Christian?

[The_GreyPilgrim]

It one time God choose to show his face and another time not.

Pardon me but your explaination does not follow with scripture.

In Exodus 33:20 God tells Moses "you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live."

This is after v. 11 Did Moses do something between v. 11 and 20 to lose God’s favor? If so where in the bible does it say this?

If Moses didn’t do anything to lose God’s favor from v. 11 to 20 then that would mean that Moses never had the priviledge to see God’s face to begin with.

So which is it?

 

[FCEGM]

Moses comes to mind. We are not all 100% alike so its true we can’t look like God’s twin, but that does not mean that God does not look a whole lot like us. [etc., etc., etc.]

You are reading the anthropmorphisms employed in Scripture far too literally. Man is made in God’s image because man has an immortal and intellectual soul, and thus is able to know himself and know God - he has been created to know God. Mormonism’'s understanding of God is that He is subject to physical limitations and thus is capable of change.

However, God can’t do what it is against His Divine Nature to do (or be); e.g., for God, Who is Goodness, it is impossible for Him to do (or be) evil; for God, Who is Just, it is impossible for Him to be unjust; likewise, for God Who is Spirit (John 4:24), it is impossible by virtue of His being Uncreated Spirit, to require something outside of Himself for His own existence, namely matter. This we believe is the testimony of Scripture and this is the testimony of the Church from the earliest times.

It is possible for us to share and partake in the Divine Nature by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by anything inherent in the composition of our material being. It is only because our material being has a human soul which is immaterial and immortal that it is able by grace to be transformed to an image of the Incarnate Son. As creatures of flesh and blood by God’s design, we require matter for our existence; angels, beings solely of spirit, do not; this is a sign of the superabundant creativity of the Divine Trinity. God, then, does not require material being; in fact, it is counter His Divine, Self-Existent, Immutable Nature.

God’s immutability and His simplicity go hand in hand - as do all His attributes. He is not composed of parts, therefore not of matter. If He were contained by matter then He would be subject to forces outside of Himself and would be contingent, i.e., in order to exist He would need something outside of Himself to compose and contain His Being (that is a definition of us, not of God). All matter is subject to change, but God is UNchanging. God Who IS Being and Who has revealed Himself to be the Creator of all that is can not Himself be subject to the limitations of matter. If He were composed of “parts” this would automatically makes Him subject to change and to something outside of Himself; God, then, would not be the Necessary Being Who calls everything into existence; but, rather, what is outside of Himself (matter) is what has become necessary for Him to exist - a complete contradiction of Divinity. He is absolutely independent of the external limitations imposed by a material subject (a body) in and by which He would act.

If He were subject to change, then He would not be perfect since material bodies (including our own) set limits. Having bodies means we can’t move in an instant to where our thought would bring us. It means that we are subject to change, thus decay. Of course, by the redemptive grace in and through Christ Jesus we can be brought out of what our bodies have fallen heir to in the sin of Adam and raised to participation with our resurrected bodies in the supernatural gifts that pertain to a new life in glory. But that is only because the Immaterial, Unchanging, Uncreated God Who IS Existence Himself can raise us beyond our human, material frailty.

 

[teancum79]

Pardon me but your explaination does not follow with scripture.

In Exodus 33:20 God tells Moses "you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live."

This is after v. 11 Did Moses do something between v. 11 and 20 to lose God’s favor? If so where in the bible does it say this?

If Moses didn’t do anything to lose God’s favor from v. 11 to 20 then that would mean that Moses never had the priviledge to see God’s face to begin with.

So which is it?

It’s hard to say, (one of those places that reinforces that the Bible is not perfect).

I think that something happened or that someone did not copy things down as well as they should.

 

[teancum79]

You are reading the anthropmorphisms employed in Scripture far too literally. Man is made in God’s image because man has an immortal and intellectual soul, and thus is able to know himself and know God - he has been created to know God. Mormonism’'s understanding of God is that He is subject to physical limitations and thus is capable of change.

However, God can’t do what it is against His Divine Nature to do (or be); e.g., for God, Who is Goodness, it is impossible for Him to do (or be) evil; for God, Who is Just, it is impossible for Him to be unjust; likewise, for God Who is Spirit (John 4:24), it is impossible by virtue of His being Uncreated Spirit, to require something outside of Himself for His own existence, namely matter. This we believe is the testimony of Scripture and this is the testimony of the Church from the earliest times.

It is possible for us to share and partake in the Divine Nature by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by anything inherent in the composition of our material being. It is only because our material being has a human soul which is immaterial and immortal that it is able by grace to be transformed to an image of the Incarnate Son. As creatures of flesh and blood by God’s design, we require matter for our existence; angels, beings solely of spirit, do not; this is a sign of the superabundant creativity of the Divine Trinity. God, then, does not require material being; in fact, it is counter His Divine, Self-Existent, Immutable Nature.

God’s immutability and His simplicity go hand in hand - as do all His attributes. He is not composed of parts, therefore not of matter. If He were contained by matter then He would be subject to forces outside of Himself and would be contingent, i.e., in order to exist He would need something outside of Himself to compose and contain His Being (that is a definition of us, not of God). All matter is subject to change, but God is UNchanging. God Who IS Being and Who has revealed Himself to be the Creator of all that is can not Himself be subject to the limitations of matter. If He were composed of “parts” this would automatically makes Him subject to change and to something outside of Himself; God, then, would not be the Necessary Being Who calls everything into existence; but, rather, what is outside of Himself (matter) is what has become necessary for Him to exist - a complete contradiction of Divinity. He is absolutely independent of the external limitations imposed by a material subject (a body) in and by which He would act.

If He were subject to change, then He would not be perfect since material bodies (including our own) set limits. Having bodies means we can’t move in an instant to where our thought would bring us. It means that we are subject to change, thus decay. Of course, by the redemptive grace in and through Christ Jesus we can be brought out of what our bodies have fallen heir to in the sin of Adam and raised to participation with our resurrected bodies in the supernatural gifts that pertain to a new life in glory. But that is only because the Immaterial, Unchanging, Uncreated God Who IS Existence Himself can raise us beyond our human, material frailty.

I know this is a common thought in many churches , but I don’t see the scriptures supporting such a notion.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

It’s hard to say, (one of those places that reinforces that the Bible is not perfect).

I think that something happened or that someone did not copy things down as well as they should.

So you are saying that the bible contradicts itself?

You are saying that the Holy Spirit would put His stamp on error?

Or is it your interpretation that is flawed?

 

[teancum79]

So you are saying that the bible contradicts itself?

You are saying that the Holy Spirit would put His stamp on error?

Or is it your interpretation that is flawed?

Yes the Bible does contradict itself several times.

No the Holy Spirit would not “put his stamp” on error (though he would endorse those aspects which are correct".

I’m pretty sure my interpretation is right as it is consistent with other scriptures.

 

[FCEGM]

I know this is a common thought in many churches , but I don’t see the scriptures supporting such a notion.

And yet Scripture is quite clear (and human reason agrees). James 1:17 says succinctly:

“In God there is no change or shadow of alteration.”

Other verses attest the same:

“They * shall perish, but thou shalt continue: and they shall all grow old as a garment. And as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: but thou art the selfsame and thy years shall not fail” Hebrew 1:10-12 and Psalm 101:26-28.*

“For I am the Lord, and I change not.” Malachi 3:6

“. . .I am God, not man, the Holy One in your midst. . .” Hosea 11:9

“God is not a man, to lie, nor a son of man, to withdraw.” Numbers 23:19

“To whom can you compare me, or who is my equal? says the Holy One.” Isaiah 40:25

“Yahweh is the everlasting God. . .” Isaiah 40:28.

“”. . .I am God, and there is no other God, and there is none like me.: Isaiah 46: 9

“Before the mountains were born, before the earth and the world came to birth, from eternity to eternity you are God.” Psalm 90:2

Psalm 139:7-12

“. . .the heavens, the highest of the heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple built by me!” 1 Kgs. 8:27

‘"This is what you are to say to the Israelites: "I AM has sent me to you.’" Exodus 3:14

“‘Before Abraham was made, I AM.’” John 8:58

“God is spirit.” John 4:24

So, how do you reconcile your LDS interpretation of Scripture with the perfection, the immutability, the spiritual nature of God? Do you believe God is perfect and unchanging? If so, do you believe in one or more perfections? If there are more than one perfections (gods), how does one determine just what perfection is? If a god changes - even if it means he is growing in his power - when does he reach perfection? Or does he ever if there is more power to be gained?

Wouldn’t your belief come down to a belief that perfection is relative to the exalted being claiming it? IOW, this particular god’s body is a perfect fullness, but so is the god’s above him, ad infinitum. Thus there would be two - and more - gods who claim perfection, but not uniqueness. This is contradictory to the testimony of Sacred Scripture which clearly proclaims the Uniqueness and Oneness of God, e.g., Ex. 20:2-3; Deut. 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; Isaiah 45:5; 1 Cor. 8:4; Eph. 4:5-6; John 17:3. And contradictory to the Book of Mormon itself: Alma 11:26-31; Moroni 8:18; Mormon 9:9-10.

But, Christians - as the Jews before them - know God is Perfect (He is Perfection Himself) and Unique; since He is Perfection there is, then, perforce, nothing of His Nature that could at some point not have been perfect; thus matter, which is something that is subject to change, could not be part of His Perfect Nature.

Now, humans may share in His perfection by the grace won for us in Christ. What we can never be is what God is in Himself. By His grace He allows us to participate in the perfection of His Divinity, but it is never ours on our own since we are creatures, creatures who change and require matter for our existence; God, otoh, does not have this requirement for His own Existence, since He is Existence Itself and never could have this requirement by virtue of His Being Perfect, Simple, and Omnipresent.

Here is an early Church Father, St. Irenaeus (ca A.D. 140 - ca. A.D. 202), second bishop of Lyons, France, witnessing to the teaching of the Church from the beginning:

• “To create is proper to the kindness of God; but to be created is proper to the nature of man.”

• “God differs from man in this, that God makes, but man is made. Surely that which makes is always the same; but that which is made must receive a beginning, a middle, addition and increase. God, indeed, creates well; and man is well-created. God certainly if perfect in everything, being equal and similar to Himself, inasmuch as He is all light, all mind, all substance, the source of all good; and man truly receives advancement and increase towards God.”

• “Of His own accord and by His own power He made all things and arranged and perfected them; and His will is the substance of all things. He alone, then, is found to be God. . .”

• “Nor is He moved by anyone; rather, freely and by His word He made all things. For He alone is Lord, He alone is Creator, He alone is Father, He alone contains all and commands all to exist.”

• “Far removed is the Father of all from those things which operate among men, the affections and the passions. He is simple, not composed of parts, without structure, altogether like and equal to Himself alone. He is all mind, all spirit, all thought, all intelligence, all reason, all ear, all eye, all light, all fountain of every good; and this is the manner in which the religious and the pious are accustomed to speak of God.”

 

[po18guy]

huh?

He is speaking of those who follow or study a variety of "prophets, “philosophers” and intellectuals, and do no more than lump Jesus in with them. (if I’m reading Ralph’s mind correctly).

Christ’s peace.

 

[teancum79]

FCEGM are we the offspring of God?

 

[ralphinal]

He is speaking of those who follow or study a variety of "prophets, “philosophers” and intellectuals, and do no more than lump Jesus in with them. (if I’m reading Ralph’s mind correctly).

Christ’s peace.

Be careful reading my mind: it can be a dark and scary place best travelled in groups

You are correct: Jesus is more than Gahndi, Einstein, Aquinas, et al.

 

[FCEGM]

FCEGM are we the offspring of God?

No. We are His creatures, and by His grace can become His adopted children in Christ, the Father’s Only Son.

Is your question the extent of your response to mine?

 

[teancum79]

No. We are His creatures, and by His grace can become His adopted children in Christ, the Father’s Only Son.

Is your question the extent of your response to mine?

No. My question was about how you understand the Bible again here we disagree on a small bit significant point. Paul refers to us as the offspring of God. There are many references to adoption into God’s family by Christ, but also others like ACTS 17 which imply a direct parent child relationship. In that relationship we are God’s children we look like him and can grow up as well.

 

[FCEGM]

No. My question was about how you understand the Bible again here we disagree on a small bit significant point. Paul refers to us as the offspring of God. There are many references to adoption into God’s family by Christ, but also others like ACTS 17 which imply a direct parent child relationship. In that relationship we are God’s children we look like him and can grow up as well.

Ah, but being a “child of God” isn’t the same thing as being His offspring! Paul, in quoting Greek writers, is showing them that these Greeks have already - and naturally, through the use of their reason - come to the realization that man is made in God’s image and thus is able to know Him. Here he is saying that a child of God is one who was brought into existence through the power of God - “in whom we live and move and have our being.” Nowhere does Paul say or imply that we are physically God’s “offspring”.

Further, in Romans 6:3-6, Paul tells us precisely how we fully become children of God - through our baptism into Christ’s death and resurrection, and not through generation.

It’s interesting that you choose Acts 17 as an example of your belief since it directly refutes the LDS idea that our physical bodies are copies of God’s. For, just what were the statues of the Greek gods if not fashioned after the bodies of men? But here we have St. Paul saying that "we have no excuse for thinking that the deity looks like anything in gold, silver or stone that has been carved and designed by man. Have you ever seen a ancient Greek statue of Poseidon?

 

[teancum79]

Ah, but being a “child of God” isn’t the same thing as being His offspring! Paul, in quoting Greek writers, is showing them that these Greeks have already - and naturally, through the use of their reason - come to the realization that man is made in God’s image and thus is able to know Him. Here he is saying that a child of God is one who was brought into existence through the power of God - “in whom we live and move and have our being.” Nowhere does Paul say or imply that we are physically God’s “offspring”.

Further, in Romans 6:3-6, Paul tells us precisely how we fully become children of God - through our baptism into Christ’s death and resurrection, and not through generation.

It’s interesting that you choose Acts 17 as an example of your belief since it directly refutes the LDS idea that our physical bodies are copies of God’s. For, just what were the statues of the Greek gods if not fashioned after the bodies of men? But here we have St. Paul saying that "we have no excuse for thinking that the deity looks like anything in gold, silver or stone that has been carved and designed by man. Have you ever seen a ancient Greek statue of Poseidon?

Ah so another one of those Paul did not mean anything close to what he said. Sorry not buying that… Why is it that Paul means just what he says half the time and something 100% different the other half?

 

[FCEGM]

Ah so another one of those Paul did not mean anything close to what he said. Sorry not buying that… Why is it that Paul means just what he says half the time and something 100% different the other half?

Nooooo. He means what he says, but as a Mormon you have great difficulties understanding his meaning.

Still waiting for answer to my question regarding God’'s perfection. . . . .

 

[teancum79]

Nooooo. He means what he says, but as a Mormon you have great difficulties understanding his meaning.

Still waiting for answer to my question regarding God’'s perfection. . . . .

God is perfect so is Christ. We through Christ can also become perfect.

 

[FCEGM]

God is perfect so is Christ. We through Christ can also become perfect.

Has God always been perfect?

 

[teancum79]

I don’t know.

I’m sure this will result with some same yesterday today and forever bit, but I see nothing there that says God never was something before he was God. All of which is a bit beyond or ability to comprehend therefore not something the scriptures talk about much.

I don’t remember who said it first but the idea of:
“I never kissed my wife before we were married, before we where married she was not my wife.” fits here.

 

[FCEGM]

I don’t know.

But Christians do know - and any true seeker after God knows this. If God isn’t Perfection Itself, then he isn’t God and we’re not interested.

I’m sure this will result with some same yesterday today and forever bit, but I see nothing there that says God never was something before he was God.

“Some yesterday and forever bit” - you so lightly dismiss Scripture’s testimony?! So, if Scripture doesn’t say God was never a tomato, I am free to posit that He once was?

All of which is a bit beyond or ability to comprehend therefore not something the scriptures talk about much.

Actually man can naturally come to this knowledge, i.e., without direct revelation. For instance, Aristotle, the great pagan philosopher came to this knowledge of God - which, btw, is why St. Paul thought he could speak to the Greeks and employ their philosophers to move their minds to the Mystery of the Incarnation.

As for Scripture, Christ Himself tells us of God’s perfection when He tells us to be “perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect”. Scripture expresses God’s perfection in its testimony of His Holiness, which means God is set apart from mankind. He is of a completely other order than the beings of this world. God’s perfection transcends all created perfections and is the only necessary perfection, it is unique because He is unique. His works are perfect and are performed to draw men to perfection, i.e., we are to be transformed into being “partakers” of God’s holiness - as St. Peter writes, “of His divine nature”; but, can only be perfect if we are made so by God’s grace; iow, perfection is not something we have in ourselves.

We, unlike God, do change as we are transformed by His Holy Spirit vivifying our spirit. Thus He is always God and we never will be equal to Him even when we reach the degree of perfection He has deigned to bestow upon each soul in glory. We cannot ever say that at some point we have arrived at a degree of perfection God reached before He went on to greater perfection; He has always been and will always be absolutely Perfect without change in that Perfection. Also, we cannot arrive at the fullness of God’s perfection because He is Infinitely Perfect and remains unknowable in the totality of His Infinite Being even to those in glory.

I don’t remember who said it first but the idea of:
“I never kissed my wife before we were married, before we where married she was not my wife.” fits here.

Actually, it doesn’t. “Your wife” didn’t change to a different person upon marriage. Now, “your wife” can grow in wisdom, in womanly attributes, in being a good kisser. But, God, doesn’t change or grow - being perfect He has no need to. It is His children Who change because of His divine grace He has bestowed upon them.

 

[teancum79]

But Christians do know - and any true seeker after God knows this. If God isn’t Perfection Itself, then he isn’t God and we’re not interested.

“Some yesterday and forever bit” - you so lightly dismiss Scripture’s testimony?! So, if Scripture doesn’t say God was never a tomato, I am free to posit that He once was?

Actually man can naturally come to this knowledge, i.e., without direct revelation. For instance, Aristotle, the great pagan philosopher came to this knowledge of God - which, btw, is why St. Paul thought he could speak to the Greeks and employ their philosophers to move their minds to the Mystery of the Incarnation.

As for Scripture, Christ Himself tells us of God’s perfection when He tells us to be “perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect”. Scripture expresses God’s perfection in its testimony of His Holiness, which means God is set apart from mankind. He is of a completely other order than the beings of this world. God’s perfection transcends all created perfections and is the only necessary perfection, it is unique because He is unique. His works are perfect and are performed to draw men to perfection, i.e., we are to be transformed into being “partakers” of God’s holiness - as St. Peter writes, “of His divine nature”; but, can only be perfect if we are made so by God’s grace; iow, perfection is not something we have in ourselves.

We, unlike God, do change as we are transformed by His Holy Spirit vivifying our spirit. Thus He is always God and we never will be equal to Him even when we reach the degree of perfection He has deigned to bestow upon each soul in glory. We cannot ever say that at some point we have arrived at a degree of perfection God reached before He went on to greater perfection; He has always been and will always be absolutely Perfect without change in that Perfection. Also, we cannot arrive at the fullness of God’s perfection because He is Infinitely Perfect and remains unknowable in the totality of His Infinite Being even to those in glory.

Actually, it doesn’t. “Your wife” didn’t change to a different person upon marriage. Now, “your wife” can grow in wisdom, in womanly attributes, in being a good kisser. But, God, doesn’t change or grow - being perfect He has no need to. It is His children Who change because of His divine grace He has bestowed upon them.

Oh I see so if the scripture says what you like its a how dare I question it, but if you don’t like it than you simply claim that it means something different than what it says.

That is a very easy way to go.

I’m more interesting in the truth. One of them being that humans are God’s children not mere animals.