimacy of a rigid, politically-based orthodoxy that acts to prevent clinical practices that might actually facilitate people making changes they might want very much to make.
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estesbob
Guest
There are numerous cases of homosexuals who have been able to overcome their homosexual tendencies and to live quality llives in a heterosexual relationship. you would deny people who question whether they can overcome these tendencies any help. The truth is there are no studies that show that homosexuality is genetic nor the any studies that show a cannot be overcome. What we have, however, is ancedotal evidence of people who have received help and have overcome their homosexuality. The radical homosexual lobby would deny these people help as it goes against their agenda that homosexual behavior is akin to ones race or gender -a proposition that is other nonsenseestesbob - The first one is a Catholic website blog post, not a study.
The second one is also a blog post.
Is this meant to be this evidence I’m asking for?
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Except, of course, that nowhere in the article does it say she appealed to religion in any way in her interview of the fraudulent journalist.It’s this nonsense of the NHS paying for it that I find outrageous. Imagine the fuss if it had been a Muslim counsellor who’d recommended chanting the Qu’ran as a cure.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
This is a complicated subject, apparently even for analysts. There are different schools of thought about it, but certainly there are political pressures to conform to the “immutable” theory of homosexuality. This might be at least a lead-in to eventually understanding what the woman was trying to do. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapyestesbob - The first one is a Catholic website blog post, not a study.
The second one is also a blog post.
Is this meant to be this evidence I’m asking for?
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Kaninchen
Guest
Actually, I was referring to the idea that this sort of ‘therapy’ has been paid for by the NHS.Except, of course, that nowhere in the article does it say she appealed to religion in any way in her interview of the fraudulent journalist.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
From the article, one might at least conclude that recently it has not.Actually, I was referring to the idea that this sort of ‘therapy’ has been paid for by the NHS.
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Kaninchen
Guest
Well, I certainly hope so.From the article, one might at least conclude that recently it has not.
meltzerboy
New member
Actually, they believe there is nothing to cure, because it is not officially considered a disorder in the first place. In fact, only ego-dystonic homosexuality is regarded as a disorder, and this means if the gay person is uncomfortable with their sexual orientation, they might be treated to make them feel more comfortable. However, if one is going to a therapist who does believe it is a disorder and that it can be cured (there is actually such a minority view), and furthermore the client wishes to be “converted” to heterosexual, then I don’t necessarily see what the therapist is doing wrong. Of course, the therapist in this situation might be advised to explain to the client what the majority perspective is regarding homosexuality and how her viewpoint differs (as well as what her particular expertise is in this area), and then it would depend on the client whether they wish to begin treatment. In other words, the therapist should be up front with the client regarding their professional opinion. The fact that this professional opinion may be influenced by their own moral and religious views on the subject is another issue.ALL official psychologicial associations in the USA and UK believe that SSA is not curable, and that any attempt to do so leads to disaster. This is based on evidence on studies of people who tried “cure” therapy.
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EmperorNapoleon
Guest
There are a very small number of cases, all anecdotal, of this occurring.There are numerous cases of homosexuals who have been able to overcome their homosexual tendencies and to live quality llives in a heterosexual relationship.
The key word is “anectodal.” Theres no proof that any change in sexual orientation has ever occurred as a result of “conversion therapy.” What we do have evidence of is that this “therapy” is an abysmal failure more than 99% of the time and that the vast majority of those who participate in such “therapy” wind up leaving more distraught than when they entered into it.What we have, however, is ancedotal evidence of people who have received help and have overcome their homosexuality.
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Robertanthony
Guest
More than 99% of the time? Would you care to disclose the actual figure? Does the “99%” originate from a credible source or you just throw that figure to make your point?There are a very small number of cases, all anecdotal, of this occurring.
The key word is “anectodal.” Theres no proof that any change in sexual orientation has ever occurred as a result of “conversion therapy.” What we do have evidence of is that this “therapy” is an abysmall **failure more than 99% of the time **and that the vast majority of those who participate in such “therapy” wind up leaving more distraught than when they entered into it.
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EmperorNapoleon
Guest
Between 99.96%-99.5%.More than 99% of the time? Would you care to disclose the actual figure?
Exodus International (1978) - Only 3 out of 800 subjects were considered successfully “converted” based on self-reporting and psychiatric evaluation. This represents a “conversion” rate of approximately 0.04%.Does the “99%” originate from a credible source or you just throw that figure to make your point?
Schroeder & Shidlo - Only 1 out of 202 subjects were considered successfully “converted” based on self-reporting. This represents a “conversion” rate of approximately 0.5%
etc…
It warrants further study even though the “successful conversion” results are microscopic. Unfortunately, the only studies which exist on this subject rely entirely on self-reporting. Their results make for a good hypothesis but they don’t provide proof that “conversion therapy” actually succeeds in turning homosexuals into heterosexuals. What we need is FMRI testing of the alleged “ex-gays” to determine whether or not their sexual orientation has actually changed or they’ve simply changed their behavior.
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LemonAndLime
Guest
You’re wrong.Actually, they believe there is nothing to cure, because it is not officially considered a disorder in the first place. In fact, only ego-dystonic homosexuality is regarded as a disorder, and this means if the gay person is uncomfortable with their sexual orientation, they might be treated to make them feel more comfortable. However, if one is going to a therapist who does believe it is a disorder and that it can be cured (there is actually such a minority view), and furthermore the client wishes to be “converted” to heterosexual, then I don’t necessarily see what the therapist is doing wrong. Of course, the therapist in this situation might be advised to explain to the client what the majority perspective is regarding homosexuality and how her viewpoint differs (as well as what her particular expertise is in this area), and then it would depend on the client whether they wish to begin treatment. In other words, the therapist should be up front with the client regarding their professional opinion. The fact that this professional opinion may be influenced by their own moral and religious views on the subject is another issue.
They did try to cure it, not now but then. Several decades ago.
Now, such attempts would be considered immoral, because of what we learned back then.
meltzerboy
New member
I was talking about now. You’re right: back in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s, aversion therapy was used to “cure” male homosexuals. They would be presented with male porno images or films to stimulate an erection and, at the same time, be given an injection of a chemical to induce nausea and vomiting. This treatment was based on Pavlovian principles of associative learning. The results were that male gays lost their homosexual attraction, but did NOT change to a heterosexual attraction. They become asexual. This type of treatment was eventually abandoned.You’re wrong.
They did try to cure it, not now but then. Several decades ago.
Now, such attempts would be considered immoral, because of what we learned back then.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Immoral to attempt to cure homosexuality at all? The Church doesn’t teach that. Possibly a secular society thinks that, but then, secular societies’ view of what’s moral or immoral is either a matter of consensus or passivity in the face of the judgments of opinion makers.You’re wrong.
They did try to cure it, not now but then. Several decades ago.
Now, such attempts would be considered immoral, because of what we learned back then.
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LemonAndLime
Guest
The Church does not teach anything that relates to science, and doesn’t claim to.Immoral to attempt to cure homosexuality at all? The Church doesn’t teach that. Possibly a secular society thinks that, but then, secular societies’ view of what’s moral or immoral is either a matter of consensus or passivity in the face of the judgments of opinion makers.
Are you suggesting that secular people do not have morals? I didn’t say the Church believes its immoral, how did you think that?
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Dale_M
Guest
She’s not in danger of losing her license because she never had one. In the UK, apparently anyone can declare themselves to be a psychotherapist. There is no government registry, no licensing board, and no specific qualifications required to be a private practice psychotherapist.Wow. What terrible things could she have said to him on those tapes that warranted losing her license?
However, if someone wants to be employed in public practice, or be reimbursed by the NHS, I believe that person needs to meet the approval of one of two professional associations. The association to which she belongs has reprimanded her and laid out what she needs to do to regain her former status. How Ms. Pilkington responds to the reprimand is up to her.
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Nec5
Guest
Oh, they have morals, but they’re based on nothing substantive.Are you suggesting that secular people do not have morals?
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