Christianity and The Truth

[Namesake]

Yes…I just don’t believe that the Church is what she claims to be.

I don’t know why I came here. I just thought I would try one more time to see if I could understand it.

I guess the Church is a deciever.

Having been Christian for 60 years I have come to understand your position. Christianity is very arrogant in that Christians are indoctrinated with the dogmatic idea that it is the only way, the only truth. After studying religions for many years I conclude that there is no one way regardless of what the Bible says.

It would be much better in my opinion for Christians to be more accepting of other religions. But that can’t happen because of what the Bible says, and according to Catholicism, that there is only one way. I find that incredibly arrogant and I don’t believe it. I can’t believe that a loving and merciful God would allow so many people on Earth to be such good, moral, and kind people yet be so wrong and therefore doomed to eternal damnation. That simply defies rational thinking.

I wouldn’t necessarily agree that the Church is a deceiver, just that Christians are themselves deceived. I admit that those might very well be the same thing though.

I agree with you Neil.

 

[VociMike]

I can’t believe that a loving and merciful God would allow so many people on Earth to be such good, moral, and kind people yet be so wrong and therefore doomed to eternal damnation. That simply defies rational thinking.

I hope you weren’t Catholic for those 60 years, because the Catholic Church does not teach what you cannot believe.

 

[Namesake]

I hope you weren’t Catholic for those 60 years, because the Catholic Church does not teach what you cannot believe.

I think the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church, no?

I think the Church teaches that Catholics should pray for the conversion of Jews, no?

Maybe I am wrong. Does the Church teach that Hindus follow a right path? Or for that matter, does the Church teach that Protestants follow a right path?

Or does the Church teach that she alone has the complete truth and everyone else is in some way wrong about their faith?

 

[ralphinal]

I can’t believe that a loving and merciful God would allow so many people on Earth to be such good, moral, and kind people yet be so wrong and therefore doomed to eternal damnation. That simply defies rational thinking.

The fact that it is irrational is one of the reasons it is not taught. The Catholic Church says that if you KNOW that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ who is the Second Person of the Trinity and then choose to walk away, you are doomed. It does not say that being in another faith system, in and of itself will damn you. It has to be through no fault of their own that they do not know.

 

[ralphinal]

I think the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church, no?

Please see my previous post. It does not mean that all non-Catholics are going to hell.

I think the Church teaches that Catholics should pray for the conversion of Jews, no?

We should all pray that everyone be united with God in heaven one day. Yes, there are prayers for the conversion of Jews in some prayer books and on the Good Friday service, but it is not institutionally done at every mass.

Maybe I am wrong. Does the Church teach that Hindus follow a right path? Or for that matter, does the Church teach that Protestants follow a right path?

They follow a path that is not the one directly started by Christ, but that does not mean that they are on the “wrong” path. They are on a path, generally through no fault of their own and are therefore judged by God under a set of conditions different than I am. It does not make it easier or harder, just different. Can non-CAtholics go to heaven? Yes.

Or does the Church teach that she alone has the complete truth and everyone else is in some way wrong about their faith?

Not wrong, but incomplete. Imagine that you are taking a physics test. You are to write out an event, showing the forces and the strengthes at each step. If you get all of the parts, you get 100%. Some of it you get 90% etc. This is similar to how we see other faiths: some have 90%, some have 10% of the Truth. We see the Catholic Church as having the Fullness of Truth on Earth. Now, unlike that test, a 10% does not mean that you fail. It just shows that you have a limited understanding of the already limited understanding that we have for God.

 

[Namesake]

The fact that it is irrational is one of the reasons it is not taught. The Catholic Church says that if you KNOW that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ who is the Second Person of the Trinity and then choose to walk away, you are doomed. It does not say that being in another faith system, in and of itself will damn you. It has to be through no fault of their own that they do not know.

So then are people who reject Jesus and the Church, knowing what all the claims are, doomed? I mean, I understand that the RCC claims that Jesus founded the Church. I just do not believe that claim. Am I doomed?

 

[VociMike]

I think the Church teaches that there is no salvation outside the Church, no?

Yes, and she also teaches that those who truly seek God can be joined to that Church.

I think the Church teaches that Catholics should pray for the conversion of Jews, no?

We should pray for the conversion of all non-Catholics, because Catholicism holds the fullness of truth that God intended for humanity.

Maybe I am wrong. Does the Church teach that Hindus follow a right path? Or for that matter, does the Church teach that Protestants follow a right path?

From the Catechism:
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.
848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”

Or does the Church teach that she alone has the complete truth and everyone else is in some way wrong about their faith?

Yes, the Church does teach this. But this is a far cry from “doomed to eternal damnation” as you wrote.

 

[ralphinal]

So then are people who reject Jesus and the Church, knowing what all the claims are, doomed? I mean, I understand that the RCC claims that Jesus founded the Church. I just do not believe that claim. Am I doomed?

Knowing in this sense does not just mean being aware of the facts. Knowing means that you understand the claims and accept them to be true. NOw, some do not accept them because they find the evidence unacceptable. Some do not accept because they do not want to accept it. And some simply cannot help but not accept it for one reason or another.

The classic example of it is the story of Henry VIII, if you take the Catholic side only. Henry was quite knowledgeable about the faith. He simply refused to submit when he KNEW that he should. He then walked away. I know that there is more to it than that, but this gives an example.

At times, we are expected to work under faith alone. At other times, reason and faith together.

Why do you not accept the claim that Jesus founded the Church? Feel free to pm so as not to derail the thread.

 

[Namesake]

Yes, and she also teaches that those who truly seek God can be joined to that Church.

Herein you find the arrogance I mentioned. The phrase “truly seek God”.

We should pray for the conversion of all non-Catholics, because Catholicism holds the fullness of truth that God intended for humanity.

More arrogance…

Just what makes you believe that you know what God intended for humanity, ALL HUMANITY, ALL…? Again, incredible arrogance.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

Why do Christians assume that the Bible is the only valid scripture and other scriptures revealed by God thoughout the ages have no intrinsic value?

I’m no expert on anything else but I can answer this one! Look at the Golden Rule:

DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEN DO TO YOU.

This has been proven part of every major religion on Earth, even atheist believe it. It is taught to primary school students. This is etched on every human heart. God’s way of showing his love. So we see that all religions have close to the truth. (Judaism is the closest considering that they are one step behind us) But “love your neighbor as yourself” is very central to our faith, and some religions denoce this teaching. See? Hope I helped.

I am praying for you. That you might see love and kindness here and maybe, just maybe find the truth that every human thirst for.
“I am the living water” -Jesus Christ

 

[VociMike]

Herein you find the arrogance I mentioned. The phrase “truly seek God”

More arrogance…

Just what makes you believe that you know what God intended for humanity, ALL HUMANITY, ALL…? Again, incredible arrogance.

It’s only arrogance if it’s not true. That should be obvious.

Maybe the arrogance here is you thinking you know more about God’s ways then his Church knows about God’s ways. So you see, the arrogance charge can cut both ways.

 

[Namesake]

It’s only arrogance if it’s not true. That should be obvious.

Maybe the arrogance here is you thinking you know more about God’s ways then his Church knows about God’s ways. So you see, the arrogance charge can cut both ways.

Twisting the point around won’t work. The arrogance is the Christian view that only followers of Christ are correct. That arrogance is a one way street.

 

[VociMike]

Twisting the point around won’t work. The arrogance is the Christian view that only followers of Christ are correct. That arrogance is a one way street.

We’ve been over this already. It’s only arrogance if it’s not true. That should be obvious. So give your “arrogance” key a rest and demonstrate that Christianity, and in particular Catholicism, is not true.

 

[Namesake]

We’ve been over this already. It’s only arrogance if it’s not true. That should be obvious. So give your “arrogance” key a rest and demonstrate that Christianity, and in particular Catholicism, is not true.

The discussion was in the other direction. Why do Christians, especially Catholics, claim to have the one true Church? The only full truth?

Turn and twist as you will, you cannot escape the original question.

I say it’s because of passages in the bible that state exactly that. Furthermore the Church states that exactly. But that isn’t necessarily the truth to people who do not believe in the bible of what the Church teaches.

So why can’t Catholics be more accepting? Why so arrogant to believe that you alone have the truth? Just because? That’s what it looks like from the outside.

BTW, you challenge me to prove a negative. Can’t be done no way no how never!

 

[ralphinal]

If I may ask: What is truth? Is Truth subjective or objective? Can it vary from person to person, or is there only one Truth?

 

[Namesake]

If I may ask: What is truth? Is Truth subjective or objective? Can it vary from person to person, or is there only one Truth?

In religion truth is subjective of course…

 

[VociMike]

The discussion was in the other direction. Why do Christians, especially Catholics, claim to have the one true Church? The only full truth?

Turn and twist as you will, you cannot escape the original question.

Is “twist and turn” going to be the next overused phrase here? Give it a rest already.

Why does the Catholic Church claim to be (not have) the one true Church? Because it was founded by Christ, the one true God.

I say it’s because of passages in the bible that state exactly that. Furthermore the Church states that exactly. But that isn’t necessarily the truth to people who do not believe in the bible of what the Church teaches.

Truth is truth, plain and simple. Whether people believe it or not is an entirely different question.

So why can’t Catholics be more accepting? Why so arrogant to believe that you alone have the truth? Just because? That’s what it looks like from the outside.

So much error in such a short paragraph. What does that even mean, “accepting”? Who says the Church alone has “the truth” (whatever that means). Perhaps you meant the fullness of truth. And “just because”? You really think that’s the reason? Let’s claim this just because we can? That shows quite a contempt for your opponent (and it is clear that you consider the Catholic Church your opponent).

BTW, you challenge me to prove a negative. Can’t be done no way no how never!

That’s a silly comment. Of course one could prove the Catholic Church to be false, if it was false. Simply present the evidence that the Catholic Church is not what she claims.

If I claimed to be Johnny Appleseed would you deny that one could prove I am not Johnny Appleseed?

 

[Namesake]

Is “twist and turn” going to be the next overused phrase here? Give it a rest already.

Why does the Catholic Church claim to be (not have) the one true Church? Because it was founded by Christ, the one true God.

Truth is truth, plain and simple. Whether people believe it or not is an entirely different question.

So much error in such a short paragraph. What does that even mean, “accepting”? Who says the Church alone has “the truth” (whatever that means). Perhaps you meant the fullness of truth. And “just because”? You really think that’s the reason? Let’s claim this just because we can? That shows quite a contempt for your opponent (and it is clear that you consider the Catholic Church your opponent).

That’s a silly comment. Of course one could prove the Catholic Church to be false, if it was false. Simply present the evidence that the Catholic Church is not what she claims.

If I claimed to be Johnny Appleseed would you deny that one could prove I am not Johnny Appleseed?

Just because the RCC claims to be the one true Church doesn’t make much of a case. Negatives cannot be proved. Look it up. But neither can you prove that the Catholic Church is the one true Church other than by claiming that it’s true or citing some scripture, and I can’t accept that as proof.

In any case, proof isn’t necessary in matters of faith. Catholics make claims that people of other faiths just do not accept as true regardless of how much Catholics demand that they are correct.

That is the issue here. Why do Catholics need to be so special? Why can’t a Hindu be just as special? I believe that they are. Or maybe a Hindu is even more correct. Is that possible?

 

[thirdn6]

I just do not accept that the Bible and the Catholic Church has the fulness of truth.

If that was the case, I would be able to totally accept the Catholic faith and not feel the need to find sprituality any place else.

My experience of being Catholic has been that it always leaves me feeling incomplete and I find that completeness in Hinduism.

Sorry…

Hi Neil LA. Peace.

Like you, I am no scholar. I am a mere construction worker sweating it out daily… who also is still struggling with my English. There are so many good people here- they’ll understand us.

So, you’ve been a… Catholic? Baptized Christian then, correct?
Did you know that to be a Christian is to believe in Jesus Christ?
That to believe in Jesus Christ is to believe in His words?
To believe in His words is to also believe in His teachings?
To believe in His teachings is to believe those people whom He, while on earth, spoke with?
To believe at those people demand the requirement of exclusive authority?
To admit the requirement of exclusive authority is to admit the necessity of believing just that group of people (we call Apostles and His successors) who hold that authority?
To believe that there is that exclusive group of people is to believe in the Catholic Church- the only church today that can date its foundation back to the time of Jesus)?
To believe in the Catholic Church is to believe in Her teachings?
To believe in Her teachings is the same as believing in the teachings of Jesus Christ himself, as well?
To believe in Jesus is to believe in absolute Truth?

Now, is the “feeling of completeness” or of feeling being complete or search of self-fulfillment a teaching of Jesus? Of the Catholic Church? If your answer is yes… then please learn more for it is quite the opposite! Else, you can not be a true Christian!

So please do before you say …you are being deceived. God bless.

 

[lynnareyno]

Namesake-
You said:

Just because the RCC claims to be the one true Church doesn’t make much of a case. Negatives cannot be proved. Look it up. But neither can you prove that the Catholic Church is the one true Church other than by claiming that it’s true or citing some scripture, and I can’t accept that as proof.

In any case, proof isn’t necessary in matters of faith. Catholics make claims that people of other faiths just do not accept as true regardless of how much Catholics **demand **that they are correct.

That is the issue here. Why do Catholics need to be so special? Why can’t a Hindu be just as special? I believe that they are. Or maybe a Hindu is even more correct. Is that possible?

First of all…Catholic do not demand anything from anyone. Catholics believe that our faith is true and other religions believe that their faith is true. Why does that make Catholics any more arrogant than others? I am so sick of the arrogance card being thrown at Catholics. If we didn’t believe in Catholicism then we would join another religion. And why demand proof from us? Are we asking proof from you? Why do you even care what we believe? Your eternal salvation, damnation or nothingness is between you and God. If you ask our opinion or the beliefs of the Catholic Church we will share them with you. But if you don’t believe in the Church, then why does it matter to you what it believes?
We are happy to answer any questions about our faith. But it’s very tedious and down right rude to give answers and then be told that those answers don’t count because you don’t believe in our scriptures. Believe whatever you want to, but don’t tell us Catholics what we believe. We are happy to share our beliefs with anyone and explain where our beliefs came from and what they mean. That is, if you want an honest intellectual discussion, not just an opportunity to rant and spout anti-Catholic rhetoric.
I love the Catholic Church because I believe that it is true, if I didn’t then I would ( and almost did) join another religion. That is fact not arrogance!