Christian unity: Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox unity possible; unity with Protestants impossible

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Mannyfit75 said:
…I very much know about a lot of about Public Revelation revealed to us by Jesus Christ. As far as doctrines goes, I firmly believe that Protestant Leaders will have to give up the Two Pillars of Protestantism, Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.

Those doctrines are condemned by the Catholic Church as stated in the Council of Trent.
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Here is the flaw in the thinking. The Catholics believe in everything being intrusted in the leadership of their church. The leaders say it, they believe it. Protestants (those who take the Bible seriously) make their decisions about faith from the Bible. The Bible is their authority, not the Pope. So, if the “leaders” of many (no all) of the protestant groups make nice with Rome, it doesn’t follow that they will have much company.

Catholics and some mainline protestant denominations look for unification, for conservative/fundamental/evangelicals it is the furthest thing from their minds.
 
Jon_Hus said:
Here is the flaw in the thinking. The Catholics believe in everything being intrusted in the leadership of their church. The leaders say it, they believe it. Protestants (those who take the Bible seriously) make their decisions about faith from the Bible. The Bible is their authority, not the Pope. So, if the “leaders” of many (no all) of the protestant groups make nice with Rome, it doesn’t follow that they will have much company.

Catholics and some mainline protestant denominations look for unification, for conservative/fundamental/evangelicals it is the furthest thing from their minds.
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Hello,

I understand what you are saying, but no two Protestant groups can agree on decisions about faith, doctrine, praxis from the Bible. If they did, there would far, far less denominations, splits and sectarianism.

You wouldn’t be inspired if scores of Christians unified with one another?

In Christ,
Andrew
 
Jon_Hus said:
Here is the flaw in the thinking. The Catholics believe in everything being intrusted in the leadership of their church. The leaders say it, they believe it. Protestants (those who take the Bible seriously) make their decisions about faith from the Bible. The Bible is their authority, not the Pope. So, if the “leaders” of many (no all) of the protestant groups make nice with Rome, it doesn’t follow that they will have much company.

Catholics and some mainline protestant denominations look for unification, for conservative/fundamental/evangelicals it is the furthest thing from their minds.
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Is there an implication in the bolded that those of us who believe in ecumenism don’t take the Bible seriously? Surely not. 🙂

As far as not much company, we can only leave that to the Holy Spirit as well. But Christ called for us to be one, and the leader of the largest Christian body is the pope, so it is good to “make nice” with him, since make nice doesn’t mean submit.

The history of those who came to make up the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod being what it was, there more than a few in our ranks who share your view about unity being furthest thing from their minds. Their view is understandable, but I quite disagree.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
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As far as not much company, we can only leave that to the Holy Spirit as well. But Christ called for us to be one, and the leader of the largest Christian body is the pope, so it is good to “make nice” with him, since make nice doesn’t mean submit.

The history of those who came to make up the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod being what it was, there more than a few in our ranks who share your view about unity being furthest thing from their minds. Their view is understandable, but I quite disagree.

Jon
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Jon, The Holy Spirit isn’t going to call Catholics and Protestants together they way you invision it. Why would the Holy Spirtit do that? Unless of course you believe that the Holy Spirit wasn’t on the side of the reformers to begin with. What changes has the Roman Catholic church made that would satisfy the heirs of the reformers?
 
=Jon Hus;5384228]Jon, The Holy Spirit isn’t going to call Catholics and Protestants together they way you invision it. Why would the Holy Spirtit do that?
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It isn’t necessarily my vision, why not? Why the limits on what He can do?
Unless of course you believe that the Holy Spirit wasn’t on the side of the reformers to begin with.
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I don’t think it is has ever been a question of whose side the Holy Spirit is on. The question is are we on the side of the Holy Spirit. And I think there are Christians of all traditions that are on His side, even when truth is mixed with error. Now, how do we work together, with HIs guidance, to eliminate error?
What changes has the Roman Catholic church made that would satisfy the heirs of the reformers
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I thought the JDDJ was a good start. Be that as it may, ernest open dialogue does not need to come from “what have you done for me lately”. Even with no progress, we must always start anew, in obedience to Christ’s call for unity. I frankly don’t see how complacency in schism answers that call.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Hope you’re wrong, Manny. I hope the Holy Spirit can move us together. Through Him all things are possible.

Jon
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Really, though, would the Protestant denominations ever come to the same understanding of the Sacraments (number and meaning)? Would they ever reincorperate apostolic succession into their ordinations, for the sake of unity? I doubt it, sadly.
 
Concerning this wheel and spoke theory, those of you Eastern Christians who are advocating this return to the faith once received, would you be willing to admit that the Orthodox have things to give up in order to return to that Faith? Is it only Rome that needs to travel back in time and un-define things, repudiate things, etc.?
 
SonofMonica said:
Concerning this wheel and spoke theory, those of you Eastern Christians who are advocating this return to the faith once received, would you be willing to admit that the Orthodox have things to give up in order to return to that Faith? Is it only Rome that needs to travel back in time and un-define things, repudiate things, etc.?
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One thing that definitely needs to go is the invocation of Photius as a “saint”.
 
Matariel said:
One thing that definitely needs to go is the invocation of Photius as a “saint”.
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Not that I don’t appreciate your point of view, truly, but I’m more concerned with what Orthodox Christians themselves are proposing to “give up.” Obviously a Catholic would have an opinion about what they should be willing to do, but that doesn’t really help 🙂
 
SonofMonica said:
Not that I don’t appreciate your point of view, truly, but I’m more concerned with what Orthodox Christians themselves are proposing to “give up.” Obviously a Catholic would have an opinion about what they should be willing to do, but that doesn’t really help 🙂
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Oh… :o
 
Matariel said:
Really, though, would the Protestant denominations ever come to the same understanding of the Sacraments (number and meaning)? Would they ever reincorperate apostolic succession into their ordinations, for the sake of unity? I doubt it, sadly.
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In the last 10 years, ELCA many Lutheran pastors have, through Episcopal lines, returned to A.S. Now, regardless of what Catholics think of Anglican lines, these Lutherans thought enough of A.S. to do it. Are there Lutherans who are not willing? Yes, sadly, even though our confession supports A.S.
As for sacraments, Lutherans see these basic characteristics for a sacrament: instituted by Christ, sanctifying grace/ forgiveness of sins, a physical element. But for Lutherans, the numbering and designation of sacraments is not a closed issue. Most of us say 2, (Baptism, Eucharist), some like me say 3 (add confession/ Holy Absolution).
Frankly, I don’t see these as the tough issues (or as tough as some others, at least), but they would take some prayerful dialogue.

For other traditions, you may be right, I don’t know.
Jon
 
JonNC said:
In the last 10 years, ELCA many Lutheran pastors have, through Episcopal lines, returned to A.S. Now, regardless of what Catholics think of Anglican lines, these Lutherans thought enough of A.S. to do it.
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But aren’t these lines of apostolic succession diluted by invalid ordinations of women?
 
I hope that all catholics would read Louis Bouyer’s book, “Spirit and forms of Protestantism”, …one would see how it is explained to catholics that protestantism isn’t really alive so much as the moravian pietism of the Wesleys, …I’m catholic but have been ‘saved’, and that makes my appreciation of my baptism (Roman catholic) so much more. There is a form of fundalmentalism amongst catholics who enjoy the protestant-catholic debate , so much so its almost like politics in the U.S. which according to Louis Bouyer is errant. What the world needs is more saints like him to build the bridge of Truth and Love for all unity. …hey, plus we need the music of noncatholics, very much more progressive and relevant, that would bring evangelization another tool amongst catholics.
 
Matariel said:
But aren’t these lines of apostolic succession diluted by invalid ordinations of women?
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Not sure that “dilute” is the right word. GKC could help with that more than me.
My point was directed at your question about the willingness of Protestants. In some traditions, the willingness is there, is all I’m saying.

Jon
 
Harpazo said:
Glory to Jesus Christ!

For the time that I was Catholic, I was always extremely hopeful of reunion between the two Churches, but then reality had to hit. In talking with a few Catholic priests about it, they said it would take a very long time. From their perspective, each Orthodox Church (there are about 15, I believe) would have to reunite to Rome individually. However, now as an Orthodox (well, almost :)) it would be much easier if Rome just united with us. I believe Ravenna did show some steps in the right direction. Vatican II sought to return ecclesialogy to a more collegial manner. After all, as Cardinal Ratzinger wrote in the '70s I believe, that Rome should not expect anything from the Eastern Churches than was in the first millennium before the schism.

But as others have said, it took a while for the schism to take place and it will take a while to heal it. :o I think there will be reunion between the Chalcedonian and Non-Chalcedonian Orthodox in our lifetime before there will be between Rome and the Orthodox. But that’s just one man’s opinion.👍

In Christ,
Andrew
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The Eastern Orthodox Churches will likely unite with their regional Churches, before considering re-uniting with the Holy See. Likewise, Protestant leaders will have reconcile with their fellow Protestant leaders before reuniting with either EO or the CC.
 
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