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Ignatius
Guest
47 contains the following ayah (verse): “When you encounter the unbelievers, . . . strike off their heads” The Qur’anic Arabic terms are generally straightforward: With little variation, scholars have translated the verse as, "When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks. For centuries, leading Islamic scholars have interpreted this verse literally. The famous Iranian historian and Qur’an commentator Muhammad b. Jarir at-Tabari wrote that “striking at the necks” is simply God’s sanction of ferocious opposition to non-Muslims. Mahmud b. Umar az-Zamakhshari in a major commentary studied for centuries by Sunni religious scholars, suggested that any prescription to “strike at the necks” commands to avoid striking elsewhere so as to confirm death and not simply wound.Ignatius;12520658 said:
SURA 2:191 Slay them wherever ye find them
Sura 9:123 Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers
Sura 48:29 Those who follow Mohamed are ruthless to the unbelievers
The Hadith: He (Abu Hurayah) says: “The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say, O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.”
I thought so dear friend
Might I humbly suggest you read in context. If we all read the Books like the way you propose then the God of Christianity also proposed this:
Be fair and be just dear friend
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I was simply quoting those Qur’anic verses cited by the Islamic State in justification of their current actions. If the verses are not being used accurately then your argument, my dear brother, is with the Islamic State, not I.
Blessed is the spot, and the house, and the place, and the city, and the heart, and the mountain, and the refuge, and the cave, and the valley, and the land, and the sea, and the island, and the meadow where mention of God hath been made, and His praise glorified.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Mind linking the site from which you found ISIS using said verses to justify their actions?
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Ignatius
Guest
Really, you don’t watch the news, read newspapers or know how to use Google?
Obedience to the Quran is the reason given by Boko Haram, Islamic State, al-Gama’a al-Islamiyya, Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, and scores of other Islamist groups give for the terror instilled in others by beheading and other barbaric acts, which is given as the reason for these acts.
Here are a couple of the many mainstream news source articles documenting this as the reason given by these groups…
ibtimes.co.uk/reason-behind-isis-beheadings-terror-1461513
newsmax.com/Newsfront/ISIS-beheading-Quran-command/2014/09/03/id/592381/
There is no question as to their justification for these actions, that is why they video and broadcast them.
In the future, please use this link to verify such universally known information yourself:
google.com
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oldcatholicguy
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Yes, I know how to use google. That’s how I found the article from which you copied but didn’t bother to credit was written back in '05 (prior to ISIS coming to the world stage), was about beheadings by Islamist in general and the practice of beheading enemies in Islam, and that what you cited without crediting wasn’t given in the context of “see this is what they say” but in the context of disproving the idea put forth by some scholars and organizations that there is nothing about beheading in the Quran. The article also went on to discuss how it is the shock value that the Islamists are after and not the religious requirement (which is what I believe you put forth) as to why they behead people and then go and justify it with the Quran.
But that’s all besides the point. You defended your citation (once again without credit to the author) as being what ISIS has claimed. You therefore should be able to cite where ISIS has used what you cited. This shouldn’t be too hard given you cut and pasted from somewhere. I’m sure you can use an internet search engine to find your source again if you didn’t bookmark it.
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Ignatius
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So you already knew that was the reason given by Boko Haram, etc. before you denied it?
Denying what you know to be True is really no way to carry on a conversation, my friend.
Again, I was merely citilg those Qur’anic verses used by the Islamic State, Boko Haram, et in justification of their actions. If the verses are not being used accurately then your argument is with the Islamic State, not I. There is no question as to how they justify these actions.
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oldcatholicguy
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Um, the only thing I’ve denied in our conversation is your faulty argument that Islam teaches that Muslims have to either convert or kill non-Muslims. I did this prior to your out of context and misattributed quotations (first misattributed to ISIS and now to Boko Haram; the author of the article from which you cut and pasted the quotes is not a member or representative of either group) from the Quran by pointing out the concept of “dhimma.” This concept of “dhimma” within Islamic theology invalidates your argument of “convert or die are the only options” even if we use the most simplistic and shallow understanding of Islam.
As for the quotations themselves, you’ve claimed that ISIS has used them to justify their actions. I’m still waiting for you to provide the link to the source from which you cut and pasted the quotations which led you to believe that ISIS has done what you claimed. I would also request that at some point you properly acknowledge the author of the quote you keep trying to attribute to ISIS and now Boko Haram. Unlike you or I, he actually took the effort to become qualified in the field and should be properly cited when referenced.
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cmodrmac
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the Christians are in a very difficult situation -in Syria most have sided with Assad as the Syrian government has allowed them to practice in relative peace-ISIS and other Jihadists view them not only as unbelievers but as friends of the Syrian government thus a tough spot
Their really does not exist a plethora of “tolerant” Muslims -if so where are they? maybe the UAE and Oman ?
I think the stage is set for the disappearance of Christianity in the MIddle east with exception of those in Israel
the USA can not fix it
Their really does not exist a plethora of “tolerant” Muslims -if so where are they? maybe the UAE and Oman ?
I think the stage is set for the disappearance of Christianity in the MIddle east with exception of those in Israel
the USA can not fix it
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Ignatius
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You clearly denied, and are apparently still denying that Islamic State and other Islamist terrorist groups use those Qur’anic verses as their justification for their terrorist actions. There is no question as to how they justify beheadings, etc.
If the verses are not being used appropriately then your argument is with the Islamic State, not I.
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oldcatholicguy
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No, what I am doing is deny that those verses and the way they are presented are from a statement issued by ISIS. I’m doing so because my gut feeling is that you randomly searched the internet for such verses, cut and pasted from an article you didn’t bother to read, and then presented them here as coming from ISIS because you assume that ISIS uses those verses. All that it would take to resolve this would be for you to link the source from where you got those verses in order to show that it came from a statement given by ISIS or one of its members.
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Ignatius
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There is no question as to how they justify beheading, etc.
If you want to inform yourself, watch some of the videos they’ve put out you will see the Truth of it for yourself.
Of course if you don’t want to know it then you can remain oblivious to the reality of it.
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oldcatholicguy
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My request for you to link your initial source for the quotations you didn’t bother to properly credit should be a clue that I do wish to know. I’ll even make it obvious- Please link the source you cut and pasted the quotations from so that I may know what you know. I truly do not wish to “remain oblivious.”
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Chaoticdiscerne
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Offering up my two cents, but it is sort of interesting that a lot of these extremist groups try to justify their actions by claiming they are defending Islam. They see the decline of their region into poverty and obscurity and the moral corruption they believe the West Brings and react violently to it, saying that if they went back to the basics, the “true” Islam then everything would be good (hence how you have groups that blew up the tomb of Jonah, a mosque, and other shrines because they see it as heretical despite being Muslim shrines).
ISIS is even more bizarre and ruthless than most other groups when you consider their declared goals are to establish a caliphate from southern Spain to India (though amusingly they neglect Indonesia which is the largest Muslim country in the world), relying on an idealized fiction that they call history since no such empire ever really existed stretching across these territories. They hate Syria and Egypt because they’re secularist governments, they dislike the Saudis because they believe they compromise Islam by being allied with Westerners, they hate Shia more than Westerners because they see them as heretics, and they happily kill Sunnis for not following ISIS’s ideology. When ISIS declared a new caliphate most Muslim scholars responded by condemning this act, which is the equivalent of someone like Joseph Kobe declaring himself Pope.
Its an example in my view of when disenfranchised groups feel things would be better if they returned to an older, purer, idealized golden age (World War II Germany and Italy both come to mind) they can be led to violence and evil.
Just my (name removed by moderator)ut, as a poli sci and history major I find this area of study interesting and I always like to learn about other religions because the more I learn about other faiths it helps me know my own better.
ISIS is even more bizarre and ruthless than most other groups when you consider their declared goals are to establish a caliphate from southern Spain to India (though amusingly they neglect Indonesia which is the largest Muslim country in the world), relying on an idealized fiction that they call history since no such empire ever really existed stretching across these territories. They hate Syria and Egypt because they’re secularist governments, they dislike the Saudis because they believe they compromise Islam by being allied with Westerners, they hate Shia more than Westerners because they see them as heretics, and they happily kill Sunnis for not following ISIS’s ideology. When ISIS declared a new caliphate most Muslim scholars responded by condemning this act, which is the equivalent of someone like Joseph Kobe declaring himself Pope.
Its an example in my view of when disenfranchised groups feel things would be better if they returned to an older, purer, idealized golden age (World War II Germany and Italy both come to mind) they can be led to violence and evil.
Just my (name removed by moderator)ut, as a poli sci and history major I find this area of study interesting and I always like to learn about other religions because the more I learn about other faiths it helps me know my own better.
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