Christian Truths are Christian Truths! Most Christians are Catholic and they don’t realize it.

[Stephen_C]

Stephen just keep in mind that confessing with our lips that Jesus is our savior and Lord may be done out of obedience but does not necessarily mean it is from the heart.

We partake in the Lord’s Supper as an act of obedience to Faith. But someone who does it because they have to vs. someone who does it because they want to is a big difference. Obedience means nothing if it does not come from the heart. Your implication is that if we just do everything the church tells us we are saved. GOD sees what’s in the heart. Obedience to Faith because of obligation vs. true desire are quite different:thumbsup:

Also keep in mind that true obedience comes from the heart as well.

 

[NDfan]

Hi Sycarl

*When you posted – *

“Many Protestants do fast but it is generally a voluntary act. Where is there any value if you do it because someone says that you must do it at a certain time?”

(I underlined the words here).

*These all sound like an argument for “Good-Works” along with Faith and Grace. I thought you were turning Catholic right before my vary eyes…”do fast”…”act”….”value”…You were sounding pretty “Catholic” there for a second. That was a close call, I thought for a second, you were going to have to turn in your “Protestant” card. (Tongue-in-cheek) *

*Peace *

Jimmy may I ask you a question?? Fasting is very scriptural. I notice you say to Sycarl that fasting is associated with a good work. Can you show me in scripture where fasting was ever considered a good work? It wasn’t actually. Fasting was usually associated with prayer, mourning and a humbling of oneself before GOD. I have fasted and do fast now. I don’t consider it a Roman Catholic act. I consider it a scriptural act and expect nothing in return. The RCC didn’t invent fasting. At least this seems to be your implication. So why would you think any Protestant would have a problem with it or not do it because it’s a Roman Catholic “thing”?

 

[NDfan]

Also keep in mind that true obedience comes from the heart as well.

Not necessarily. I disagree with you here. Someone can obey for selfish reasons. I can tithe as a true act of obedience from the heart. But if I expect riches in return then it was for selfish reasons.

 

[rinnie]

Well Jim i have to disagree with you strongly on this one. First of all and the major biggie is the Sacraments. In order to be Catholic you must have all of the Sacraments. If most Christians were Catholic they would follow the Cathollic Church. And they would not question the authority of the Pope, and they would understand all of the Sacraments.

 

[NDfan]

Well Jim i have to disagree with you strongly on this one. First of all and the major biggie is the Sacraments. In order to be Catholic you must have all of the Sacraments. If most Christians were Catholic they would follow the Cathollic Church. And they would not question the authority of the Pope, and they would understand all of the Sacraments.

Rinnie I think you are missing Jimmy’s point. He’s saying that Non RCC Christians are closer to practicing the Faith according to the RCC than they think. WIth regard to the Pope he notes that Protestants submit to their church authorities so why not the Pope? Read all his posts to understand where he is coming from.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy,

I think that you are trying too hard to separate Catholic and non-Catholics. Why would any Christian not have Baptism – after all, our Lord himself commanded us to “go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…” Would you expect us to ignore his words just so that we are differentiated from Catholics thereby?

Do you think that the reformers decided to chuck out everything and start from scratch? If you haven’t done so, read the Augsburg Confession, written by the Lutherans, and see how they tried to affirm all that was good in the Church’s teaching while also speaking to the abuses that they perceived had crept into the Church. Read the Augsburg Confession together with the Confutatio Pontificia to see just where there were differences and where the Lutherans and Catholics agreed. You may be surprised to find that there was much agreement.

Now, I will admit, there were differences in theology and ecclesiology that kept the two sides from reconciling. But that does not mean that all that had been taught by the Church for 1500 years was rejected. Certainly, the reformers were not against doing good works, but were concerned with the popular belief that good works were somehow salvific, a belief that was not always clearly rejected in the daily life of the Church.

That’s enough of my writing for the moment. The Holy Week scheduled beckons me to other things. I will try to keep in touch during the breaks in my schedule.

May the blessings of the season be showered on you.

Hello Pastor Gary,

I am aware of what you posted here and I am also aware that the Lutheran Church is more “Catholic” than many other Christian denominations today. A Christian Truth, is a Christian Truth, is a Christian Truth. Christian Truth does not change. Truth does not divide people and Truth has not divided Catholics and “Protestants” or sub-divided the early “Protestant” denominations from the thousands, which exist today.

The Truth hasn’t caused division, rejecting the Truth and the constant and repetitive rejection of Christian Truths has caused all of the divisions that we see today. I think that we can both agree on this.

It all began with the first episodes (in the 1500’s), where there were some who rejected the Christian Truths found in the Roman Catholic Church. Reform within the Catholic Church was well under way before Martin Luther’s 95 Thesis. There is a huge difference between “abuses”, where members act outside the Church and Doctrine on the issues of Faith and Morals, which are not sound. Catholicism is and has always been a “sound” religion.

“Reform” and addressing problems within the Church is not unusual. I think Saint Paul’s letters can attest to this. There are times when the Church does need to define (not create) Catholic doctrine to be better understood in more modern times. Many of the so-called “Protestant Reformers”, “created” rather than “defined” Christian doctrine. They opened “Pandora’s Box”, when personal interpretation was allowed and encouraged. That has lead to many errors including the error, in the belief that there exists conflict in the Bible. There is no such conflict, when viewed and understood in context.

Thank you for your post.

I pray for true Christian Unity.

May the blessings of this season be showered on you too!

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie I think you are missing Jimmy’s point. He’s saying that Non RCC Christians are closer to practicing the Faith according to the RCC than they think. WIth regard to the Pope he notes that Protestants submit to their church authorities so why not the Pope? Read all his posts to understand where he is coming from.

Im sorry but i still disagree, post 12, 12, 15,. I even agree with the protestant on 13 I believe. I cant see it. How can a person be Catholic and not agree with all of the Sacraments 100%. Too Too much difference. I think if i am correct a Catholic and Protestant only agree on 2. One is Baptism i forget the other. I usually agree with alot of what Jimmy says but not on this one. You are either a Roman Catholic or you are not. LIke my Dad always said you are either Hot or Cold in the faith no in between.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Well Jim i have to disagree with you strongly on this one. First of all and the major biggie is the Sacraments. In order to be Catholic you must have all of the Sacraments. If most Christians were Catholic they would follow the Cathollic Church. And they would not question the authority of the Pope, and they would understand all of the Sacraments.

Hello rinnie,

I know that… I am "talking “about “Catholic” behavior here, not that they are literally Catholic. I am trying to demonstrate to “Protestants” that if they were to view their own beliefs, in context and using some common sense that they would learn that they actually agree with much more that is “Catholic” than they think they do. I also want to demonstrate that many of their arguments are semantically based and not Biblically or theologically based. We are much closer in our different beliefs than we are apart.

Please read my first few posts.

Peace

 

[kalt]

I will start with something easy – Sacramental’s.

Many non-Catholic Christians have a problem with “Catholic” statues, especially, statues of Mary, yet every year around Christmas, non-Catholic Christians will “put-up” Nativity Scenes, in their homes and elsewhere.

These Nativity Scenes have statues of Mary, the baby Jesus and Joseph. This behavior is “Catholic” and Catholics started it. What is the difference with having statues of the Holy family during the Christmas season and having them present all year round?

Catholics call items like these, sacramentals and all they are, are Christian reminders. They lead us to the Sacraments and to Jesus. They also represent an out-word expression of our Christian faith. Crucifix’s are sacramental’s. There isn’t anything wrong with sacramentals, they are not anti-Biblical and these Christian symbols, have been use by Christians since the very beginning of Christianity.

I’ve asked my Protestant friends about this very thing. They say that the Nativity scenes are different because they don’t “worship” the statues. When I ask them to explain what that means, they say that they don’t say prayers in front of the Nativity scene.

I disagree. It might not be a prayer they repeat, like the Our Father, and it might not be a prayer that they formulate on the spot. But it sure is meditative prayer when they look on the Nativity scene and consider what all of it means.

 

[Stephen_C]

Not necessarily. I disagree with you here. Someone can obey for selfish reasons. I can tithe as a true act of obedience from the heart. But if I expect riches in return then it was for selfish reasons.

Well, I obey because I believed Jesus when he told St. Peter (Simon) that what ever he binds on earth will be bound in Heaven. I believe therefore I obey.

 

[rinnie]

Hello rinnie,

I know that… I am "talking “about “Catholic” behavior here, not that they are literally Catholic. I am trying to demonstrate to “Protestants” that if they were to view their own beliefs, in context and using some common sense that they would learn that they actually agree with much more that is “Catholic” than they think they do. I also want to demonstrate that many of their arguments are semantically based and not Biblically or theologically based. We are much closer in our different beliefs than we are apart.

Please read my first few posts.

Peace

Okay Jim best of luck but sorry bud i cant see that happening. But i hope you can. I truely do.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I’ve asked my Protestant friends about this very thing. They say that the Nativity scenes are different because they don’t “worship” the statues. When I ask them to explain what that means, they say that they don’t say prayers in front of the Nativity scene.

I disagree. It might not be a prayer they repeat, like the Our Father, and it might not be a prayer that they formulate on the spot. But it sure is meditative prayer when they look on the Nativity scene and consider what all of it means.

Hi kalt,

Yeah…It don’t make a lot of sense does it. I’m sure your friend is aware of the fact that we Catholics do not worship statues…Sounds like circle-talk to me.

Peace

 

[Jimmy_B]

Okay Jim best of luck but sorry bud i cant see that happening. But i hope you can. I truely do.

Thank you Sir.

 

[HannahLisa]

If we are to show honour to God through fasting, it should be a voluntary act, not something we do because we are told to. There is nothing wrong with Catholics fasting but if it is done on a “I do it because I must” basis, it is being done for a wrong purpose.

The Catholics I am good friends with ALL wait for midnight so that they can eat meat as soon as Friday is over. It seems to me like they’re doing it because they’re supposed to, not for any other reason (though I could be wrong about this).

When you do something because you’re supposed to or because you have to, it has a completely different meaning from doing something because you want to. This is why we have to rely on faith – if everyone KNEW for sure that God existed because there was no way to doubt, then it wouldn’t mean the same thing as it does when we can truly CHOOSE God because it is possible to not see Him.

 

[kalt]

Hi kalt,

Yeah…It don’t make a lot of sense does it. I’m sure your friend is aware of the fact that we Catholics do not worship statues…Sounds like circle-talk to me.

Peace

Yep.

Actually, I think they believe that we do worship statues, because that’s what they’ve been taught. They can’t explain how we do, but we must–we’re Catholic after all.

 

[kalt]

The Catholics I am good friends with ALL wait for midnight so that they can eat meat as soon as Friday is over. It seems to me like they’re doing it because they’re supposed to, not for any other reason (though I could be wrong about this).

When you do something because you’re supposed to or because you have to, it has a completely different meaning from doing something because you want to. This is why we have to rely on faith – if everyone KNEW for sure that God existed because there was no way to doubt, then it wouldn’t mean the same thing as it does when we can truly CHOOSE God because it is possible to not see Him.

I don’t know anyone who stays up until midnight on Saturdays during Lent, just to have a chicken wing. And I live in the most Catholic state in the country.

 

[J_C]

The Catholics I am good friends with ALL wait for midnight so that they can eat meat as soon as Friday is over. It seems to me like they’re doing it because they’re supposed to, not for any other reason (though I could be wrong about this).

When you do something because you’re supposed to or because you have to, it has a completely different meaning from doing something because you want to. This is why we have to rely on faith – if everyone KNEW for sure that God existed because there was no way to doubt, then it wouldn’t mean the same thing as it does when we can truly CHOOSE God because it is possible to not see Him.

six of one, a half dozen of the other, I think…

while I am not aware of this type of behavior, going after the meat at midngight, I don’t doubt that it happens. personally I could never understand why giving up meat is a hardship. we love sushi, and so on meatless days we just eat a bunch of sushi, and it is the best meal of the week if you ask me.

 

[HannahLisa]

I don’t know anyone who stays up until midnight on Saturdays during Lent, just to have a chicken wing. And I live in the most Catholic state in the country.

These are college students. They’re up until midnight anyway. They also eat a lot of Taco Bell, especially when they’re getting food late at night, so yeah. I don’t think it’s a huge craving for meat, more a “I want this food and it has meat in it so I can’t eat it till after midnight.”

The whole thing seems legalistic to me. Then again, I’m not Catholic. I would definitely consider fasting on my own though.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy may I ask you a question?? Fasting is very scriptural. I notice you say to Sycarl that fasting is associated with a good work. Can you show me in scripture where fasting was ever considered a good work? It wasn’t actually. Fasting was usually associated with prayer, mourning and a humbling of oneself before GOD. I have fasted and do fast now. I don’t consider it a Roman Catholic act. I consider it a scriptural act and expect nothing in return. The RCC didn’t invent fasting. At least this seems to be your implication. So why would you think any Protestant would have a problem with it or not do it because it’s a Roman Catholic “thing”?

Hello NDfan,

“Good Works” is doing those things which are pleasing to God.

It is as simple as that. I think many non-Catholics try to hard to read too much into many aspects of Catholicism.

Peace

 

[kalt]

These are college students. They’re up until midnight anyway. They also eat a lot of Taco Bell, especially when they’re getting food late at night, so yeah. I don’t think it’s a huge craving for meat, more a “I want this food and it has meat in it so I can’t eat it till after midnight.”

The whole thing seems legalistic to me. Then again, I’m not Catholic. I would definitely consider fasting on my own though.

Legalisitc? I doubt it. I have a son who is in college–Those kids are most likely having a blast with it. It’s just a fun part of the whole Fridays-in-Lent thing. Not exactly the intended point, but they’re college kids. They can make a game out of a pie tin. Or is that just an urban legend.