Christian Truths are Christian Truths! Most Christians are Catholic and they don’t realize it.

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Jimmy_B

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**Christian Truths are Christian Truths! Most Christians are Catholic and they don’t realize it. **

What I mean is, that we share many of the same beliefs, the only difference is, .in many cases it comes down to the wording. Much of non-Catholic Christianity is an exercise in semantics and word games, anti-Catholic word games. Word games in which, non-Catholic Christians are involved in “Catholic behavior”; they just won’t use the “Catholic words” to describe that behavior. Additionally, many non-Catholic Christians share “Catholic beliefs”; they just won’t use the “Catholic words” to describe those “Catholic beliefs”.

This (in many cases), is caused by an anti-Catholic element, built into many non-Catholic Christian denominations, where Christians are conditioned to resist or avoid anything “Catholic”. This creates a problem for many, in “connecting the dots”. One cannot “connect the (Christian) dots” if one leaves out all of the “Catholic dots”. All of this creates division and confusion…

I have many examples of this and I will post them on separate posts and if you disagree, please let me know. Keep in mind that there are literally thousands of different non-Catholic Christian denominations, so my comments in most cases will apply to “some” Christian denominations and not to “all” Christian denominations.

If what I post here catches your attention or applies to your beliefs or denomination, then please provide a response from your point of view or particular Christian perspective. Also, please post the post number that you are addressing so that we can all follow your argument.
 
I will start with something easy – Sacramental’s.

Many non-Catholic Christians have a problem with “Catholic” statues, especially, statues of Mary, yet every year around Christmas, non-Catholic Christians will “put-up” Nativity Scenes, in their homes and elsewhere.

These Nativity Scenes have statues of Mary, the baby Jesus and Joseph. This behavior is “Catholic” and Catholics started it. What is the difference with having statues of the Holy family during the Christmas season and having them present all year round?

Catholics call items like these, sacramentals and all they are, are Christian reminders. They lead us to the Sacraments and to Jesus. They also represent an out-word expression of our Christian faith. Crucifix’s are sacramental’s. There isn’t anything wrong with sacramentals, they are not anti-Biblical and these Christian symbols, have been use by Christians since the very beginning of Christianity.
 
Catholic “Confession” -

Most Christians accept many of the Christian beliefs involved in the Catholic Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation “Confession”.

· For example, many non-Catholic Christians believe that God is omnipresent, (everywhere) except that is, in the “Catholic” Confessional.

· For example, many non-Catholic Christians believe that God hears our prayers and answers them, except that is, in the “Catholic” Confessional.

· For example, many non-Catholic Christians believe that it is necessary to ask God for forgiveness, except that is, in the “Catholic” Confessional.

· For example, many non-Catholic Christians believe that, where there are two or more in God’s name, He (God) is present, except that is, in the “Catholic” Confessional.

· For example, many non-Catholic Christians believe that, what a holy man ask for in prayer, in earnest, he shall receive, except that is, in the “Catholic” Confessional.

And the list goes on…

Biblical references supporting Catholic “Confession” –

Acts 5:1, James 5:16, 1 Peter 2:24, John 20:21-23, John 20:21-23, Luke 15:18, Job 42:6-10, Leviticus 5:5-6, Luke 15:21, Romans 3:23-25, John 14:6, Colossians 1:14, Matthew 9:2-8, Matthew 18:18, Mark 2:7, Mark 16:19-20, 2 Corinthians 2:10, Acts 19:18, 1 John 1:9-10 .
 
For example, many non-Catholic Christians believe that, where there are two or more in God’s name, He (God) is present, except that is, in the “Catholic” Confessional.
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A friend and I were reading those words of Jesus recently and I notice that the setting was Jesus speaking only to the Apostles. this started me wondering if maybe the protestants aren’t making an error in thinking that this refers to all Chrictians.

Could it be that Jesus was speaking about the Magisterium? Maybe he meant that when the bishops gather to consider a question that they would be lead by the Holy Spirit.
 
J_C said:
· For example, many non-Catholic Christians believe that, where there are two or more in God’s name, He (God) is present, except that is, in the “Catholic” Confessional.

A friend and I were reading those words of Jesus recently and I notice that the setting was Jesus speaking only to the Apostles. this started me wondering if maybe the protestants aren’t making an error in thinking that this refers to all Chrictians.

Could it be that Jesus was speaking about the Magisterium? Maybe he meant that when the bishops gather to consider a question that they would be lead by the Holy Spirit.
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He may be speaking to the apostles but he is not speaking strictly about the apostles. Those verses you are using are not isolated verses. They are the continuation of a talk He gives beginning with 18:1. The disciples asked a question but people were obviously there because He called a child to Him. He reiterates that people need to not lead children astray, but if they do this is how you are to deal with it (18:15-20). There were people all around when He was speaking, so He was not just speaking to the “magisterium”. It makes no sense for Him to tell that to just them and not expect us to follow suit. In verses 19 and 20 the word you can also be translated as they and them. He makes it clear that when we can agree together about restoration of a brother we are living in the spirit of forgiveness and fellowship. That is the very nature and mission of Chirst. That is why He says He will be there because it is in a spiritual sense He is referring to. Again, it makes no sense for us to have those words in the Bible and say that He was only speaking to a certain group of people so it only applies to them. He was not speaking to just them. He was making a point for everyone there.
 
Here are a few “Catholic things”:

The Date
The Bible
Cathedrals
Wax candles
Writing ink
The telescope
Discovery of first comet
Genetics
Mechanical clock
Priest dressing differently from laymen
Transubstantiation
Making the Sign of the Cross
The Crucifix
Easter
Christmas
The Christmas tree
Santa Clause
Candy canes
Christmas presents
Gingerbread
Saint Patrick’s Day
Modern beer
Whisky
Universities
Hospitals
Pharmacies
The name of many cities such as, Los Angeles, San Diego, San Antonio etc…etc
“Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance (USA). You can thank the Catholic Knights of Columbus for this one.
Private Schools in America. We almost lost this won this one in the Supreme Court (USA). You can thank the Catholic Knights of Columbus for this one as well.

And the list goes on…

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization
 
Jimmy_B said:
Here are a few “Catholic things”:

The Date
The Bible
Cathedrals
Wax candles
Writing ink
The telescope
Discovery of first comet
Genetics
Mechanical clock
Priest dressing differently from laymen
Transubstantiation
Making the Sign of the Cross
The Crucifix
Easter
Christmas
The Christmas tree
Santa Clause
Candy canes
Christmas presents
Gingerbread
Saint Patrick’s Day
Modern beer
Whisky
Universities
Hospitals
Pharmacies
The name of many cities such as, Los Angeles, San Diego, San Antonio etc…etc
“Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance (USA). You can thank the Catholic Knights of Columbus for this one.
Private Schools in America. We almost lost this won this one in the Supreme Court (USA). You can thank the Catholic Knights of Columbus for this one as well.

And the list goes on…

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization
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And many thanks to my Irish kin. After all, God did invent those things so the Irish wouldn’t rule the world. And hey, we can always say that if we can’t agree on any of the other things you wrote, we can always praise the Lord together for the gift of hops:thumbsup:
 
Here is a question for our “Bible Alone” friends. Why do you celebrate the Catholic holidays Christmas and Easter? They are not mentioned in the Bible. :rolleyes:
 
Jimmy,

I think you are onto something here. I might quibble with one or two examples but virtually all of them show that non-catholics exists in order to be anti-catholic. There is little or no substance in most that separates us. There are serious consequences to the non-Catholic but little if any substance. One consequence is of course that they never receive the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ. That makes me sad. But how does one break through their resistance? I’ve been trying for 8 years but with little success thus far.

CDL
 
Jimmy_B said:
Here is a question for our “Bible Alone” friends. Why do you celebrate the Catholic holidays Christmas and Easter? They are not mentioned in the Bible. :rolleyes:
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Jimmy I think you get confused by what “Bible Alone” or “scripture alone” actually means. It refers to the Bible as being the absolute inerrant, infallible Word of GOD. Therefore no doctrine should be created that contradicts the Word of GOD. Now Jesus certainly was born and there is nothing in the Bible that states we cannot celebrate HIS birth. The date of December 25th is certainly taken from the pagans as it is the celebration of the birth of the sun god. Given that we don’t know the exact date of Jesus’ birth one may question using a pagan date. This is why many Christians don’t celebrate Christmas. Not all do as you say.

With regard to Easter, the resurrection is plainly stated in the Bible and we know the timing better because it coincides with the Jewish passover. So celebrating the ressurection of our Savior is certainly rooted in scripture.

Also with regard to the word Catholic or “Kathlicos” as it was first used, purely means universal. Irenaeus said wherever Jesus is there is the Kathlicos church. Jesus says where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name I am there among you. So our church by those definitions is certainly Kathlicos. We may not be Roman Catholic but then again Irenaeus didn’t say Roman Kathlicos.

In reading your posts regarding confession, you state that Protestants believe GOD is everywhere (Omnipresent) except in the confessional. I’m not sure why you would say this as this contradicts Omnipresence. Protestants don’t necessarily agree with confession because GOD IS Omnipresent. We don’t have to go to a confessional for GOD to hear us confess our sins. Not that HE can’t hear us there but he surely can hear us anywhere. GOD is the only person who can forgive our sins. We can forgive each other but no one can forgive sin itself but GOD.

PEACE
 
GregoryPalamas said:
Jimmy,

I think you are onto something here. I might quibble with one or two examples but virtually all of them show that non-catholics exists in order to be anti-catholic. There is little or no substance in most that separates us. There are serious consequences to the non-Catholic but little if any substance. One consequence is of course that they never receive the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ. That makes me sad. But how does one break through their resistance? I’ve been trying for 8 years but with little success thus far.

CDL
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Gregory I disagree that we don’t receive the Eucharist. This statement is very annoying and is constantly repeated in these forums. As if only the Roman Catholic church can give a valid Eucharist. I partake in the Lord’s supper every week and have no doubts about receiving Jesus. John Chrystostom wrote that the presence of Jesus in the bread and wine had nothing to do with what the Priests did. That it was a complete act of Jesus. To say Jesus is not present in the bread and wine I consume is speaking for Jesus. I don’t think you are qualified to do that my brother.

PEACE
 
As a Protestant I have no difficulty in accepting that much that we have in Protestant Christianity comes from the Catholic Church. After all the Catholic Church is a Christian Church and Christian truths as you say, Christian truths are Christian truths. At the time of the Reformation, Protestants recognized that the Catholic Church still had Christian truths. However they did not accept that all Catholic truths were Christian truths. Since the Catholic Church demands that all its truths be acepted, Protestants cannot be Catholic since, as much as we may share most beliefs, we do not accept everything that that Catholic Church teaches as right or required for belief.
 
“Improperly sold Indulgences”

Martin Luther, in his 95 Thesis, rambled on and on about the Catholic Church’s “improperly selling of Indulgences”. This was a local problem that, then Catholic Priest, Martin Luther had with a local Catholic Bishop.

Let me start by reminding people that the money for their minister’s salary and to build their church building did not magically appear. They asked for the money, they received it, and in many cases, their members believed that they were going to receive something in return…Like Heaven… or at least getting on the “good-side” of their preacher.

The Catholic Church corrected this local problem 500 years ago but whenever I turn the TV to a “Christian Channel”, what I usually see is some guy asking for money and promising something “abundantly” in return, like more money in their future, given to them by God. These are all great examples of “improperly sold Indulgences”; the only difference is that they do not use the Catholic word “Indulgence”.

Please tell me where I am wrong.
 
NDfan said:
Gregory I disagree that we don’t receive the Eucharist. This statement is very annoying and is constantly repeated in these forums. As if only the Roman Catholic church can give a valid Eucharist. I partake in the Lord’s supper every week and have no doubts about receiving Jesus. John Chrystostom wrote that the presence of Jesus in the bread and wine had nothing to do with what the Priests did. That it was a complete act of Jesus. To say Jesus is not present in the bread and wine I consume is speaking for Jesus. I don’t think you are qualified to do that my brother.

PEACE
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I agree with you completely. The Lord’s Supper is available each week at our Presbyterian Church for any who wish it. I have found no where in Scripture that a Catholic priest is the only one who can consecrate the elements. God can work through whoever He wishes. I know that when I receive it I can feel that Jesus is really present, despite what Catholics might think.
 
Jimmy_B said:
Catholic “Confession” -

Most Christians accept many of the Christian beliefs involved in the Catholic Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation “Confession”.

· For example, many non-Catholic Christians believe that God is omnipresent, (everywhere) except that is, in the “Catholic” Confessional.

· For example, many non-Catholic Christians believe that God hears our prayers and answers them, except that is, in the “Catholic” Confessional.

· For example, many non-Catholic Christians believe that it is necessary to ask God for forgiveness, except that is, in the “Catholic” Confessional.

· For example, many non-Catholic Christians believe that, where there are two or more in God’s name, He (God) is present, except that is, in the “Catholic” Confessional.

· For example, many non-Catholic Christians believe that, what a holy man ask for in prayer, in earnest, he shall receive, except that is, in the “Catholic” Confessional.

And the list goes on…

Biblical references supporting Catholic “Confession” –

Acts 5:1, James 5:16, 1 Peter 2:24, John 20:21-23, John 20:21-23, Luke 15:18, Job 42:6-10, Leviticus 5:5-6, Luke 15:21, Romans 3:23-25, John 14:6, Colossians 1:14, Matthew 9:2-8, Matthew 18:18, Mark 2:7, Mark 16:19-20, 2 Corinthians 2:10, Acts 19:18, 1 John 1:9-10 .
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Actually, I think most people would have no problem with the idea that God can forgive sins in a confessional. I think their problem would be with the idea that you have to go to a priest and tell him your sins and get him to forgive you instead of going directly to God.

I am not Catholic because I disagree on a couple things, and from what I have gathered, you must agree with everything (or be willing to accept it without understanding) in order to be Catholic. I am not in that position.

I also agree with NDfan and SyCarl about the Lord’s Supper.
 
Jimmy_B said:
“Improperly sold Indulgences”

Martin Luther, in his 95 Thesis, rambled on and on about the Catholic Church’s “improperly selling of Indulgences”. This was a local problem that, then Catholic Priest, Martin Luther had with a local Catholic Bishop.

Let me start by reminding people that the money for their minister’s salary and to build their church building did not magically appear. They asked for the money, they received it, and in many cases, their members believed that they were going to receive something in return…Like Heaven… or at least getting on the “good-side” of their preacher.

The Catholic Church corrected this local problem 500 years ago but whenever I turn the TV to a “Christian Channel”, what I usually see is some guy asking for money and promising something “abundantly” in return, like more money in their future, given to them by God. These are all great examples of “improperly sold Indulgences”; the only difference is that they do not use the Catholic word “Indulgence”.

Please tell me where I am wrong.
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Jimmy I don’t disagree with you brother. Just keep in mind that as much as you may dislike Martin Luther and John Calvin, the Roman Catholic church accepted almost all of Martin’s theses, and Augustine preached exactly what John Calvin did on efficacious grace.

With respect to people asking for money it is unbearable for me to watch as well. Many church leaders promise great riches if only you tithe. What happens is you get people who tithe but for the wrong reasons. The important part of the message that you should be a cheerful giver, and give from the heart expecting nothing in return is somehow lost.
 
Papal Supremacy****

Protestants and non-Catholic Christians reject “Papal Supremacy”; The Roman Catholic Pope as the leader of the Roman Catholic Church, yet all organized, non-Catholic religions have a leader or a handful of leaders and a hierarchy. They, in practice have and believe in their own version of “Papal Supremacy”, the only differences are, that they do not call there “Leader” the Pope or referred to the authority he has over a particular religion, denomination or congregation as “Papal Supremacy”. I am not aware of any Christian religion, which is a democracy.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
 
Infallibility

All non–Catholic Christian and Protestant denominations claim that they are infallible (or without error), when it comes to their beliefs on issues of faith and morals, They just don’t use the Catholic word “Infallible”.

Please explain why you think this isn’t accurate.
 
Jimmy_B said:
Papal Supremacy****

Protestants and non-Catholic Christians reject “Papal Supremacy”; The Roman Catholic Pope as the leader of the Roman Catholic Church, yet all organized, non-Catholic religions have a leader or a handful of leaders and a hierarchy. They, in practice have and believe in their own version of “Papal Supremacy”, the only differences are, that they do not call there “Leader” the Pope or referred to the authority he has over a particular religion, denomination or congregation as “Papal Supremacy”. I am not aware of any Christian religion, which is a democracy.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
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There are further differences such as the doctrine of papal infallibility and the method of selecting the Pope as compared to Protestant leaders. My church follows a concilliar form of leadership through various levels of church “courts” such as presbytery, synod and general assembly.
 
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